Hiring Competent Traders

[Guest OILFXPRO]

How does an investor hire competent trader?I am not asking how does one hire monkeys from Zulu land in South Africa.Primitive traders can not trade , they behave like monkeys from monkey land .

 

The mother of monkeys acts as a trading educator , and trading monkeys act as traders.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

How does an investor hire competent trader?I am not asking how does one hire monkeys from Zulu land in South Africa.Primitive traders can not trade , they behave like monkeys from monkey land .

 

The mother of monkeys acts as a trading educator , and trading monkeys act as traders.

 

Most traders have prmitive reactive patterns on live accounts.Most of you will not be able to follow systems and rules , and will revert to learned responses .

[Guest OILFXPRO]

Where do I find competent traders that can follow systems with 100 rules , not make mistakes IN REAL TIME ,executes trades flawlessley , is an an efficient processor of information in real time , and can handle a losing situation correctly?

 

How do I find them?We are not talking about amateurs and learners.

[zupcon 10]

Where do I find competent traders that can follow systems with 100 rules , not make mistakes IN REAL TIME ,executes trades flawlessley , is an an efficient processor of information in real time , and can handle a losing situation correctly?

 

How do I find them?We are not talking about amateurs and learners.

 

 

What attributes do these people need ? age, education, experience etc

 

Once thats defined maybe people could suggest ways of reaching them.

 

After that you need some sort of funnel to process applications and evaluate suitability

 

Most traders with a decent track record are going to be looking for capital, so unless you can compete you dont stand much chance of attracting talent. The only alternative is establishing some sort of development program where you proactively support non profitable traders in the hope that your investment pays off before the good ones inevitably leave you !

 

The fundemental problem with this idea is that the good people inevitably always leave once they have established a track record

 

You also have to be quite clear about why you want these people, do you want them to trade profitably, or are you just looking to replicate a prop shop type environment. Are you going to fully fund them, part fund them etc etc.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

The trader must be wired for trading , be very patient and disciplined .He must not have any of the following qualities

 

 

 

 

 

The incompetent trading idiot

 

Fire these idiots.only to see arrival of newer idiots

 

The monkey brain has been trained to react with stress responses in real time execution.These responses are not system responses , but the primitive brain responses.

 

The trading idiot is unfocused on trades , and is talking on mobile phone all day.he likes to drive on fast motorways , without concentrating on the road.

 

The trading idiot is losing concentration because his girlfriend is sitting on his lap ,

and they are playing love games whilst trading

 

The idiot thinks she will miss trades , so impatiently puts on silly trades

 

The trading idiot wants to put on 10 trades a day.clueless amateurs think this way .

 

The trading idiot was drinking and trading .

 

The trading idiot does not know the difference between low probability and high probability.

 

The trading idiot believes trends are only evident after the event.

 

The trading idiot is playing with computer games , during trading time.

 

The trading idiot is my wife , she disturbs me during trading time.

 

My girlfriend wants me to go shopping in middle of trading time.

 

Idiots have to take girlfriend for a day out , during trading time.

 

The trading idiot forgot to pay his Internet bill , failed to turn up for work.

 

Another idiot did not pay his electricity bill , failed to turn up for work.

 

Another idiot is replacing the modem during trading time.

 

A trading idiot is having hardware problems during trading time.

 

The trading idiot does not understand correlated pairs and instruments.She is clueless.

 

The idiot has a monkey brain , he will make mistakes on simple trade execution.

 

The idiot will buy at major resistances.

 

The idiot sells at major supports

 

The idiot has a great trade set up ready , but he is looking for a better entry and misses the great entry.

 

A high probability set up was ready , but the idiot misses entry or enters late.

 

The idiot recommends low probability trades , we get stuck in stupid trades and do not have energy to take on any more trades , just due to the idiot we lose high probability entry

 

The idiot will chase silly momentum trades , thinking a single move is a trend In place.

 

The idiot will put on late entries.

 

The selfish idiot wants to learn and manage for his own benefit ,not follow system for benefit of employer

 

The trading idiot can not and does not follow systems.

 

The idiot went for an afternoon nap (sleep ) , it is a regular practise in India.

 

The trading idiot is not trading the system , but the trading idiot is executing personal psychology and beliefs and biases.

 

The idiot keeps exiting trades early , to make his mood feel good. , after a drawdown period.He cuts his profits and misses 100 pips of profit by exiting early.

 

The idiot exits trades early because there is a emotional pussy in his head.There is fear in his mind about giving back the profits.

 

The trading idiot wants to take small profits , because she thinks and fears the market will not give him larger profit .She is not following the system , but she is trading her emotions.

 

The stupid idiot fell asleep at the desk and missed many trades.

 

The trading idiot claims to see system trades that do not exist

 

The idiot dwells on past trades and does execute current opportunities

 

The idiot Disappears on Skype for 5 minutes to 30 minutes , sometimes hours

 

The idiot Misses loads of system trades and creates chaos in trading operation

 

The trading idiot can not recognise trends .

 

The idiot is trading his emotions.

 

The idiot reacts to fear , but can not react to important price action on correlated pairs

 

The trading idiot does not understand the concept of a trend.

 

The trading idiot thinks he is right and wastes everybody's time arguing he is right.the idiot has a need to be right , he puts on arguments to show how clever he is .

 

Idiot gives stupid arguments and wastes valuable trading time

 

The silly idiot Is a nuisance during trading hours , puts on stupid arguments

 

The silly idiot puts on revenge trades

 

Idiot Puts on non system trades

 

Idiot Puts on counter trend trades

 

Does not like working for others

 

Has deep rooted beliefs ,ego and personality that works against employer.

 

Does not provide dedicated time , input and service to employer

 

Thinks he is smarter than the system and employer and wants to change everything and always keeps looking for other better set ups , but misses great set ups.

 

Puts on low probability trades and does not do adequate vetting of trading opportunities

 

The trading idiot believes in a 100% profitable system , with no losses.

 

The idiot has found a no loss profitable system.

 

The idiot has no common decency or etiquette

 

The idiot makes mistakes and disrupts the whole trading operation

 

The idiot repeats the same mistake over and over again

 

The idiot will keep chasing trades , despite being told not to chase.

 

The idiot wasted everybody's time and energies.

 

The idiot promised a lot , but delivered nothing.

 

The idiot talks about profits but delivers losses

 

The idiot does not take the next trade ,because last trade was a losing trade.

After a few losing trades , he acts like a bigger idiot and makes a bigger mess.

 

The idiot solves private issues during trading time

 

The idiot's mind wanders off all day , missing system trades and inputting Non system trades

 

The idiot sees no system trades , but trades actually exist.

 

The. Idiot left us with experiences of a trading idiot

 

Somebody teaches the idiot the right things , but the idiot does not want to listen.

 

The idiot trades on his whims and fancies and hallucinations

 

This idiot now wants to trade on his hallucinations or imaginary trades

 

The idiot has no discipline or patience

 

The idiot fears putting on trades , just cause he fears losses or has a drawdown period.

 

The idiot freezes at time of entry and is immobilized by beliefs and emotions

 

The idiot fears momentum trades or swing trades , and sometimes both types of trades and misses trades

 

The trading idiot hesitates to put on trades , due to fears and emotions , and misses trades

 

The trading idiot second guesses the system and misses trades

 

The trading idiot thinks the system is crap

 

The trading idiot has an ego that makes him a failure

 

The trading idiot is a genius on gann and has beliefs about it's profitability .She has

some hidden belief , she is a genius.

 

The trading idiot wants to contradict the system

 

This trading idiot is full of shit , his mind is full of crap.fire him.

 

The idiot of trading will contaminate execution with their own beliefs, egos , judgement ,opinions , comments , views ,fear , greed , hesitation with entries and other psychological issues and personal issues

 

The idiot misses trades

 

The idiot is trying to protect pips and as a result misses trades and does not take any more trades , he is practising loss aversion skills and messing up.

 

The idiot is late putting on trades , has late entries.

 

The idiot can predict the market , she knows which trades are going to be profitable.

 

The idiot is in a confused state of mind

 

The idiot will take close trades at a profit , and reenter the same move using another instrument.This idiot does not realise , he is chasing the same move he exited.

 

The idiot will see trends after the move is made , and it is too late to make any pips

 

The idiot has a need to be right , so he will delay entering trades , until he feels right about the trade ,As a result he enters late , and winning trade is turned into a loser.

 

The idiot will put on 50/50 trades on simple technical analysis set ups.

 

The idiot will put on trades after the daily range is exceeded. , and above the daily range continues.

 

The idiot trades before news , despite being asked not to put on trades before news.

 

The idiots trade during news , professional traders do not.

 

The amateur idiot knows it all.

 

The clueless idiot can remember all supports and resistances , except in real time they disappear out of his brain.

 

The idiot likes to catch three rabbits at same time , like put on 5 trades at same time , trade as an analyst Looking for trades ,manages 5 trades at same time and messes up on all tasks ,in real time and live account.she does not understand the human brain and it's limits to trade effectively.

 

The idiot hides his demo losses and other trading losses , until he is caught.

 

The idiot thinks every technical analysis set up is high probability set up.they have no edge , they are 50/50.

 

The idiot will miss important information from her charts , as she likes to to keep charts clean.She will mess up on real accounts , because important information is missing from her charts.

 

The idiot sees trades and executes trades during an ecb press conference.

 

The idiot sees trades before ecb and boe. , and would put on trades before and during theses conferences.

 

The idiot wants to pick and choose system trades.She misses the profitable system trades and picks the losing system trades.In a week when she should have made 250 pips , she lost 150 pips , a net loss of 400 pips.The idiot claims to make pips in real accounts.

 

The idiot is profitable on back tests , but can not replicate the trades in real time .

 

There is a cat in the brain of the idiot. , the pussy makes him exit trades on emotion.

 

The trading idiot thinks trading is a part time job , that he can do three jobs at same time.

 

The trading idiot thinks he can ask (for information-already supplied ) in real time causing execution delays.

 

The trading idiot starts celebrating christmas on February 1 , and messes up on live account due to lack of focus.

 

The trading idiot has biases , not to put on high probability trades.

 

The trading idiot never had any electricity problems , but only has these electricity problems after being hired.

 

The trading idiot has issues with credit card fraud , only during trading time and after being hired.

 

The trading idiot will press the wrong button.He will press the buy instead of a sell , in fast trending market.I pressed the wrong button , loses more money.

 

The idiot knows price action , but can not read it accurately in real time .

 

The idiot reads price action on 1 and 5 minutes.she can read price action on noise.

 

The idiot does not have the patience to wait for high probability entries, and will get excited and put on low probability entries.

 

..The trading idiot will buy at weak supports and sell at weak resistances .

 

The trading idiot is a trading educator who wants to teach everyone else how to trade ,

after blowing her account several times , and messing up on live accounts.

 

The trading idiot does not understand volatility and believes everything should be accurate to the pip , in technical analysis and price action .According to the trading idiot , crude oil should respect supports and resistances to the pip.

 

The trading idiot will buy tops of channels and sell bottoms of channels.

 

The trading idiot does not believe in indicators , she does not know how to use the tools correctly.

 

The trading idiot does not believe in moving averages , or how to use them correctly for a trading strategy.

 

The trading idiot has everything in his mind , she has the location of every moving average , indicator , supports , resistances , channels , trend lines and price action Her brain is processing information on 12 different instruments simultaneously , executing 4 trades on 4 instruments simultaneously and efficiently , and nothing is on the charts (but only in her brain) .She does this to keep her charts clean , the idiot wants to see price action in the ranging zone , that she is not supposed to trade in.Unfortunately she is messing up in real time.

 

The idiot see trends in ranging markets.

 

The idiot likes to trade in random 50/50 markets , without an edge , in ranging markets.

 

The idiot thinks the markets are wrong , counter trending is right thing to do.

 

The idiot can not separate clean price action from choppy price action , but knows everything about price action.

 

This idiot wants to educate the world and sell trading education.

 

The trading idiot after putting on a trade has to be right , and will not exit

Early if trade fails , because he has a need to be right on putting on the trade.

He can cut losses quickly.

 

The idiot lacks self motivation to learn. In evenings and weekends.

The idiot thinks real trading time is time to learn.

 

After 4 months of learning the system , the idiot does not know what position sizes to trade and how many tickets to open.

 

The idiot misses exiting a trade as per rules

 

The idiot forgets to put on stop losses

 

The idiot makes mistakes in real time and miscalculated stops

 

The idiot forgot to put on limit and targets

 

The idiot keeps forgetting the second break

 

The idiot expects to be taught in real time

 

The idiot does not understand news driven element of trend like set up ,

Where no real trend exits

 

The idiot is unable to identify false trend breakouts.

 

The idiot likes to mess around with tools on charts , instead of concentrating on trades.

[zupcon 10]

The trader must be wired for trading , be very patient and disciplined .He must not have any of the following qualities......

 

Some people believe that we get what we focus on, and if thats true, focussing on all of the negative attributes that you dont want possibly results in you getting negative results.

 

Personally, I dont buy that particular brand of bullshit, I'd rather try to understand the problem, and then try to find solutions.

 

There's a whole bunch of problems identified in your post but they are mostly just symptoms of a few bigger problems that you need to identify

 

For example..

 

Distractions such as people going out shopping, falling asleep, chatting on skype, ******* their girlfriend etc. Why is that happening ? If these guys where earning 10K a day would that still happen ? Perhaps these people lack disipline, or lack experiece of working in the type of environment required. Maybe they just require more supervision and monitoring. Can you remove these distractions ? can you supervise them more closely ? can you change the process in some way to ensure they are where they are supposed to be and engaged in watching the market, can you impose financial penalties if they arnt, can you incentivise them to modify their behaviour etc etc

 

People not following system rules... have they been sufficiently trained, can they correctly identify entries and exits retrospectively, can they identify system rules on a simulator perhaps played back at slower speeds than real time, perhaps intuitively they think the rules make no sense, perhaps they lack training, perhaps its just lack of focus, perhaps theyre afraid of failure, perhaps they dont understand how an edge plays out over time. Perhaps you need to take more steps to determine that they do understand system rules. This has to be a step by step process. How can you expect someone to trade a trend if they dont know what your definition of a trend is.

 

Perhaps you need better real time decision support systems, perhaps you need better visuals on charts to identify no trade area's, less cluttered charts etc etc

 

There's probably just 5 or 6 main problem area's. My gut reaction is that the people you are hiring are not traders, unless you can get a nice wedge together, you'll be stuck with that and you'll have to work within the constraints you have. However, the muppets that you are hiring are aware that markets can be traded and there's money to be made. Their expectations will be unrealistic. Thats your first task, ensure that they understand wots wot, and eliminate the nonsense and damage caused by reading garbage at places like the zoo.

 

Next job is to get some decent training materials together, focusing on each specific element of your system. Imliment this training one bit at a time, and walk them step by step through the process.

 

I suspect that you have failed to provide any objective metrics by which their performance can be evaluated (other than they made or lost money over a given period). The next step has to be putting those metrics together, and then evaluating them against those metrics, and providing feedback and training.

 

I suspect that they have no belief in the system. I suspect that the concepts on which the method has been based have not been explained to them, and that they have no quantatative evidence to indicate that the system actually works. If you claim that your trade entry has a 60% probability of gaining 10 pips before losing 8 pips, then force them to determine and prove to themselves that this is in fact correct.

 

I suspect that these people cant really see how their trading careers might potentially develop, I suspect that they are not being compensated adequately or fairly. You need some sort of structered development program which makes things clear to everyone involved whats expected, and what happens given in various scenarios etc

 

 

I also suspect that they are not adequately supervised or supported throughout the day. Someone needs to be on these peoples cases, remotely observing, or soliciting feedback etc. I suspect they know noones watching, and so they take the piss.

 

There's not enough financial motivation to make them pay attention, the rewards are not manifesting themselves as per there unrealistic expectations etc etc, so you'll have to impose some disipline.

 

If you do what I say you'll make some money, but the good ones will quit because they dont really need you, and theres usually a better deal to be negotiated elsewhere

[Guest OILFXPRO]

This guy is a genius that one could hire.

[zupcon 10]

This guy is a genius that one could hire.

 

I'm inclined to agree with him about the 2 system input constraint.

 

even two inputs is one more than you really need.

 

I'd probably hire him, but I suspect I dont have much I could offer him

[Guest OILFXPRO]

I'm inclined to agree with him about the 2 system input constraint.

 

even two inputs is one more than you really need.

 

I'd probably hire him, but I suspect I dont have much I could offer him

 

These genuises are amateurs ,

 

 

Enter at breach of 200 ma , even the turtles failed and lost out on this amateurish garbage.

[handle 10]

Wouldn't it be cheaper and more reliable to program a computer to follow the rules and let it run. Like an algo. Why hire people unless you need discretion?

[Guest OILFXPRO]

Wouldn't it be cheaper and more reliable to program a computer to follow the rules and let it run. Like an algo. Why hire people unless you need discretion?

 

Trading is a mix between an art and science , it is not a proper science , therefore it can not be programmed.A programme gives generalisation to every set up , but the markets have a lot of noise and false breakouts of trends.

 

Only people can separate the high probability trades from mediocre technical anylysis set ups , if technical anylysis used on it's own has no edge.Technical anylysis on its own is a junk science , that is nothing more than a road map , but you still need the drivers to drive on the autobahn , roads don't drive cars people do.

[zupcon 10]

Trading is a mix between an art and science , it is not a proper science , therefore it can not be programmed....

 

:rofl:

 

Trading might not be a "science" but you can apply scientific method. Its not rocket science either.

 

I dont really trade automated systems these days due to reliability issues, but if there was a broker out there responsible enough to take this stuff seriously (and there isnt) I could write a profitable automated strategy in about 30 lines of code, and I suspect that a lot of the quant boys could do it in less.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

:rofl:

 

Trading might not be a "science" but you can apply scientific method. Its not rocket science either.

 

I dont really trade automated systems these days due to reliability issues, but if there was a broker out there responsible enough to take this stuff seriously (and there isnt) I could write a profitable automated strategy in about 30 lines of code, and I suspect that a lot of the quant boys could do it in less.

 

The quant boys can code it , but they need manual input for when to use the software.They use it semi automated.

[UrmaBlume 10]

:rofl:

 

Trading might not be a "science" but you can apply scientific method. Its not rocket science either.

 

I dont really trade automated systems these days due to reliability issues, but if there was a broker out there responsible enough to take this stuff seriously (and there isnt) I could write a profitable automated strategy in about 30 lines of code, and I suspect that a lot of the quant boys could do it in less.

 

Most probably the reliability issue is not so much about the broker's platform but rather with your code.

 

If we are talking about a system that trades intra session, trades either US stocks or US futures, can be operated with market orders and produces an ROI > 20% then I doubt and would bet that you can not write such a system in 30 lines of code or less.

 

While I can not speak to all brokers I can say that over the years I have code that executes in TradeStation with 100% reliability. That DOES NOT mean that every execution produces a profitable trade. It DOES say that every entry, exit, stop or take profit order was executed exactly as programmed.

 

As to OilFxAmateur's discussion about systems, while a system can include discretion, that discretion must be clearly defined or it is not a system. Ergo the system can be programmed and tested. The reliability of back testing is as much a function of the developer's understanding as is the development of the system.

 

The systems I run every day in TradeStation consider several different trade types, reversal, continuation and mean reversion and they contain something over 1,000 lines of code. The risk management part of each of these system, the parts that include stops, take profit and sizing, alone take more than 30 lines of code.

 

UrmaBlume

[zupcon 10]

The systems I run every day in TradeStation consider several different trade types, reversal, continuation and mean reversion and they contain something over 1,000 lines of code. The risk management part of each of these system, the parts that include stops, take profit and sizing, alone take more than 30 lines of code.

 

Thats fair comment. Ive built automated systems where individual components of that system can run into thousands of lines of code, and the reason for the additional complexity of course is that its worth putting in the work to get what might be considered to be a very small improvement, but which can have a significant impact on performance.

 

If I look at most of the code Ive written, a significant amount of that code is handling connection state, and handling exceptions when the brokers API fails (which many do with alarming regularity)

 

Oily's a forex guy, using MT4 as his charting platform, so the question really should be could Oily really impliment something in 30 lines of code in a language such as MQL ?

 

To be honest its doubtful, but only becuase a certain amount of defensive programming is required.

 

In MQL I can call a function to open a market order in one line, but realistically, I then need to check the status of that function call, to determine if I was filled, partially filled, determine what was the entry price was etc.

 

If Im going down the market order route, then I need to call a modify function to set stops and targets, and again, I need to check the status that the order was actually modified as intended.

 

If wasnt for this sort of stuff, I have absolutely no doubt that I could impliment in 30 lines, and Im being deadly serious.

 

Im presuming that I'd be allowed to use the platforms inbuilt technical indicators (all of which are probably based on more than 30 lines of code)

 

Id probably need 20 lines to handle the risk management, a couple of lines to get a directional bias, one line for entry trigger, one line to call the open function, one line to add stops and targets, a couple of lines to limit the system to a single trade. 30 lines is a tough call, but just about achievable. The results would be a bit rough, and drawdown larger than Id like, and I'd probably have to diversify and trade several instances of the thing but it would work. Another 30 lines for some basic trade mamanagement and we'd be rocking

 

The moment that you start adding in the defensive code to handle disconnections, and to handle those instances when things dont work out as planned, and a few basic UI elements, your 30 lines of code probably expand to 300 lines.

 

I'll give you a great example of the typical problem you might encounter in MQL. The language allows you iterate through open orders, or through your trade history. You can achieve that easily in a couple of lines of code. The only problem is that the function reads this data from the user interface, so if the user sorts the data displayed in the UI, or worse still filters the data, you'll end up with unexpected results. So consequently, you cant actually rely on the inbuilt functionality. If your strategy relies on an accurate knowledge of historical trades (for example trading a progressive betting strategy) your going to have to impliment your own independant solution because realistically, you cant rely on the technology provided by the broker.

 

I guess this is something of a pointless argument anyway, Ive seen strategies implimented in languages such as R, MATLAB and various AI tecchologies where implimentation detail that would take tens of thousands of lines of C++ are abstracted away into a single function call. In some cases those strategies need execution speed, and they get re written, or they dont.

 

The point is, Im fairly certain Ive seen fairly complex MATLAB strategies for stuff such as dynamic hedging of options that easily fit into my 30 line constraint, but I consider that to be cheating and I suspect that you would too, but where do you draw the line in terms of language abstraction ?

[UrmaBlume 10]

Zup,

 

Your point about the use of either indicators collapsed into functions or objects for order placement is well taken. But I still have my doubts.

 

While I am not familiar with that platform because I have never even considered fx trading, I am deeply familiar with TS and believe my code to be both clean and efficient.

 

Why don't we collaborate on even just one of your 30 line ideas and I will build it, test it and send you both the code and the results.

 

The main point I was raising was about broker reliability which you said doesn't exist and I say I can write code that will execute within TradeStation with 100% reliability with the givens that it trades intra session and trades with market orders. Also it needs to be either US futures, US Stocks or fx via TS.

 

What's to lose? I used to office in Finsbury Circus so we both might enjoy a chat.

 

cheers

 

UrmaBlume