Educational Trading Programs

[kevinfeeder 10]

I'm new to trading the futures market and i've been researching different trading programs, Secrets of Traders, LBR, DTI, etc. does anyone have insight as to which is better for a novice?

Thanks:confused:

[Soultrader 12]

Im doing a series of webinars with Leroy Rushing from TradingEveryday: Webinars

 

What specific information are you looking to learn? Theres also a couple trading rooms that deal specifically with market profile, dow mini's, ES, etc...

[weiwei 10]

Kelvinfeeder, trading, at end is about knowing who you are and what you have.

 

At beginning you will have to decide what kind of style fits you the best. Then pro and con of each style.

 

Basically, this is proportional. Longer the time frame, bigger the capiatal, more tolerance you need for the price swing.

 

no matter which way you chose, be ready to put in a lot of time. Some one once said, a good trader is compareble to a Jet fighter. Same mind set, training, and able to see things from different angles.

 

I do not know how Jet fighter train, but I do know a lot good traders put in that 60-70 hour work week for years.

[weiwei 10]

Kelvinfeeder, a few more things.

 

a lot of good traders are also good poker players. I would suggest that you learn about Poker. Learn how about money mangement, when to go aggressive, when to fold. all that is very similar to future trading. And the best thing about this route is that it is much cheaper and less stressful.

 

You can pick the level that fits you when you play poker, while as in future treding you will be against a lot of smart pros, you will play their game. The chance for a novice is almost zero at beginning.

[Kiwi 16]

Ryan Watts has a sound approach to trading and a reasonably priced "book." Its supported by a chat room (US hours) and yahoo message board. Its a trend supported method with either scalping or longer term exits - the shorter term scalping exits are useful to a new trader IMO because they give a high win rate and enough trades to start to master the psychological issues.

 

I don't use his method but its not dissimilar to what I do and I have recommended it to friends who need help to find something that can work.

 

You should also read Trading in the Zone by Mark Douglas.

 

Wattstrading.com

[Guest cooter]

Some short .pdfs from Ryan Watts website for your reading pleasure:

 

http://www.wattstrading.com/TwoThings.pdf

http://www.wattstrading.com/Justtheotherday.pdf

http://www.wattstrading.com/UsingDivergencestoKeepOutofBadTrades.pdf

 

Enjoy...

[brownsfan019 17]

Here's a 'prototypical' new traders journey:

 

• You start somewhere, such as TL and start looking for the system that will turn you into a multi-millionaire. You might not say it here, but we all are attracted to trading b/c of the $$$$$.
  
• You'll think you found 'it'. And there's a good chance you'll jump in and then be surprised that 'it' was not 'it' after all.
  
• Now that thousands of dollars are gone, you are going to do some hard soul searching.
  
• Most quit here and never look back.
  
• Those that can stick around for years, just might reach the level that we all dreamed about when we first started. Make no mistake, while time in the business is important, you have to work very hard and constantly make progress.
  

What does this have to do with your question? Everything.

 

There's no such thing as a perfect system. Every system has flaws. As was said here, you need to find out what you like. Daytrading is a word that can encompass so much - from hyperscalp trading to a few trades a day. Only you will know what you like.

 

Once you find out what you like, then you can finetune your approach to education.

 

I often get asked on forums and private messages about books that are good for building your library. I haven't finished it all the way just yet, but I attached a PDF to this post that will give you some great books to check out.

 

I would suggest starting with books and videos. Knowing what I know now, I would suggest learning about many different topics and then deciding what topics interest you. It's much less expensive to purchase a book that is $50-$100 vs. one of these courses that cost thousands.

Amazon.com books.pdf

[wrbtrader 10]

I'm new to trading the futures market and i've been researching different trading programs, Secrets of Traders, LBR, DTI, etc. does anyone have insight as to which is better for a novice?

Thanks:confused:

 

Hi Kevinfeeder,

 

The services you mentioned are very different from each other and each offers several products.

 

Thus, its impossible to know exactly which if better for a novice considering you have not been specific to what your needs are nor what type of trading you want to be doing.

 

With that said, all seem to be offering one thing in common...

 

Mentoring Program.

 

If that's what your really interested in...I highly recommend you read and understand the following especially if the fees involves several thousand dollars:

 

1. Mentor shows recent verifiable documentation of their trading.

 

It works both ways...you should also show verification documentation of your own trading.

 

This will show the mentor that you actually need help, properly capitalized and allows the mentor a peek into possible trading problems you may already have transcribed into your methodology.

 

2. You should be allowed to visit the mentor and watch him/her trade even though the mentor is not required to educate you for that particular day(s).

 

This helps avoid the issue of false verifiable documentation because such is easy to make.

 

If your satisfied so far...the mentor should then go visit you in your trading environment to watch you trade.

 

You should compensate the mentor for any traveling expenses because by this time you already know that the mentor is the real deal.

 

Its at this time the mentor can determine if your trading environment has an impact on your trading (don't underestimate this)...

 

It's possible you could be using the wrong trading platform, charting program et cetera...

 

For the style of trading your doing or going to be doing.

 

Heck...your computer workstation may be inadequate.

 

The mentor can make recommendations at this time to get you on the same or similar level he/she is on.

 

Mentoring should not begin until you've fulfilled those recommendations.

 

3. You should be very specific about your goals and the mentor should be very specific about his/her goals with you because they now have valuable information about you...

 

Your trading environment and your trading habits.

 

4. At this time, you can move into the discussion about fees.

 

However, lets pretend a mentor and student agreed upon 2 months of mentoring (in person).

 

Also, until the actual mentoring begins, you should require the mentor to post his/her trades in realtime in a private chat room that you are a member so that you can be ensure his/her edge hasn't been lost nor is in some sort'uv normal drawdown period.

 

If the mentor already has a chat room, join it especially if its free or offers a free trial and this will give you further insights into the mentor's communication skills (very important).

 

Remember, past performance is not an indication of future performance.

 

Therefore, this is the reason why you want to stay in touch sort'uv speak prior to the actual mentoring to ensure the mentor is still profitable and involved in the markets.

 

Mentor should charge you a small fee for such especially if he/she is responding to any of your questions about his trades.

 

After all, he/she does have a verifiable trading record.

 

However, do not mimick the mentor's trades because you cannot possibly get the same fills nor do you understand the mentor's trade methodology at this stage of the mentor/student relationship.

 

5. The fee's the mentor charges you should correlate with how much income from his/her trading the mentor will miss while mentoring you.

 

Remember, by this time you have access to the mentor's verifiable trading record and know exactly how much you should be compensating the trader to mentor you and that compensation should not be less than the income the mentor will miss while mentoring you.

 

Example, if your mentor is making on average about 2K per week and you want to be mentor for 4 weeks...

 

Guess what, be prepared to cough up 8k.

 

Now, that may sound obscene but look at it this way.

 

Why would a trader with a verifiable trading record risk mentoring you for a lessor amount knowing they are losing money (not having the opportunity to fully devote to their own trading).

 

Here's another option for determining the value for the mentoring is while the mentor is trading from his/her account while trying to educate you at the same time.

 

If the mentor makes 1k during the week of mentoring you when there's proof they average about 2k per week...

 

You should at least compensate the mentor for the missing profits.

 

Now...the above is only the minimum.

 

6. Mentoring should last long enough so that the mentor can coach you through your own trades.

 

If you lose money during this period...its either deducted from the cost of the mentoring or a partial refund is entitled to you.

 

Maybe the above is the same.

 

7. There should always be educational material...written in stone...that explains everything or almost everything the mentor has shown to you.

 

8. There should be follow-ups...online or phone conferencing is ok at this point.

 

9. You should agree to make yourself available for reference for the mentor in case future clients ask for such...

 

Along with your trading records of a minimum of 3 months after the mentoring has concluded.

 

This allows the mentor to show future clients if there's real value to his/her service.

 

The point for all the above is just because someone has a verifiable successful trading record...

 

Doesn't imply they are suitable for teaching.

 

Using an academic analogy...I've met brilliant college professors that didn't know how to teach...

 

I guess that's what those teaching assistants were for. :o

 

10. Student and Mentor should be trading the same trading instruments via the same or similar position size.

 

11. Student and Mentor should be using the same trade execution platform (ex. X-Trader, NinjaTrader et cetera) even though they may be using a different broker.

 

The above also (although is a stringent process) helps ensure a fair value has been given for the service.

 

Something else...I've read several posts here all over the internet about finding someone to mentor you for free or to avoid anyone that doesn't mentor for free.

 

Good luck because there's no such thing as a free lunch in this business and those traders that make such suggestions (free mentoring) will never recommend to you a trader that mentor's for free.

 

Anybody that mentors you for free will be coughing up their time and energy...such is valuable to any successful trader.

 

More importantly...it has a value.

 

12. All mentoring should only be done in person. However, follow-up mentoring to the in person mentoring can be done online via realtime communication.

 

Last of all, if you or your mentor ignore any of the above...

 

The odds are very high that either the student will be unsatisfied with the mentor or the mentor will be unsatisfied with the student.

 

Mark

(a.k.a. NihabaAshi) Japanese Candlestick term

 

"Volatility Analysis is a doorway to consistent profits."

[torero 10]

Excellent post, Mark. Didn't read this until today.

[FFTrader 10]

Hi Kevinfeeder,

 

The services you mentioned are very different from each other and each offers several products.

 

Thus, its impossible to know exactly which if better for a novice considering you have not been specific to what your needs are nor what type of trading you want to be doing.

 

With that said, all seem to be offering one thing in common...

 

Mentoring Program.

 

If that's what your really interested in...I highly recommend you read and understand the following especially if the fees involves several thousand dollars:

 

1. Mentor shows recent verifiable documentation of their trading.

 

It works both ways...you should also show verification documentation of your own trading.

 

This will show the mentor that you actually need help, properly capitalized and allows the mentor a peek into possible trading problems you may already have transcribed into your methodology.

 

2. You should be allowed to visit the mentor and watch him/her trade even though the mentor is not required to educate you for that particular day(s).

 

This helps avoid the issue of false verifiable documentation because such is easy to make.

 

If your satisfied so far...the mentor should then go visit you in your trading environment to watch you trade.

 

You should compensate the mentor for any traveling expenses because by this time you already know that the mentor is the real deal.

 

Its at this time the mentor can determine if your trading environment has an impact on your trading (don't underestimate this)...

 

It's possible you could be using the wrong trading platform, charting program et cetera...

 

For the style of trading your doing or going to be doing.

 

Heck...your computer workstation may be inadequate.

 

The mentor can make recommendations at this time to get you on the same or similar level he/she is on.

 

Mentoring should not begin until you've fulfilled those recommendations.

 

3. You should be very specific about your goals and the mentor should be very specific about his/her goals with you because they now have valuable information about you...

 

Your trading environment and your trading habits.

 

4. At this time, you can move into the discussion about fees.

 

However, lets pretend a mentor and student agreed upon 2 months of mentoring (in person).

 

Also, until the actual mentoring begins, you should require the mentor to post his/her trades in realtime in a private chat room that you are a member so that you can be ensure his/her edge hasn't been lost nor is in some sort'uv normal drawdown period.

 

If the mentor already has a chat room, join it especially if its free or offers a free trial and this will give you further insights into the mentor's communication skills (very important).

 

Remember, past performance is not an indication of future performance.

 

Therefore, this is the reason why you want to stay in touch sort'uv speak prior to the actual mentoring to ensure the mentor is still profitable and involved in the markets.

 

Mentor should charge you a small fee for such especially if he/she is responding to any of your questions about his trades.

 

After all, he/she does have a verifiable trading record.

 

However, do not mimick the mentor's trades because you cannot possibly get the same fills nor do you understand the mentor's trade methodology at this stage of the mentor/student relationship.

 

5. The fee's the mentor charges you should correlate with how much income from his/her trading the mentor will miss while mentoring you.

 

Remember, by this time you have access to the mentor's verifiable trading record and know exactly how much you should be compensating the trader to mentor you and that compensation should not be less than the income the mentor will miss while mentoring you.

 

Example, if your mentor is making on average about 2K per week and you want to be mentor for 4 weeks...

 

Guess what, be prepared to cough up 8k.

 

Now, that may sound obscene but look at it this way.

 

Why would a trader with a verifiable trading record risk mentoring you for a lessor amount knowing they are losing money (not having the opportunity to fully devote to their own trading).

 

Here's another option for determining the value for the mentoring is while the mentor is trading from his/her account while trying to educate you at the same time.

 

If the mentor makes 1k during the week of mentoring you when there's proof they average about 2k per week...

 

You should at least compensate the mentor for the missing profits.

 

Now...the above is only the minimum.

 

6. Mentoring should last long enough so that the mentor can coach you through your own trades.

 

If you lose money during this period...its either deducted from the cost of the mentoring or a partial refund is entitled to you.

 

Maybe the above is the same.

 

7. There should always be educational material...written in stone...that explains everything or almost everything the mentor has shown to you.

 

8. There should be follow-ups...online or phone conferencing is ok at this point.

 

9. You should agree to make yourself available for reference for the mentor in case future clients ask for such...

 

Along with your trading records of a minimum of 3 months after the mentoring has concluded.

 

This allows the mentor to show future clients if there's real value to his/her service.

 

The point for all the above is just because someone has a verifiable successful trading record...

 

Doesn't imply they are suitable for teaching.

 

Using an academic analogy...I've met brilliant college professors that didn't know how to teach...

 

I guess that's what those teaching assistants were for. :o

 

10. Student and Mentor should be trading the same trading instruments via the same or similar position size.

 

11. Student and Mentor should be using the same trade execution platform (ex. X-Trader, NinjaTrader et cetera) even though they may be using a different broker.

 

The above also (although is a stringent process) helps ensure a fair value has been given for the service.

 

Something else...I've read several posts here all over the internet about finding someone to mentor you for free or to avoid anyone that doesn't mentor for free.

 

Good luck because there's no such thing as a free lunch in this business and those traders that make such suggestions (free mentoring) will never recommend to you a trader that mentor's for free.

 

Anybody that mentors you for free will be coughing up their time and energy...such is valuable to any successful trader.

 

More importantly...it has a value.

 

12. All mentoring should only be done in person. However, follow-up mentoring to the in person mentoring can be done online via realtime communication.

 

Last of all, if you or your mentor ignore any of the above...

 

The odds are very high that either the student will be unsatisfied with the mentor or the mentor will be unsatisfied with the student.

 

Mark

(a.k.a. NihabaAshi) Japanese Candlestick term

 

"Volatility Analysis is a doorway to consistent profits."

 

Mark/NihabaAshi,

 

I am also very new to trading - just learned what is really a stop order looks like back in November 2006. Currently I am paper trading and I was green for the past week from Wednesday. My real money accounts are just above b/e. I trade mostly S&P e-Mini contracts. I have no problems at all seeing what went wrong with the bad trades and can usually know it before I pull the trigger. I am a very technical person and have found some success in understanding my current mentor who presents a technical system. To give you an example, on Feb 27 and during the crash, I was shorting the market even when it first hit 1412.00 (front month ES). He is about 3 hours by airplane from where I am.

 

I won't comment on how many of the attributes you mentioned above actually fits my mentor but I have to say that it is definitely more than half. Nonetheless, can you recommend one or two names that fit the above (mostly) profile that you described? It would help me further my studies.

 

The other question I have is based on the snap shot above, where do you think I am in terms of maturity?:o

[wrbtrader 10]

Mark/NihabaAshi,

 

I am also very new to trading - just learned what is really a stop order looks like back in November 2006. Currently I am paper trading and I was green for the past week from Wednesday. My real money accounts are just above b/e. I trade mostly S&P e-Mini contracts. I have no problems at all seeing what went wrong with the bad trades and can usually know it before I pull the trigger. I am a very technical person and have found some success in understanding my current mentor who presents a technical system. To give you an example, on Feb 27 and during the crash, I was shorting the market even when it first hit 1412.00 (front month ES). He is about 3 hours by airplane from where I am.

 

I won't comment on how many of the attributes you mentioned above actually fits my mentor but I have to say that it is definitely more than half. Nonetheless, can you recommend one or two names that fit the above (mostly) profile that you described? It would help me further my studies.

 

The other question I have is based on the snap shot above, where do you think I am in terms of maturity?:o

 

Hi FFTrader,

 

I know a few traders that fit the profile I describe (Treasury Futures trader, NYMEX Futures trader and ES/DAX trader).

 

However, for personal reasons, I will not recommend them.

 

As for your maturity as a trader, I can't comment on that because I don't have enough info about you as a trader.

 

I will say this, traders that take a business like approach to their trading tend to have a professional approach to the markets.

 

Also, you mentioned that your mentored has many of the qualities I've described.

 

If you can visit your mentor and allowed to watch him trade from his account during different types of market conditions...

 

It's one of the best ways to further your studies.

 

I myself was mentored (Seattle, WA) in fulltime for several months and a few days per month afterwards for a few years back in the early 90's...all in person.

 

The first thing I notice was the business approach, organization and the balance of science and art involved in trading.

 

Yet, he would remind me that the real learning will occur on my own when I trade with real money during many different types of market conditions (I'm not talking about Bullish & Bearish markets).

 

I think it took me about 5 years to feel like I knew what was going on in the markets.

 

Thus, my market puberty phase was a little slow but I was in no rush (I took my time) mainly because I had a great part-time job that didn't conflict with my trading schedule during those early critical years of trading.

 

Mark

(a.k.a. NihabaAshi) Japanese Candlestick term

 

"Volatility Analysis is a doorway to consistent profits."

[ulad 10]

Hello Soultrader,

 

Please advise trading rooms that focus is on "Market Profile" as a training tool?

 

Best Regards,

ulad

[Soultrader 12]

Hi ulad,

 

Check Alex Benjamin's site out at: The TradingClinic

[Nick1984 10]

I nominate NihabaAshi/Mark for an award for having consistently the most detailed responses ever. I think every single post made has always been very very detailed!

[jim bin 10]

Kelvinfeeder, a few more things.

 

a lot of good traders are also good poker players. I would suggest that you learn about Poker. Learn how about money mangement, when to go aggressive, when to fold. all that is very similar to future trading. And the best thing about this route is that it is much cheaper and less stressful.

 

You can pick the level that fits you when you play poker, while as in future treding you will be against a lot of smart pros, you will play their game. The chance for a novice is almost zero at beginning.

 

 

 

hum i am not good at poker game, maybe trading is not my thing too?

[Reaver 10]

Poker and trading have similar concepts, but are compeltely different than each other.

 

It's like saying you aren't good at basketball, so you would not be good at football by default.

 

While being good at one shows athleticism and an increased proclivity at success in sports in general..they do not necessarily preclude you from being good at one and not the other.

 

Don't count yourself out like that.

[Reaver 10]

My recommendation is to read Trading Day By Day by Chick Goslin. Work outward from there as you see fit.

[Guest Fulcrum]

I myself ended up liking Roger Felton (feltontrading.com) the best for having a very precise method tied with a psychology curriculum that he was willing to start ("Trading With Intent"). The psychological aspects of trading are much too important to overlook and are key to successful trading imo.

[OAC 10]

Geez! Nobody recommends Johnh Carter anymore ?

I thought he is an idol to some of you.

[brownsfan019 17]

I myself ended up liking Roger Felton (feltontrading.com) the best for having a very precise method tied with a psychology curriculum that he was willing to start ("Trading With Intent"). The psychological aspects of trading are much too important to overlook and are key to successful trading imo.

 

Fulcrum - are you going to be the subtle feltontrading spammer here? I can't help but notice the very few posts you have and the times you keep mentioning Roger's version of Traders International.

 

I'll save everyone a few bucks - TI and Felton just use a divergence stochastics and MACD. Now, both will claim that their version is the 'best' and it's not straight divergence b/c they alter the settings just enough to make it their own.

 

DO NOT waste your money at either place. The CME and CBOT websites have MUCH BETTER and FREE programs there.

[Guest Fulcrum]

No...just a happy user of the method. I thought all the VSA stuff everywhere was tradeguider spam??? LOL!

 

When I use or learn something that helps me a lot, I will definitely pass it on to others....btw, I am NOT the author of the book, "Law of Attraction" which I have mentioned in several threads here too....so no spam from me, just passion for trading and what works!:thumbs up:

 

 

...and felton does not do what TI does (plus they are going to have realtime automated indications for all trade signals as a part of the indicators tools...TI does not have this at all).

[brownsfan019 17]

No...just a happy user of the method. I thought all the VSA stuff everywhere was tradeguider spam??? LOL!

 

When I use or learn something that helps me a lot, I will definitely pass it on to others....btw, I am NOT the author of the book, "Law of Attraction" which I have mentioned in several threads here too....so no spam from me, just passion for trading and what works!:thumbs up:

 

 

...and felton does not do what TI does (plus they are going to have realtime automated indications for all trade signals as a part of the indicators tools...TI does not have this at all).

 

Like I said, you can say that Felton, who was a TI employee and teacher there, has different stuff but it's the same junk in a new shiny box.

 

Are you also over at ET trying to help others?

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102485&perpage=6&pagenumber=4

 

I guess Felton has the newbies out there pushing his divergence trading system.

 

Allow me to ask this - does Roger trade with real money or does he still trade just on a simulator?

[Guest Fulcrum]

Yes Roger trades with real money and puts his DOM up at times when I am in the room...I was in the room today for a little while and he did. I have been trading futures for almost 9 years now (full time since 2002) and I do not find anything wrong with what Roger is doing....seems like a very good guy to me.

 

Also, TI sued him after he left and it is my understanding that Roger won the lawsuit (court found Roger was using a different method), so my hat is off to him for beating that outfit.

[trader273 10]

No...just a happy user of the method. I thought all the VSA stuff everywhere was tradeguider spam??? LOL!

 

Difference is that people can learn from what people are talking about without having to purchase with anything. TI, Felton or any other crap like that with "secret" and "proprietary" indicators, people that dont pay for the "ultra-secret--ultra-profitable" settings are left in the dark. So saying "I use felton trading", helps no one. However, when people say i use VSA and here is my chart and here is how you can set it up, helps people.

 

Ask yourself this question- If felton or TI was really that good, why not just trade it for yourself. Set up a CTA, charge 20%-30% performance fee and you can be a millionaire. It makes no sense to set up an "Educational" service and make peanuts of what you can with a profitable CTA. I raise this question with all vendors and never get a straight answer. It is always, "well we just like to help people", which is a bunch of crap. Trading is one of the most cut-throat businesses out there.

 

So unless you post the felton indicators in the coding forum, it helps no one. So either post the indicators or stop talking about felton (unless he wants to become a paid sponsor-- im sure james would be interested then)

[Guest Fulcrum]

I do not assume that everyone is dumb enough to go run out and buy everything they first here about...you know give traders some credit that they do their own due diligence first for whatever method they are looking at (like the VSA tradeguider product). Traders are pretty sharp imo and they should invite a competition of ideas and methods....one dimensional exposure is harmful to trading longevity. Your limiting beliefs and negative assumptions will reduce your potential for success...that is a losing mentality to operate from in trading.