Trading Mindsets is 80 % of Success

[Guest OILFXPRO]

Herebelow are real examples of trading idiots and idiocyand how many screw up in real time execution.There might be something to learn for some reader and maybe quite true for many trading failures.

 

Most trades jobs are 20% mechanics (system) & 80% psychology. Think about it. We can all second guess the process of selling a car, a house, a product , service or placing a trade or trades, so if the processes are so simple then what makes the difference. Knowledge is one, but knowledge is part of any fundamental learning of a new job so what makes the difference after knowledge? It comes down to the psychology of the individual. How they think. Are they an individual that believes in working on their skills, do they work on their states of mind for trading?

 

I have seen many a talented trader waste their talent due to a bad attitude and improper mindset. Due to being in the wrong state of mind more often than not. Individuals who don't look at the bigger picture. Individuals who complain about everything round about them and don't take accountability themselves.

 

When you feel that you are much more than the job your in, that there must be more to life, that your better than this, then look at your state of mind, are you giving it your all and maximising your skills at that point in time? Because if the answer is no then other opportunities will not come your way because you are not attracting them. Opportunities come to those who are giving it everything and making themselves so much better than the rest of the field.

 

So remember this.....each trader in your work knows the mechanics of trading....but how many know and work on their psychology of traders. Their thoughts, their attitude, their motivation and their purpose. Ask yourself out of 7 hours each working day, how many of those are quality hours, with quality thoughts. Are you training your mind for you or against you?

 

Work on your psychology for trading! Begin to think more positive and work on your mental game. If you have the right attitude, and train the right thoughts, your pips will no doubt increase and opportunities will begin to appear. Don't take my word on that.....try it and see what happens!

 

Science facts: Our brains are bombarded by an estimated 2,000,000 bits of information every second. Processing such a huge amount of information would cause the brain to “freeze”. Therefore, we delete, distort and generalise most of it down to around 134 bits of information.

What this means is that we choose only a tiny proportion of the total amount that is available to us, and those 134 bits of information we allow in to our brains are the things that determine what we call reality. Your mindset must be clear of everything , except the system following thoughts ., and get rid of all your other thoughts when placing trades. Your mind must be totally focused on trading , and only on the trades , so no point in having your girlfriend sitting on your lap when trading.

When you are trading , your knowledge and past experiences are conflicting with your trading decisions , on whether to place a new trade or not. Your personality of being successful and good , is fearing failure of a trade and driving reluctance to put on a trade. Your experience of a previous similar set up having failed , is preventing you from placing the trade , although 60 % of these set ups are successful.

 

Your ego that you are a momentum trader is preventing you from placing non momentum swing trades , even though these perfectly fit the system. Your belief and ego , that you are a swing trader , is preventing you from placing momentum trades. Swing trading ego is telling you not to place momentum trade and momentum trading ego is telling you not to place swing –non momentum trades , even though these fit the system perfectly.

 

If you do not placing a system trade , you are second guessing the system .The result of your second guessing is reflected in your pips per trade on your daily log.One trader has 2.5 pips per trade , another has 1 pip and the third one has 0.1 pips per trade.In trading the least intelligent people make the most pips , because their minds are free from their own intelligence ,thoughts and brain power.The least intelligent is the best trader , because he follows systems and places trades without using his own intelligence of second guessing and being cleverer than the system.The poor performers are those trying to get clever with the system and trying to second guess the system.

 

 

The disciplined trader must have track record of success , provide reports of track record . be able to work on own initiative , be able to follow systems , be emotionless during trading and be self motivated.Must be able to execute trades without mistakes , be disciplined and experienced.He must not act like the following

 

MUST NOT ACT LIKE A TRADING IDIOT

 

 

Does not follow systems

 

Claims to see system trades when that do not exist

 

Dwells on past trades and does execute current opportunities

 

Disappears on Skype for 5 minutes to 30 minutes , sometimes hours

 

Misses loads of system trades and creates chaos in trading operation

 

Idiot gives stupid arguments and wastes valuable trading time

 

Is a nuisance during trading hours

 

Puts on revenge trades

 

Puts on non system trades

 

Puts on counter trend trades

 

Does not like working for others

 

Has deep rooted beliefs ,ego and personality that works against employer.

 

Does not provide dedicated time , input and service to employer

 

Thinks he is smarter than the system and employer and wants to change everything and always keeps looking for other better set ups

 

Puts on low probability trades and does not do adequate vetting of trading opportunities

 

The trading idiot believes in a 100% profitable system , with no losses.

 

The idiot has found a no loss profitable system.

 

The idiot has no common decency or etiquette

 

The idiot makes mistakes and disrupts the whole trading operation

 

The idiot repeats the same mistake over and over again

 

The idiot will keep chasing trades , despite being told not to chase.

 

The idiot wasted everybody's time and energies.

 

The idiot promised a lot , but delivered nothing.

 

The idiot talks about profits but delivers losses

 

The idiot does not take the next trade ,because last trade was a losing trade.

 

The idiot solves private issues during trading time

 

The idiot's mind wanders off all day , missing system trades and inputting Non system trades

 

The idiot sees no system trades , but trades actually exist.

 

The. Idiot left us with experiences of a trading idiot

 

Somebody teaches the idiot the right things , but the idiot does not want to listen.

 

The idiot trades on his whims and fancies and hallucinations

 

This idiot now wants to trade on his hallucinations

 

The idiot has no discipline

 

The idiot fears putting on trades , just cause he fears losses

 

The idiot freezes at time of entry and is immobilized by beliefs and emotions

 

The idiot fears momentum trades or swing trades , and sometimes both types of trades and misses trades

 

The trading idiot hesitates to put on trades , due to fears and emotions , and misses trades

 

The trading idiot second guesses the system and misses trades

 

The trading idiot thinks the system is crap

 

The trading idiot has an ego that makes him a failure

 

The trading idiot wants to contradict his system

 

This trading idiot is full of shit , his mind is full of crap.fire him.

 

The idiot of trading will contaminate execution with their own beliefs, egos , judgement ,opinions , comments , views ,fear , greed , hesitation with entries and other psychological issues and personal issues

 

The idiot misses trades

 

The idiot is trying to protect pips and as a result misses trades

 

The idiot is late putting on trades , has late entries.

 

The idiot can predict the market

 

The idiot is in a confused state of mind

 

Contamination of execution of trade entries.

 

The following are the issues created regularly during trading time , with regular disruptions to trading activities , with those wasting valuable trading time and energies of everybody else.So here are the clarifications in advance .The job is to follow the systems and execute trades , in a timely manner in real time.Those who keep creating the following issues on a regular basis will be fired.

 

I am no longer interested in listening to issues from traders , I have no time to waste with idiotic issues I have been getting for last 6 months .Here are many of these idiotic issues raised.

 

When you put on a trade , only technical analysis set up for entry has to be valid , we have no knowledge of the outcome of the particular trade ,therefore we can not pick and choose which set up will fail and which set up will succeed.We Can therefore not choose to second guess the system , and not process the system trade. Anybody second guessing the system will be fired.

 

Our beliefs are our own beliefs , they should not contaminate the entry ,if we believe the trade will not succeed and decide not to execute the trade entry, our belief has no place in the system.We should therefore proceed with entry.The fact that a previous similar set up failed and lost pips , has no relevance to the outcome of the next set up.

 

Our fear of not being right about the trade ,will contaminate our view about the valid system signal. If the technical analysis set shows a valid trade entry, then the trade is a right trade , we should not override a system signal with our opinion or view about the trade due to our fears.

 

We fear losses as it could hurt my reputation for calling high probability trades , if the trade is a failure or a loss , I fear my reputation will be tarnished.Your fears are not included In the system ,your fears or reputation are not part of the system and they should not Contaminate perfect execution of the system entry signals.The system has many losses , almost 25 percent of trades can be losses or failures ,this is acceptable part of trading.

The easy looking trades , we do not fear putting on , are most often the losers.There is no such thing as an easy trade , the difficult trades are the ones that are most likely to profit.

 

I am still dwelling on the last trade which was profitable , the last trade is finished , it is time to move on to the next trade .I want to know why the last trade was profitable and I want to experiment on other similar trades.You are paid to follow systems , process technical analysis signals for entry , and sometimes manage trades.You are not paid to dwell on past trades , whilst missing new entries and wasting paid time.You are not paid to experiment on newer systems and trades , at the expense of our newer entry signals.

 

I like to pick and choose trades , and like to be picky about entries and outcomes.Trading is a probabilities game , one has no knowledge prior to any technical analysis set up ,if it better than a cleaner looking set up or worse than a slightly uglier looking set up , therefore we can not be picky on particular trades that fit the system entry criteria.cognitive biases tests have shown our minds see only what they are looking for , they do not want to see the more difficult trades with the higher success rate.There is random distribution of success rates of ugly ,clean and mediocre set ups , so what gives the power to pick and choose the ones with the most success ratios or override system signals?

 

Many Consecutive Losers and winners are affecting my emotions and psych.There is random distribution of profits and losses , 10 to 15 consecutive winners or losers or 10 to 15 consecutive winners in a drawdown/ losing period is normal.It is part of most trading.

Does a series of of 10 to 15 losses , either in a sequence or in a drawdown / losing period , indicate the system is poor , bad or useless?Does it reflect on the trader?It does not indicate a poor system or system fault , often this is due to market conditions being adverse to the system , a failure of traders to execute the system or a combination of both.If the system is being followed by the trader , it does not at all reflect on on the trader.

 

I miss trades regularly , due to too many trades being triggered at the same session , within minutes of each other.It is normal to take on 2 to 3 trades , within an hourly period , as it is too difficult to process more than than 2 to 3 trades.Out of our weekly 50 signals , we are expected to take 35 signals .

 

I miss trades regularly because I am constantly looking at many finer details (noise) , listening to distracting phone calls from friends , distracting news , handling my personal issues during paid trading time and generally being distracted at home during trading hours.Your job is not to look at finer details , until a set up has materialised on the higher time frames.Constant distractions and undedicated and unfocused attention to trading will lead to missed trades .This is not a fault of the system but your own personality and mindset.

 

I find it difficult to follow systems , like most people .I often put on discretionary non system trades like momentum trades , revenge trades and unfiltered system trades.Not everybody is suited to system following , either become disciplined and use breathing , yoga , exercises and or meditate.

 

I keep dwelling on past set ups and my mind wanders off regularly in search of better systems, set ups and thoughts of contradicting the system , and Technical analysis and the failure of technical analysis set ups .Your mind should be dedicated to looking at charts and looking for system fit set ups.All the work of looking for new systems , thoughts of contradicting the technical analysis and looking for newer set ups and methods has been done , and it is not your job to do this.Your job is to follow systems and stop your mind from wandering away from dedicated focus on looking for new trades.You are not doing the job , you are paid to do , people who do not do their jobs get fired.

 

 

I am not an emotionless robot and can not execute trades like a robot.The job is for people with appropriate psyche and mental skills ,who can execute trades unemotionally with flawless execution of the system. , without regard to outcome of trades or judging set ups for entry.This job does not suit people with emotional deregulation during execution.

 

Do not think before placing a trade , thinking and thoughts have enormous power to become reality in trading execution.Do not think negatively in trading ,it will prevent you from placing trades and make you hesitant in placing a trade , and loads of trades will be missed.

 

Failure of previous set ups or success of previous set ups have no relevance to the outcome of next set up.

 

If I miss trades , and somebody else puts on trades or three people put on the same trade , then we can have 3 losing trades from three people at the same time .Two out of three people are wasting valuable energies on same task , instead of expending it on other set ups and instruments, due to incompetence of the prime trader who missed the trade in the first place.The first trader should be fired due to incompetence.

 

If I achieve my weekly target of 40 pips , can I try to protect my pips and not take on further trades or hesitate to take on further trades and miss them?No!Some weeks will show. 40 to 100 pips , other weeks will show -30 to 40 pips profit , so we can not stop taking trades to protect pips ,that is not your job ,your job is to call out trade entries.Some weeks are bad and others are great , but they average out at 35 pips per session .Some months can be bad , others can be great , so we can not cap our profits on good days ,weeks and months.

 

Traders have a lot of personal beliefs , for example one believes they are a swing trader , so they will no place trades on momentum trades.There are many other personal beliefs which prevent traders from executing trades , delaying/hesitant execution and missing trades.

 

I look for trades which show me certainly , as to where prices are going and will reach there.i like to be sure about my trades , hence fewer trades and more missed trades.I like to put on trades , where I know the outcome of trades.I like to put on trades and use set ups and systems without losses.There are no such set ups without losses, this is what trading idiots believe and look for in trading ......surety , the length of the move of the next trade, holy grail set ups without losses and a free lunch in the market , and lastly no one knows the outcomes of trades.

 

If traders contaminate execution with their own beliefs, egos , judgement ,opinions , comments , views ,fear , greed , hesitation with entries and other psychological issues and personal issues, there is no way the systems can be operated successfully as the traders are preventing successful implementation of system. Trading is 80 percent psychology

And mindset of trader which prevents traders from executing trades correctly , and messing up .

 

I like to second guess system and not put on system trades , because I think the system has flaws and is crap.I am smarter than the system and I am not comfortable with the system and it's flaws.The system is to be followed , not second guessed by a clueless idiot of trading.The job here is for following the system , not paid to argue about second guessing the system.

 

I have not made any pips this week or the last few weeks , and I feel bad about the results.The daily trading log is for keeping a record of performance of trader.The purpose behind the log is to asses the number of trades and the type of trades put on by trader.The pips performance is not important ,because it is the system which makes pips , the trader does not make any pips.

Pips performance is irrelevant for those following only the system , to the best of their abilities , it is relevant for those who are incompetent at this job and regularly miss trades due to their mindset. The trader just follows the system , the pips is the performance of the system not the trader , so just follow the system.

 

I prepare the entry signals , but somebody else manages the trade and exits.Do the results reflect on me?No!You are just following the system ,the system earns or loses pips , not you because you do not earn the pips.The pips results reflect on the system .

 

The pips are the market pips ,they do not belong to anybody.Either we are a bunch of clueless traders who always give pips to the market , or the smarter traders who take pips from the market.We have a system which takes pips from the market , if we can not take pips fom the market ,we have problems in the mind which prevent us from taking the system pips.

 

 

The system is 16 / 18 systems packed into one , it is many systems put together.No!it is a flexible system with multiple entry and exit options , whichever option materialises first can be taken.

 

 

The system and it's rules are in my opinion crap and I like to change them and bend them regularly.I am too intelligent to work like a moron who follows profitable systems , I can do better than than that and use my intelligence to improve , devise and change systems .My track record shows my poor performance , because the human brain is not wired to trade , and my inability to follow systems like an obedient assistant. Successful trading does not require intelligence , it requires moronic assistants who can follow systems without using their poor trading wired mind.

 

Trading and successful trading is a simple process , it is the mindset of the trader which prevents them from being successful, they complicate it as listed above with all the issues and problems they create.

 

I like to argue my view points ,opinions , thoughts , beliefs and agendas during trading time .I like to show my intelligence and show how clever I am by wasting everybody's trading time and energies , with stupid arguments .Only idiots waste other people's time , the policy is to fire idiots who create disruptions.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

The solution is to work in a team of 3 people who are totally detached from trading biases and emotions , none of them is responsible for the outcome of the trade or responsible for the losses.This in my opinion would eliminate the mindset problems , since none of them are responsible or attached to the outcome , because they are following a rigid system.

 

One person does the technical analysis , the second person checks the validity of the trade and is system fit , the third person simply inputs the trades and manages the trade as per system.

 

None of them are given the results of the trades and work for somebody.

[zupcon 10]

The solution is to work in a team of 3 people who are totally detached from trading biases and emotions , none of them is responsible for the outcome of the trade or responsible for the losses.This in my opinion would eliminate the mindset problems , since none of them are responsible or attached to the outcome , because they are following a rigid system.

 

One person does the technical analysis , the second person checks the validity of the trade and is system fit , the third person simply inputs the trades and manages the trade as per system.

 

None of them are given the results of the trades and work for somebody.

 

If mindset is the issue, how do you account for the complete absence of profitable automated systems in the public domain ?

 

There's no shortage of moronic ideas written in MQL4, and discussed at various forums, tens of thousands of the things, all following mechanical rules, no psychology getting in the way, and yet, unable to overcome a couple of pips of spread each time they trade :haha:

 

By the time anyone's done what needs to be done to get profitable, mindset really isn't an issue.

 

You should post this stuff at the zoo, they'd welcome you back with open arms the way things are going over there :rofl:

[Guest OILFXPRO]

If mindset is the issue, how do you account for the complete absence of profitable automated systems in the public domain ?

 

There's no shortage of moronic ideas written in MQL4, and discussed at various forums, tens of thousands of the things, all following mechanical rules, no psychology getting in the way, and yet, unable to overcome a couple of pips of spread each time they trade :haha:

 

By the time anyone's done what needs to be done to get profitable, mindset really isn't an issue.

 

You should post this stuff at the zoo, they'd welcome you back with open arms the way things are going over there :rofl:

 

There are no profitable automated system , because trading is an art and it requires multiple systems with complex filters (these are easier to see than code )for each set up It is a visual art and can not be coded in millions of lines of codes..If you were to code these complex filters , for specific set ups , these rules would conflict with most of the other profitable systems .I wasted 4 years of my life on these forum geniuses of eas .. indicators and software .If it was possible to code a profitable automated system , we would have seen another Bill Gates , there is not one in mql4 or automated trading.

 

In real time execution is where most traders fail . that is why the trading gold rush has more vendors than successful traders , they are all trying to pimp and peddle stuff ......after failing horribly at trading due to mindsets.

 

After I gave away the best trend trading courses for free and multiple free profitable systems , the 14 monkeys posting under multiple aliases to generate trading education business , they like the back of me.:haha::haha:

[SIUYA 11]

The solution is to work in a team of 3 people who are totally detached from trading biases and emotions , none of them is responsible for the outcome of the trade or responsible for the losses.This in my opinion would eliminate the mindset problems , since none of them are responsible or attached to the outcome , because they are following a rigid system.

 

One person does the technical analysis , the second person checks the validity of the trade and is system fit , the third person simply inputs the trades and manages the trade as per system.

 

None of them are given the results of the trades and work for somebody.

 

......if trading mindsets is 80% of success then this solution you propose means that the 3rd person is probably the one responsible for the success or failure then as managing the trade is what takes most the mental effort if assuming you have a rather systematic and previously tested way of entering trades.

Plus....this also assumes that the person managing the trade is in complete agreement with the first two peoples opinions?

 

I get the idea - I always thought of an experiment whereby one person puts on trades, the other person takes them off - and neither knows what the other were thinking might be interesting. Imagine the thought process -

Person A- That entry looks good and fits a criteria I have been given, I will buy that, ....move on

Person B - I have a position but I dont know where its enetered or how much PL there is in it, all i need to think about is where is a good place to exit the position.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

......if trading mindsets is 80% of success then this solution you propose means that the 3rd person is probably the one responsible for the success or failure then as managing the trade is what takes most the mental effort if assuming you have a rather systematic and previously tested way of entering trades.

Plus....this also assumes that the person managing the trade is in complete agreement with the first two peoples opinions?

 

I get the idea - I always thought of an experiment whereby one person puts on trades, the other person takes them off - and neither knows what the other were thinking might be interesting. Imagine the thought process -

Person A- That entry looks good and fits a criteria I have been given, I will buy that, ....move on

Person B - I have a position but I dont know where its enetered or how much PL there is in it, all i need to think about is where is a good place to exit the position.

 

The third person is merely executing a rule base exit criteria , based on trailing stop loss ,fixed target and a simple moving average exit.The third person does not have any clue about the trade , but is just like a data entry clerk , one who has no knowledge about the context of data he inputting.

 

The second person checks the rule based system fit criteria , and maybe also monitors the exit rules are followed.The first person gave the order to the second person to check the entry .If it fits the system rules , it is approved and passed on .The second person is merely following rules.

 

None of them have any attachment to the trade ,it's entry or outcome All three are doing simple clerical jobs , without any attachment.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

There are hundreds of free systems out there on the internet , and there are thousands of videos for learning systematic stuff , and plenty of free literature on technical analysis..We still have more losers , about 99 % of them .

 

Loads of good articles and videos pointing out why .....mindset is 80 % , despite the presence of all these great systems for free.Our brains are not wired to trade.

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/#sthash.nA0BQjlL.dpbs

 

Psychology

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/#sthash.q4XIhjAk.dpbs

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/#sthash.ZqIR0NRg.dpbs

[zupcon 10]

 

None of them have any attachment to the trade ,it's entry or outcome All three are doing simple clerical jobs , without any attachment.

 

There are profitable automated systems, some are even written in MQL 4 !

 

But leaving that aside, you now seam to be describing a mechanical system operated by 3 independent people. How does that differ from any other automated system ? And how does 3 people following simple mechanical rules suddenly become an art ? Where's the art in performing a simple clerical job ?

 

Who exactly is calling the trade entry ? Is this some 4th person ? And how can they ever enter a trade if person 2 has to confirm risk reward etc.

 

I don't want to discourage posts in this forum, but they lap up this sort of mumbo jumbo over at the zoo, I'm sure they'd love it.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

There are profitable automated systems, some are even written in MQL 4 !

 

But leaving that aside, you now seam to be describing a mechanical system operated by 3 independent people. How does that differ from any other automated system ? And how does 3 people following simple mechanical rules suddenly become an art ? Where's the art in performing a simple clerical job ?

 

Who exactly is calling the trade entry ? Is this some 4th person ? And how can they ever enter a trade if person 2 has to confirm risk reward etc.

 

I don't want to discourage posts in this forum, but they lap up this sort of mumbo jumbo over at the zoo, I'm sure they'd love it.

 

I have seen marginally profitable automated systems making 10 % a year , but add slippage and bucket shops in mql4 , and you have zulch.

 

The mechanical system described above can not be coded , it is too complex to be put in lines of codes , simply because trend lines ,context , indicator variability ,channels , tick chart precision entry filters and other system rules make it too complex to code .By the time everything is in place , it is too late to be executed by a computer.

 

The trade entry is called by the system rules , the first person keeps looking for the entries all day long.The second person does not have to confirm risk /reward , just check the system rules.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

Think why people are peddling eas and looking at eas , because they can not trade themselves due to their mindset .They invent thousands of indicators , when a 40 year old indicator call stochastic will do the same job , they forget their mindset fails at using indicators or anything.

 

Why are they inventing new trading software ? cause they can't trade due to their mindset ,personality and traits.

 

Whey can they not make a living from trading ,just like in the first post of idiocy in this thread , due to their mindset! They need to sell education and training.

 

Proof is around all the Zoos of failed traders due to their mindsets.

[wmck6167 10]

“By the time anyone's done what needs to be done to get profitable, mindset really isn't an issue.”

There may have an assumption: you can predict the future since you project that you can take the profit… Is this the truth always? What if current set up is a set up and you maybe be hooked to the future….what if It’s like a bridge game and if it’s an interacted.., It’s just my personal opinion.

 

"Trading Mindsets is 80 % of Success"

It’s a great topic and thanks for bring up this great question. I like to think of why? I remember when I started to think this question, why “a lot”, then I started to trade profit thankfully. I tried to overcome the barrier of setting the strategy and conducting the trading by myself, it takes a long mental thinking process….It seems that I need to deal with invisible enemy and set up a team to fight for it. The battle field is in the future… It’s so great to hear your opinions. Cheers.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

“

"Trading Mindsets is 80 % of Success"

It’s a great topic and thanks for bring up this great question. I like to think of why? I remember when I started to think this question, why “a lot”, then I started to trade profit thankfully. I tried to overcome the barrier of setting the strategy and conducting the trading by myself, it takes a long mental thinking process….It seems that I need to deal with invisible enemy and set up a team to fight for it. The battle field is in the future… It’s so great to hear your opinions. Cheers.

 

Why the Human Brain Is a Poor Judge of Risk

 

There are plenty of great articles and explanations on why the human brain is not wired to trade , and it fails horribly 99 % of traders fail , this explains why it is difficult or impossible for human's to trade profitably.Most traders do O K on demo , to blow up on live accounts.Most traders screw up in the live accounts or real time execution.

 

I can feel my adrenaline levels rise.... Part of my brain -- the part that feels most me-like, the part that has opinions about the world and decides how to act on those opinions in a rational way -- knows that the trade is o k.... But another part of my brain wants to barricade myself from losses and screws up in real time with loss of discipline , and does some of the most stupid things.

 

There's a good reason evolution has wired our brains this way. If you're losing on trading and losing everything , it makes sense that you develop a lifelong fear of losses, or at least fear losing on this trades/s . From a risk/reward perspective, it's a good trade-off for the brain to make, and barricade to the extent of screwing up.In both cases, your body is saying: "This happened once, and therefore it's likely to happen again. And when it does, I'll be ready.

 

Unfortunately, the brain's fear system doesn't scale the same way the body's immune system does. it's harder for the brain to deal with a multitude of trading fears.Manual trading can be very impossible

[wmck6167 10]

“The human brain is not wired to trade…”

 

You are absolutely right, but you may be able to find a system to change the focus of your system. I like Dr. W. Edwards Deming’s comment regarding to the system.

 

"The prevailing style of management must undergo transformation. A system cannot understand itself. The transformation requires a view from outside. The aim of this chapter is to provide an outside view—a lens—that I call a system of profound knowledge. It provides a map of theory by which to understand the organizations that we work in.

 

"The first step is transformation of the individual. This transformation is discontinuous. It comes from understanding of the system of profound knowledge. The individual, transformed, will perceive new meaning to his life, to events, to numbers, to interactions between people.

 

"Once the individual understands the system of profound knowledge, he will apply its principles in every kind of relationship with other people. He will have a basis for judgment of his own decisions and for transformation of the organizations that he belongs to. The individual, once transformed, will:

 

I believe that a person can become better on his trades steps by steps if the person devoted himself by his whole heart to think about the “market”.

[Day trader 10]

I do agree with the statements, but one needs to have an edge in the market. And that edge would definitely be a system. The problem is: will a trader be able to stick to the system and its' rules or give in to his ever changing feelings.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

I do agree with the statements, but one needs to have an edge in the market. And that edge would definitely be a system. The problem is: will a trader be able to stick to the system and its' rules or give in to his ever changing feelings.

 

There is no edge , except in trend based trading and the skill and knowledge of the trader.Despite having the knowledge , skill and an edge , most traders screw up in real time due to their phsyche.

 

In the heat of the moment is where most screw up.Hear of the demo monkeys losing on live accounts , when emotions take over live execution.

[wmck6167 10]

The problem is: will a trader be able to stick to the system and its' rules or give in to his ever changing feelings.

 

Hi, there is no such problem: a trader needs to stick to the system and can not give in to his ever changing feelings. The reality is why we can not do that.... It's a complicated question from my opinions, it may relate to the personality, the belief on the truths of market, the operation mode on trading, the experiences, the power of repents and obedience to the rules.... It's just my personal opinions although I do not know the reason behind you to become a day trader.

There is a boundary condition just came to my mind. If you lost a big money in the market, will you be thankful or hateful(or feel both angry and very sad...) to the market? Cheers, and nice to hear from you.

[zupcon 10]

There is no edge , except in trend based trading and the skill and knowledge of the trader.Despite having the knowledge , skill and an edge , most traders screw up in real time due to their phsyche.

 

In the heat of the moment is where most screw up.Hear of the demo monkeys losing on live accounts , when emotions take over live execution.

 

From the data I've seen, demo traders fail just as frequently. Statistically there's no significant differences between the success rates of either demo or live accounts.

 

Personally I could never make money on a demo account until I'd developed an edge

 

You can't really say there is no edge, and then say, oh except for trends !

 

10 years ago a bunch of us where killing it with hedged carry trades, there was a edge, it was spotted, and it was milked dry. there's still a massive edge available from carry trades but most don't get it because their expectations are completely unrealistic, and their assumption of what they'd need to do to make those kind of returns are just so diverged from reality they haven't a cat in hells chance of ever joining the dots. They could probably find that edge with half a day on google, but they won't do it.

 

Are highs and lows of the day randomly scattered through the day ? Or do they tend to cluster around market opening times ?

 

I can probably think of 20 things off the top of my head that are a suitable basis for an edge, but really, in over a decade of participating in forums, I met maybe 2 people who had the tenacity to actually put in some work, everyone else wants it handed to them on a plate

 

You know that's true, you've been involved in this nonsense for years

 

All the issues you raise about the brain not being wired to manage risk is perfectly correct, but I'd suggest the fastest way of getting over that stuff is through the adoption of a more mechanical approach, at least until you get to the point where you start to get a feel for how an edge actually manifests itself.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

From the data I've seen, demo traders fail just as frequently. Statistically there's no significant differences between the success rates of either demo or live accounts.

 

Personally I could never make money on a demo account until I'd developed an edge

 

You can't really say there is no edge, and then say, oh except for trends !

 

10 years ago a bunch of us where killing it with hedged carry trades, there was a edge, it was spotted, and it was milked dry. there's still a massive edge available from carry trades but most don't get it because their expectations are completely unrealistic, and their assumption of what they'd need to do to make those kind of returns are just so diverged from reality they haven't a cat in hells chance of ever joining the dots. They could probably find that edge with half a day on google, but they won't do it.

 

Are highs and lows of the day randomly scattered through the day ? Or do they tend to cluster around market opening times ?

 

I can probably think of 20 things off the top of my head that are a suitable basis for an edge, but really, in over a decade of participating in forums, I met maybe 2 people who had the tenacity to actually put in some work, everyone else wants it handed to them on a plate

 

You know that's true, you've been involved in this nonsense for years

 

All the issues you raise about the brain not being wired to manage risk is perfectly correct, but I'd suggest the fastest way of getting over that stuff is through the adoption of a more mechanical approach, at least until you get to the point where you start to get a feel for how an edge actually manifests itself.

 

Statistically you will never find any difference between the demo and live accounts , as 99 % end up as losers.They eventually all end up losing.You get some profitable ones on demo , but far greater number of newcomers to demo There are a few short term gainers on live , but the failure rate on live is equally as bad as demo.That proves the point , that mindset/phsyche is 80 % .

 

Most people using the word edge have no clue what they are talking about , that is for discussion in another topic.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

Here is the thread to discuss EDGE

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/traders-log/16432-edge.html

[SIUYA 11]

Statistically you will never find any difference between the demo and live accounts , as 99 % end up as losers.They eventually all end up losing.You get some profitable ones on demo , but far greater number of newcomers to demo There are a few short term gainers on live , but the failure rate on live is equally as bad as demo.That proves the point , that mindset/phsyche is 80 % .

 

I'm confused with what you are saying here........

Doesn't the idea that most traders who dont make it on demo OR live trading prove that they have not developed an 'edge' (or lets call it simply a 'profitable repeatable strategy')

and hence its probably not 80% mindset.

 

If it is 80% mindset after having developed the profitable strategy then demo traders would be more profitable than live traders and they simply go to water when dealing with real money.

 

Or maybe 80% of the mindset should be as Zupcon suggests is done prior to trading ???

[Guest OILFXPRO]

I'm confused with what you are saying here........

Doesn't the idea that most traders who dont make it on demo OR live trading prove that they have not developed an 'edge' (or lets call it simply a 'profitable repeatable strategy')

and hence its probably not 80% mindset.

 

If it is 80% mindset after having developed the profitable strategy then demo traders would be more profitable than live traders and they simply go to water when dealing with real money.

 

Or maybe 80% of the mindset should be as Zupcon suggests is done prior to trading ???

 

An edge is only there , if it exists before the dice is rolled .Most traders who do not make it on demo are unskilled , those who make it are unskilled luck systems guys , but still no mental skills there to succeed in live , so still unskilled.

 

There are many more learners , amateurs and all clueless demo monkeys.

 

 

Most of the mindset should be done prior , but only in theory .Chicken and egg situation , without testing waters and mindset , one can not know how to apply trading mindsets .The mind you bring to trading is not the right mind.

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/psychology/13770-developing-your-mind-trading-building-inner.html

[SIUYA 11]

Gotcha - I was extrapolating what you normally see, whereby people often think they have something in DEMO and testing but then meddle with it when it comes to live trading...hence most folk mentally cant handle the actual trading of live money.

 

I have always thought there are two distinct mental capabilities required.....(and maybe that is just one aspect where trading is difficult)

 

1...you need to have the mental ability to approach trading and investing in the right manner (determination, persistence, ability to think rationally, to test, to understand sometimes complex relationships...etc;) This is the planning mindset, required to develop an edge....

 

2....you then need the right mental aptitude to be able to then apply a system or strategy that has been shown to work throughout point 1 without mentally disabling yourself (the self sabotage, hyperventilation thoughts people get) once real money gets involved. This to me is the trading mindset the one able to implement it.....

 

Anyone think that these are not requiring different mental capacities?

[Guest OILFXPRO]

Gotcha - I was extrapolating what you normally see, whereby people often think they have something in DEMO and testing but then meddle with it when it comes to live trading...hence most folk mentally cant handle the actual trading of live money.

 

I have always thought there are two distinct mental capabilities required.....(and maybe that is just one aspect where trading is difficult)

 

1...you need to have the mental ability to approach trading and investing in the right manner (determination, persistence, ability to think rationally, to test, to understand sometimes complex relationships...etc;) This is the planning mindset, required to develop an edge....

 

2....you then need the right mental aptitude to be able to then apply a system or strategy that has been shown to work throughout point 1 without mentally disabling yourself (the self sabotage, hyperventilation thoughts people get) once real money gets involved. This to me is the trading mindset the one able to implement it.....

 

Anyone think that these are not requiring different mental capacities?

 

Most folks struggle in live real time information processing , timing the market , using judgement in the heat of the moment under stress and duress , and speed of information processing. This type of money only belief is passed around , and readers will believe this type of misinformation or lack of adequate information.

 

1.You need the mental ability and test your mental ability useful enough to hold a dead snake around your neck..

 

2.You need the right mental aptitude to hold an angry live venomous snake around your neck , using the mental ability tested in 1.

 

 

It is as easy as that !Will it really work?

[SIUYA 11]

Most folks struggle in live real time information processing , timing the market , using judgement in the heat of the moment under stress and duress , and speed of information processing.

 

usually because they dont do their homework or develop an edge, dont know what to expect,

or

are simply not built for fast processing in which case that should have been thought out before hand

or

is it that they suddenly choke when real money is on the line.....

any of them or all of them could occur.

 

 

This type of money only belief is passed around , and readers will believe this type of misinformation or lack of adequate information.

 

what do you mean by this?

thanks.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

usually because they dont do their homework or develop an edge, dont know what to expect,

or

are simply not built for fast processing in which case that should have been thought out before hand

or

is it that they suddenly choke when real money is on the line.....

any of them or all of them could occur.

 

 

 

 

what do you mean by this?

thanks.

 

At the most basic level, people must trade by processing information. Unfortunately, we're not very efficient information processors. We have a lot of biases which enter into trading decisions.Humans to back test strategies without processing information as would be required in live trading , is not a adequate test or preparation .In the live account they will have to process real time information with unknown outcome and money on the line on uncertainty .The only real preparation is live account forward testing with real money , with information processing real time .............as opposed to dead sleeping information on historical data that requires very little , if any processing.

 

 

It means half the information you provide is often as good as misinformation , I was referring to your money as being the only criteria for failure on live accounts.

 

On a demo account or back test you lose money , it has no effect.On a live account somebody steals from your pocket , you will want revenge trades or have stress responses

which can be way out of whack , or you feel like putting one over the market by adding to a losing position or averaging down .These fight or flight responses are wired into our brains.

 

Trader's minds get screwed up after a bit of real time trading , when losses incur and trades are missed just like all the idiocy of the first post , most of which is real time live trading examples of screwed up trading minds.