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This is an official compilation thread that will contain selected posts from the highly popular [VSA] Volume Spread Analysis thread located here. Many thanks to Tingull for creating this thread and PivotProfiler for all his valuable inputs and making this thread possible. The summary format will contain a table of content and a reference of the original post and poster. This thread will show various chart samples, commentary, questions, as well as useful posts that will provide a comprehensive summary to the original VSA thread. The purpose of this thread is to provide an easier way to study the valuable VSA material. Many thanks to all those who have contributed to the 130+ pages of VSA material possibly making it one of the most comprehensive VSA thread on the net. Please do not use this thread to post any comments. Please post all suggestions, questions, and feedbacks in this thread located here. If you find I have missed a post that should be included in this summary, please do not hesistate to leave your comments. There are over 130 pages on the VSA thread so any help pinpointing relevant posts are appreciated. Please note that this summary will be developed further as the VSA thread expands. If any edits should be made, please post your request in here as well. I have compiled this summary by briefly reviewing the VSA thread again and may have missed out a few posts and charts. VSA Official Summary Part 1 will contain up to page 35 on the original thread. Enjoy! [multipage=VSA Intro]Posted by PivotProfiler in this thread. 1. Volume is activity. Hence tick volume can be used where actual contract volume is not available. 2. Two ways of looking at volume: * relative volume: volume in relation to the previous bar or bars. * actual volume: the amount (size) of volume an individual bar represents. 3. Strength comes in on down-bars and weakness comes in on up-bars. 4. Markets do not like high volume up bars with wide spreads? Why because there is a possibility of Professional Selling into such a bar. 5. Professional Money deals in large amounts and thus sells into up bars so as not to be hurt by their own selling. The converse would also be true. 6. 85% of a volume histogram represents Smart Money activity. 7. Smart Money is active on all time frames. Various time frames are used to hide their actions from those that can read a chart and each other. Futher comments by PivotProfiler located here. "In any business where there is money involved and profits to make, there are professionals. We see professional diamond merchants, professional antique and fine are dealers, professional car dealers and professional wine merchants, among many others. All these professionals have one thing in mind; they need to make a profit from a price difference to stay in business. The financial markets are no different and professional traders are also very active in the stock and commodity markets-these professionals are no less professional than their counterparts in other areas..... It is important to realize at this stage, that when we refer to the definition of professional, we are NOT talking about the 'professionals' who run investment funds or pensions........... So what do I mean by a professional trader? Well, one example is the private SYNDICATE trader that work in co-ordinated groups to accumulate (buy), or distribute (sell), huge blocks of stock to make similarly huge profits." Tom Williams, Master the Markets, p.14 Syndicate traders are secret, well-heeled, highly skilled, and happy that you believe (wrongly) what you believe. Posted by Blowfish here. Just a quick point. 'Pure' VSA as described by Williams does not pay any attention to the open. Williams does look at the previous close in comparison to the current close. In fact this is the basis used to determine an up bar / down bar. He also looks at net change (last close -> current close) but thats a fairly secondary thing and not written about anywhere. Most of the information is there with HLC bars though perhaps not in as visually accesible form as a candle. Of course the only time that it is not is when there is a gap i.e. last bar close <> this bar open. Intraday not likely to be much of a problem. When there are gaps VSA may concider a bar an upbar where a traditional candle may concider it a downbar. The thinking is that the close is the most imortant price point as it represents the result of the struggle between the bulls and the bears for the particular interval you are looking at. [multipage=VSA & Candlesticks]Regarding VSA and candles: Posted by PivotProfiler in this thread here. It should be said that candle can be used. TG offers them because many traders like them. I used to like them myself. But bars are easier to see especially at first. Tom Williams (father of VSA) uses bars Todd Krueger (TG and leading VSA expert) uses bars Gavin Holmes (TG) uses bars Sabastin Manby (Tom's friend and VSA expert) uses bars. Read his article on the T2W forum. Joel Pozen (Formerly of TG, Student of Richard Ney, and one of the best chart readers, second only to Tom Williams) uses bars. Check out his site at Tradingmentor.com If one uses candles, one need to remember that the close is more important than the open. Hence while a candle may close in the middle and have an equal open, what matters first is the middle close. The fact that the bar is a Doji is secondary. As far as mutliple time frames. The best approach may be to find certain support/resistance levels on various higher time frames, but trade off of just one lower time frame chart. [multipage=VSA Scenarios]Listed created by Tasuki here. Interesting discussion, folks. What I'd like to see is a compendium of VSA setups, with a dozen or so examples of each, to show how the same setup might look with different scenarios. I've only been studying VSA for a little while, and Tradeguider says it has over 400 signals, but they seem to come down to a common few, really: tests (successful and unsuccessful) shakeouts no demand stopping volume pushing through supply upthrust selling/buying climax climactic action support/weakness coming in trap up/down move no result after strong effort selling/buying pressure bottom reversal end of a rising market [multipage=Chart Examples Part 1]A series of charts posted by various members. Chart by PivotProfiler in this thread. I place a small dot on all bars that have volume less than the previous two bars. I also place an diamond on bars with narrow ranges and increased volume. Chart posted by Tingull in this thread. Trade I took today using VSA techniques. Notice when price reached the weekly pivot that we had a wider than average spread and a LOT of volume and then price closed right near the highs of that bar. About 10 seconds before that 5min bar closed I went long at 148 and was out for a 10 point gain (my personal strategy right now...it ended up going for much more I know. Chart posted by Wookey in this thread. The first green rectangle is "Strength coming in" signal. The bar has very wide spread, ultra high volume, it closed in the middle part of the bar and made new low. Basicaly, I think, the most nervious sellers started fixing their profits. The next red triangle was identified as "No Demand" signal. The bar has narrow spread and low volume. It signals the end of retracement. You may disregard that signal in ranging market as not really important. The next green rectangle is called "Climactic action". You see it has ultra wide spread and ultra high volime. In fact it's the widest and highest by volume bar of the day. When you see a bar like this you should think if it's a selling or stoping volume. You may anticipate it knowing about strong support at 12190, or wating for the confirmation which happened on the next bar. In Drummond Geometry a bar like that is called an exhaust. The second red triangle is a "No Demand" bar again. Next signal is missed here but you already should see that if you combine two bars in 10 min bar it will be the same signal as the first one. And the last red rectangle is Upthrust. The volume is not so high, spread is wide, high is hihger than previous several bars and the close is in low part of the bar. They describe it as stop hunting desined by market makers to mislead traders. Chart posted by Tingull and commentary by PivotProfiler from this thread. One note on stopping volume. Tom Williams, the father of VSA, would enter on the close of that bar. TG, however would not place a sign of strength until the next bar closes and is an up close. (2 bar pattern). Getting in at the very bottom or top is not the most important thing. Here the best entry is after the test. Why? Because we have seen the strength come in on the stopping volume. Then we see a No Supply indication followed by a test for supply. The Smart Money wants to make sure that there are no sellers out there to impede the mark up phase. That is why they test the market. Of course, the mark aggressive you are as a trader the earlier you would enter. But you should be looking for the bar after the volume spike (stopping volume) to confirm before entry. Commentary by PivotProfiler located here. The No Buying pressure is a bar that closes up from the previous bar and closes on its high but has volume less than the previous two bars (and ideally volume less than average). Although price is moving up, the Smart Money is not involved in the push. Remember, 85% of the volume histogram represents Professional Money. So no buying pressure is coming form the pros. The next bar is down. But here too we see a lack of Smart Money activity. Thus when we say, No Supply, we mean no supply (selling) from the Professional Money. What is happening is this: the market is moving up, but the Pros are not yet fully interested. Why? After such a move down they want to make sure there are no more sellers left in the way of an up move. As they wait to see what happens the market moves up but then stops. The next bar is down on even less volume. The Pros did not step in and start selling (no supply). Just to be sure there are no sellers, the Smart Money now Tests the market on the next bar. They take it even lower and find no sellers (volume is low) and thus take price back up to close on or near the high. Once we see the Stopping Volume we should begin to look for a No Supply or Test bar. When we see the No Demand, we do not automatically look to go short. So our bias isn't changed. We see strength in the form of the Stopping volume and are looking to go long. The No Demand helps set up the subsequent No Supply and test formation. Charts and commentary posted by Tingull from this thread here and commentary provided by PivotProfiler from this thread here. Tingull: Perfect today. Note the HUGE action happening here in the circled bar right at VAH...you can also see a diverging delta, showing selling waning, and then BAM!!! You could also notice the increasing volume coming into that VAH. While this may lead some to think that we will go lower...VSA makes you wait for confirmation Good thing...that abnormally large volume spike with closing price in the middle of the bar is showing you right there that professional activity has come into the market. PivotProfiler: Nice observations. A wide spread down bar (close lower then previous bar) that has ultra high volume and closes in the middle of its range is a telltale sign of a transfer of ownership. The fact that this is happening at the VAH is of no real surprise either. These areas tend to be where Professional Money will show itself. That is why Gavin talked about the importance of (1) volume (2) support/resistance. For me, what is more important than how one arrives at the support/resistance area, is that one PAYS ATTENTION TO PRICE at these areas. That is, going long as price trades down to these levels makes little sense no matter how "proven" the support area may be. Paying closer attention to what price is doing at this time, however, does make sense. Support/Resistance areas can not always hold. Otherwise there would be no such thing as a trend. Hence what we really want is to force the Professional Money to show itself in these "expected" areas. Their intentions-to go thru or to respect the area(s) can be seen on the chart. Charts and commentary by Vercingetorix in this thread here. I was wondering what you thought about the stock indexes. Looking at the dow I would think that there is background strength, but still a lot of supply. Now bear with me, the concepts of VSA are new to me so this might be totally off, but here is what I see: 1st arrow) We had that down day on a wide spread and high volume the day before. This bar is an up bar on even higher volume. Does this indicate 'hidden' buying on the wide spread down day? 2nd arrow) We make new lows but close near the highs. Is this a stop bar or a test bar? The volume is still high so if it is a test bar does this indicate there is still supply? 3rd arrow and 4rth arrows) These bars look like no demand which would make sense if professionals want more stock at lower prices. 5th arrow) Is this a stop bar, test bar, or down thrust bar? either way I take it to be bullish since we closed on the highs (and found support @ 200 ema). Since we took out the lows from the previous move down it looks like a giant stop run on the daily time frame. I'm probably off on my analysis, but it looks like all the market needs is a shakeout move and then it should rally. I would be very interested in your guys comments. PivotProfilers reply located here. I wanted to redress this nice post. I have taken another screen shot that is more up to date. Admittedly, this is after the fact as well as hard right edge analysis. First, Todd Kreuger still sees weakness in the market and is calling for prices to fall this week. Note that the last black double arrow points to Fridays action. This bar is a NO DEMAND bar: it closes up from previous bar, closes in its middle and has volume less than the previous two bars. I will begin at the beginning. The first thing we see is a wide spread down bar on ultra high volume. This bar is also a WRB. WRB analysis tells us that changes/shifts in supply/demand occur in bars such as these. From a VSA perspective, we have a large range bar that closes down from the previous bar, but closes off its low with ultra high volume. THERE MUST BE DEMAND (BUYING) IN THIS BAR. If this bar was weak, then the close should be on the low. The next bar is key. This bar closes up. Truly if the previous bar was selling, then this bar should NOT be up. However, we need to take a look at this up bar. Note that the volume is even higher than the previous bar, but the range is narrow. Something is keeping the range down: Supply (Selling Pressure). The next bar is a High Volume Test. It closes on or near its high, makes a lower low and closes below the previous bar. Again the volume here is high for a test. Which is why the next bar is down and what we actually have is a FAILED TEST. Now jump to the next bar with the double arrow. This bar closes lower than the previous bar, closes on or near its lows and has volume less than the previous two bars. THIS IS NO SUPPLY. We do indeed move up a bit from this point. Price moves up and then comes back down. At this point, our secondary method (Japanese Candlestick patterns) is traversing into a valid bullish white hammer pattern. Note the Hammer. THIS IS ANOTHER TEST. The bar makes a lower low, closes on or near its high and closes up with high volume. If the volume was ultra high, we might call this a SHAKE OUT and see strength, but as a high volume test we see weakness. The Professional Money is testing for sellers and they are finding some. In other words, there is supply underneath this market. Still, price moves up. We do expect a move back into the WRB support/resistance zone. The reason is beyond the scope of this thread. Which brings up back to the NO DEMAND sign on Friday. If you use the WRB's as profit target signals there was two so far. It may be time to move the stop just below the last WRB. Chart posted by Soultrader from this thread. Here is an interesting chart from todays session. Notice new lows with lower volume. Hopefully some of you YM traders were able to capture the reversal movement. Chart analysis provided by PivotProfiler in this thread here. First we see a dark WRB followed by a GAP in price. Note the first candle with a double arrow. Notice that the volume is ultra high and the bar closes lower than the previous bar and off of its low. VSA teaches that this is a bar that may have buying within it. Now the next bar is key. It turns out to be a WRB, but the fact that the bar is up means the prior bar MUST of had some buying contained within it. Now we move to the white WRB itself. Note that this bar creates a zone or range where we get a change in the supply/demand dynamic. We also know that the market does not like wide spread up bars on ultra high volume because of the possibility of hidden selling. In this case, however, the volume actually fell from the previous bar and is not ultra high. We move to the next candle with a double arrow below. This is a doji that closes equal to the previous bar and in the upper portion of its range. Volume on this bar is Ultra high. There is SUPPLY in the market at this stage. Price moves down from here. Next candle, closes in the upper portion of its range and higher than its open. Volume again is extreme. Here we have Demand showing itself. In other words, Demand is swamping Supply on this bar. SOMETHING HAS CHANGED. Notice that the next bar closes in its middle, has an equal close and volume drops off. The Last bar closes on its high on volume that is less than the previous two bars. Although it does not make a lower low, this is a 'test' bar. The Smart Money is testing for supply and finds none. Now price is poised to go up and fill that gap. Chart analysis by PivotProfiler located here. Nice Bullish White Hammer pattern. Note that the white hammer line is inside the range of the Ultra Wide Spread Ultra High Volume candle. When we take a look at the WRB, we see a down candle that has an ultra wide spread and closes on its low. There would appear to be heavy selling pressure in this bar. BUT THE NEXT BAR IS UP. If that bar was true selling, then the next bar would not be up. In fact, if one looks at what price did after that bar it moved up. Clearly, the Professional demand created an upward drift in price. Simply, that WRB must of been a shift/change in the Supply/Demand dynamics of the market. Now note the large dark Candle just prior to the shaded area. This candle closes on its low , closes lower than the previous bar and has volume less than the previous two bars. This is No Selling pressure. The close on the low fools the retail trader into seeing weakness. The lack of volume, however, is the real clue. Price does move down a bit and create the bullish hammer pattern. Note that the hammer line itself is a VSA shakeout/test bar. This is the "ideal" set-up. We see strength come in using our primary methods (VSA and WRB) and then we get a buy signal via our secondary method (Japanese candlestick patterns). Chart analysis posted by PivotProfiler here. First, let's start at the left side. The first bar with the double arrow points to a bar where SUPPLY entered the market. The bar is wide, closes up from the previous bar, closes near the low of its range, and has ultra high volume. If this bar was buying, then why did it close near its low? Many people will see up volume and up close and think demand. VSA, however, tells us that Weakness comes in on strength and strength comes in on weakness. Next skip to the next double arrow. Here we have an UP THRUST. This bar makes a higher high, closes higher than the previous bar, closes in the middle of its range and has high volume. The Professional Money is trying to get traders to go Long, when the next likely direction is down. They are trying to trick the retail trader into a bad position. So an UP THRUST is a sign of weakness. Now we come to the bar in question. We have a narrow range bar that closes up from the previous bar, closes in the middle of its range and has volume less than the previous two bars. YES, THIS IS NO DEMAND. If the Smart Money was interested in higher prices, then the volume should not be so small. The narrow range also tells us that the Smart Money is not interested in higher prices. They keep the range narrow because they know the market is weak. The retail trader thinks he is getting a good fill, and then the floor drops out.......... The last two arrows point to Stopping Volume/climatic action. Wide spread bar with Ultra High volume that closes in the upper portion of it range and lower than the previous day. BUT THE NEXT BAR IS UP. If all that volume represented selling, then the next bar could not be down. Moreover, if all that volume was selling, then the close should be on the low of the bar, not in the upper portion. On an aside, without seeing the open of the bars, It looks like we have a valid white hammer pattern setting up there. Or at least a Long Shadow that we need to take a closer look at. WRB analysis also tells us about the change/shift in supply that is happening at this key bar. [multipage=Smart Money] Pivotprofiler on professional money located here. Here is a chart of some of today's price action in the Euro. What is telling here is the actions of Professional Money PRIOR to the news release. We can see when they begin to position themselves and on what side through the use of VSA. Almost an hour beforehand, we see an Ultra Wide Spread Bar with Ultra High Volume, that closes down from the previous bar and closes in the middle of its range. This bar represents a transfer of ownership. That is, the Professionals are buying from the retail traders. Why would they be buying prior to a usually volatile news release ? Seems like a risky thing to do. Could they already have an idea of what it will say? Now VSA tells us that if this is the case, we would expect that if they are BUYING now, they will be SELLING into the release itself for profit taking. Especially If the news spurs the retail traders into entering the market on the long side. However, if the retail trader is believes the news to be bearish, they (Smart Money) would be BUYING more. That is, if the retail traders are getting short, who are they selling to? So we should see both Professional selling and buying. We don't expect then to get net short in other words. Check out the large dark hammer as the news is released. There was some profit taking on that bar. But the bar has ultra High volume, closes on its low with the next bar up. Some buying must of taken place as well. More exactly, they took profits and then began buying as the retail traders (weak hands) rushed in on the short side. We always want to consider "who is on the other side" with VSA. Usually, its the Smart Money and that is not good. I should say, without VSA it's usually the Smart Money and that is not good. Note that price did begin to fall for a few bars. But then we get a dark hammer line. The Long Shadow of the hammer line happens, not so coincidently, to trade into the region of the First candle mentioned where the transfer of ownership begun. The Smart Money is becoming aggressive on the demand side. They are locking in the weak holders (retail shorts) as they know price is going HIGER NOT LOWER. The down move and the dark hammer itself may have even pushed some weak longs out. If you look at a chart beyond the time shown here, you will see the strong up move that ensues. 1. The Smart Money began getting long (long) prior to the News. 2. Some used the event to take a bit of profit. 3. Most got even more long (demand). 4. Once the weak holders where short, price found support in a such a way as to knock out weak longs and lock in weak shorts. 5. what can not be seen in this picture, is a large inverted white hammer that represents the last effort for the weak shorts to get out at break even if the bought on the news release itself. When we use VSA we get a 3 dimensional picture: volume, range and price. Ignoring one of them (like volume or keeping volume constant) is like cutting off one leg of a tripod............... [multipage=Squat Bars and Volume Spikes] Posted by PivotProfiler from this thread. Another example would be what Bill Williams calls a squat. Basically a squat is a bar with a narrow range and higher volume. VSA teaches us to pay attention to a narrow range bar that has higher volume (especially) if it is ultra high and closes in the middle. Essentially, this is just a more specifically defined squat bar. Chart posted by Soultrader here and comments made by PivotProfiler here. Soultrader: "I have a litte trouble understanding volume demand bars after a selloff. I have attached a chart from yesterdays action. The rectangle box shows couple sell volume spikes. My questions is this: How do you watch for demand bars after that spike? In the first rectangle the volume spike is created by a doji. The next price bar closes above the high of the doji... this occurs on lower volume. How do you intrepret this? To me it seems like supply is cut off but price continues to drop. The same thing occurs in the second rectangle box. Volume spike is created on a down bar but the next bar closes above the low of the previous bar. Any advice would be appreciated." PivotProfiler: "A couple things to think about. First at the time of the volume spike what was the trend? This is very important. If the trend was up then what we would be looking for is different than if the trend was down. Next, are we around a known support/resistance area. These areas are usually respected by Smart Money. If we are and the trend is down, then we would expect to see demand enter the market, but not necessarily a change in trend. After the large volume spike that closes on or near its high, we know that there must of been some Professional buying going on. Price does indeed move up. But as the trend is down we might expect to see a narrow range bar with volume less than the previous two that closes up from the previous bar, with the next bar down-No Demand. Once you see the spike bar, You begin to look for either No Demand , No Supply, Tests , or Up Thrusts." More on Squats by PivotProfile posted here. "A squat is the strongest potential money maker of the four Profitunity windows. Virtually all moves end with a squat as the high/low bar plus or minus one bar of the same time period........ The squat is the last battle of the bears and the bulls, with lots of buying and selling but little price movement (NARROW RANGE). There is almost an equal division between the number and enthusiasm of both bear and bulls. A real war is taking place and the equivalent of hand to hand combat is going on in the pits..............", Bill Williams, TRADING CHAOS, p.93. Bill Williams' technical definition of a squat bar is a bar with greater volume than the previous bar and decreasing MFI (Market Facilitation Index). The short hand definition is, volume greater than the previous bar and a SMALL range than previous bar. As I do not use mathematical formulas, it is the short-hand definition that I look at. Tom Williams says that the range of a bar tells us the sentiment of the market makers, the ones who can see both sides of the market. For Volume Spread Analysis the story above is off while the bar itself is of note. VSA would say that the volume is the retail trader rushing into the market. The spread is narrow because as the retail rushes in to buy, for example, there is a substantial amount of Supply from the professional to a meet that demand. Because the market makers see resting orders to sell from the smart money, they have a different perceived value of the stock/index/currency. This perception of value is such that they are willing to keep the spread narrow as they see expect prices to fall. If they, the market makers, were in fact bullish, they would increase the spread, not let retail traders come in and get "good fills". Simply put, as volume increases the range of the bar should increase as well. If the range is decreasing, something most be going on underneath. What is going on underneath is either Supply swamping Demand or Demand swamping Supply. This often happens at Market tops or bottoms (like Bill said). We are yet again at situation where we see two different methods coming to the same conclusion. Tom never mentions squat bars, but he talks about narrow spread bars on high volume (p.77 for one-when discussing market tops.) A squat and a test are not related, but could be the same bar. A test that has a narrower range than the previous bar and has higher volume is by the short hand definition a squat. An UpThrust might also be a squat. Note that at potential turning points as defined by VSA: Tests, UpThrusts, we have the potential for a squat. Which as stated above often come at plus or minus one bar from said turn. To be sure, not all squats are turning points and not all turning points have a squat. Generally speaking, the higher the volume the more likely the squat will be a market turning point. PivotProfiler on Narrow Spreads & High Volume (Squat) located here. " This is very simple to see. The public and others have rushed into the market, buying before they miss further price rises. The Professional Money has taken the opportunity to sell to them. This action will be reflected on your chart as a narrow spread with high volume on an up-day. If the bar closes on the high, this is an even weaker signal.........." Tom Williams, Master the Markets, P. 77. Just wanted to show something a bit different. A few caveats: * As previously mentioned, Not a good idea to enter trades after 1300 and certainly not after 1400. * The above is even more so the case on a Friday. What I wanted to show here was the narrow range bar on high to Ultra high volume. Of course, this is the type of bar where WRB & Long Shadow Analysis skips over. VSA, however, does not. Again, the over-arching concept remains the same. We would be looking to see some type of entry signal within the body of a significant WRB or Long Shadow. What happens here is after an effort to rise we see a No Demand bar. This bar closes on its high and has volume less than the previous two bars. The very next bar has a narrow range, closes on its high and has greater volume than the previous bar. THIS IS A SQUAT. The above quote tells us the importance of the close on the high with this type of narrow range high volume bar: Weakness. So if we step back, we have just seen a No Demand bar. Which tells us the Smart Money is not yet interested in higher prices. The next bar we see has a compressed range on higher volume that closes on its high and closes equal to the previous bar. "..So by simple observation of the spread of the bar, we can read the sentiment of the market-makers, the opinion of those who can see both sides of the market.", Master the Markets, P.28. Some may note the No Demand signal a few bars earlier. This would be a good place to short if we were not in a naturally low volume period. More over, the reason this short could be considered is because of the Ultra High Volume seen as an effort to rise. Then the following No Demand/Squat sequence. Simply, volume as a whole increased during this time so while the time of day remains a reason not to enter, the lack of volume doesn't. What is important here though is the idea of the narrow range bar (narrower than the previous bar) on high volume, which is higher than the previous bar. In other words, the squat; Bill Williams' term, not VSA's term. [multipage=VSA and WRB's] Commentary posted by PivotProfiler located here. VSA and WRB & Long Shadow analysis are the primary methods and are used to understand the contextual backdrop thru which a candlestick pattern trade can be taken. Take a look at the chart below. We see a WRB on Ultra High Volume. VSA tells us that markets do not like Wide Spread up bars on Ultra High Volume. Because there could be hidden selling in the bar. Now check out the very next bar. This bar has almost as much volume as the WRB, in fact it has 3 ticks less. BUT the range is much more narrow and the bar closes in the middle of its range. This is a transfer of ownership bar. The Smart Money is dumping supply into the market. As retail traders rush in to get long, the Smart Money is all too happy to sell to them. Like I said, we need to always be aware of who is on the other side of the trade. While this bar is up, on high volume it is not "up volume". Most volume indicators and volume analysis would assume it is positive. But we know better than that. A few bars later, we see a narrow bar that close up from the previous bar and closes in the upper portion of its range, but on volume less than the previous two bars. This is No Demand. Professionals are not interested in higher prices at this time. At this point we have context. Supply has entered the market. Note that price overall begins to move sideways. There are some who would go short after the No Demand with the background selling that can be seen. This is a personal choice. For me, all that the context says is, "now is not the time to be going long". I need to see some candle pattern, preferably within the range of the WRB, to get me short. (if you look at a chart from today, you will see that price plummeted after the jobs report). But my point is this, the context, or story, at this time says more about NOT going long than simply get short. More chart examples provided by PivotProfiler here. BEFORE & AFTER: I have attached two charts. The first is the before and the second is the after. Let's look at the before. For me the key concept comes thru at least a basic understanding of WRBs. Of course, VSA doesn't look at the open, but I think much is missed if you don't. More over, I think that if VSA did, they would come to the same conclusion. And in fact, they DO come to the same conclusion partially when dealing with wide spread bars (more on this later). The first bar with the double arrow is a wide spread bar that closes in the middle on ultra high volume. Supply enters the market on this bar. Not a place to go short. The reason: the reason is explained in the next highlighted bars. The next bar we have is a Long Shadow and in VSA terms, it is Ultra Wide Spread bar on high volume, that closes lower than the previous bar, and closes in the upper portion of the range. DEMAND entered the market on this bar. Now, here is where I depart from VSA. We now have a Long Shadow that creates a support/resistance zone. We also see that this Long Shadow tells us that demand overcame supply on the lower portion of the bar. Not to mention, this bar is a Doji (close=open). VSA does not care that it is a doji, yet the conclusion that something is changing in the supply/demand dynamic is the same-Buyers came in on this bar. Still not the bar to get into the market on. The next key bar is a WRB. WRBs also tell us of shifts or changes in supply and demand. Then we get a No Demand bar. Again not a bar to enter on. What we need to see is something happen within the RANGE of the WRB AND OR THE RANGE OF THE SHADOW OF THE LONG SHADOW BAR. Ideally, the market will move back down and give us a No Supply or Test within these ranges. Then we should be looking to go long. And that concept is what Todd does not say much about. Clearly, he would not talk about within the context of the WRB because he does not look at the open, but he can talk about the overall range of the Ultra Wide Spread bar. In other words, even though he would not know it is a Long Shadow, he would recognize the bar as Ultra Wide Spread and thus should be used as a matrix to measure what comes. The next chart is the AFTER. We do indeed get the No Supply sign in the range of the WRB and the Long Shadow candle. Once we have the confirmation bar up, the next bar, we get long at the close of that bar/open of the next bar. Note that there are two gaps and gaps are usually filled so we need to keep that in mind. Further continuation on the previous commentary provided by PivotProfiler here. After the up move in price what happens next? There is on thing we want to keep in mind; we had a couple of Gaps on the way up. Gaps are usually filled. They can at times, however, act as support and resistance areas...... Let's look at the what happens when a test fails. The first thing you will notice is a WRB. Not important to VSA but oh so telling to the rest of us. The best places to see tests, upthrusts, and no supply/no demand bars are within the body of a WRB or shadow of a Long Shadow candle. We have our WRB in place. This creates a natural support/resistance zone. Next we see a narrow bar that closes near its high, closes equal to the previous bar, and has Ultra High volume. THIS IS A HIGH VOLUME TEST. Smart money is looking for sellers and is finding some. While it is true that sometimes the market goes up on high test, it usually does not go up far and then comes back down to re-test the area. As always the next 1 or 2 bars need to be considered. To actually confirm the test we need to see one of the next 2 bars close Higher than the close of the test. Otherwise, we have a failed test. Notice what happens here. The next bar is down and then the bar after that is an up bar but closes equal to the close of the test bar. Now, look at the next bar. We have an up bar that closes in the middle to slightly up on relatively high volume. It is not as high as the test, but it is still high. Up close (from previous bar), on high volume closing near the middle: This is supply entering the market. At this point, we have a FAILED test on high volume and more supply showing up. The very next bar closes on the high with volume less than the previous two bars and closes higher than the previous bar. This is no buying pressure. As it would happen, the high of this bar is equal to the close of the WRB. TG WONT TELL YOU THIS. Then we get the next bar down. From a VSA point of view, now is the time to go short. * the test of supply has failed. * New supply entered. * No buying pressure. couple that with the fact that there are gaps below and all this is happening at the low of the S/R zone of a WRB. Now let's take a look at a test that does not fail. I would first point out that from a time of day perspective, this is not an ideal time to be entering a trade. It all starts with a WRB. We have an Ultra Wide Spread bar on Ultra High Volume that closes on the low. But the next bar is up. If this bar is up then there must of been some buying in the previous Ultra Wide Spread bar. WRB analysis tells us that changes and shifts in supply/demand occur in WRBs. More reasons to think something is indeed going on. 3 candles later, we see a narrow range candle that closes on its high, makes a lower low and has volume less than the previous two bars. THIS IS A TEST. Technically a possible test, as we do not have a confirmation bar yet. Confirmation comes 2 bars later when we see an up bar that closes higher than the close of the test bar. First possible entry point, with no regard to time of day. If you missed that point there is another. We get a bar that closes on its low, has a narrow range, has volume less than the previous two bars, with the next bar up. THIS IS NO SELLING PRESSURE/NO SUPPLY. What is nice about this bar is the volume. While the test volume was lower than the previous two bars, it was not as low as the volume on this bar. More evidence of the lack of sellers underneath. Also note that we are within the range of the WRB as on this bar. So we have a second chance entry which may in fact be the most ideal entry of all for some (leaving time of day out of the equation). Back to the test candle. Some may note a hammer line that appears to traverse into a bullish white hammer pattern. It does not. But if you had mistaken it as such, here too, time of day should have kept you out. WRB analysis provided by PivotProfile here. Not all WRBs are created equal. While there may be many factors in what constitutes a significant WRB, the three main are: * Size in relation to other WRBs * Amount of volume * If the WRB is the result of some news related event NihabaAshi is the true WRB expert and may be able to enlighten us as to some of the more reasons that determine a WRB's significant. As I know you are looking at VSA, don't let what I just said about WRBs confuse you. There are three factors that constitute significant bars in VSA as well: * Size in relation to other wide spread bars * Amount of volume * If the wide spread bar is the result of some news related event Now in the chart below we see numerous WRBs or wide to Ultra wide spread bars. However, they are all not equal. Let's just focus on the very first one on the left hand side of the chart. We see an Ultra Wide Spread bar with Ultra High Volume that closes up from the previous bar. VSA teaches us that markets do not like Ultra Wide Spread or Wide Spread bars on high or Ultra high volume. Because they could hide selling (supply) within them. Although some times they are indeed strength. Which by the way, much time is spent on in the bootcamp. Because many people after hearing weakness (supply) comes in on up bars automatically assume all up bars are weak. We know this bar had some selling (supply) once we see that the next bar is down. If all that volume was buying (demand) then the next bar could not be down. What we often see next, if the market is strong, is either a No Supply or Test for supply bar. Here we see a test. This is a low volume test. Note that volume is less than the previous two bars. Note that the test makes a lower low than the previous bar and closes on its high. It hard for me to separate some things, so I must point out that this test bar is in body of the WRB. But from a pure VSA point, note that the test is within the range of the Ultra Wide Spread bar. SIMPLY, A LOW VOLUME SIGNAL WITHIN THE RANGE OF A PRVIOUSLY HIGH VOLUME BAR. Many concepts in VSA are logical. Here we see some supply enter the market. The next thing we see is a test of supply. The Professional want to take prices up, but are making sure that the supply is out of the market. If there were sellers underneath, then there would be more volume. And if a large amount of supply had entered (more than the demand present) then price would go down on more volume. The key(s) here are that the 'test' comes immediately after we see supply enter the market showing us market strength. Or, simply put, location and background information. An aggressive trader might enter once the test is "proven" on the next bar that closes higher than the close of the test. Shown here. The reason for the question mark is that not everyone would enter at this point. Some use multiple timeframes, some use price action patterns, and some even use indicators ( ). To be sure, the market did indeed move up and a quick profit could have been made. In fact, one could still be long as of this pic and in profit using only one timeframe and that repeatable and reliable pattern. Once you witness Ultra Wide or Wide Spread bars on High or Ultra High Volume, you want to then start looking for bars with low volume. This is where you find no supply, no demand, and some test bars. Sometimes there will be high volume tests or Upthrusts on high volume. An Upthrust is kind of like a high volume test but showing weakness rather than strength. That is, a high volume test will close on or near its high and an Upthrust closes on or near its low. Ideally a high volume test will make a lower low while the Upthrust will make a higher high. There is a lot more here, but it is enough to say that every No Supply or No Selling Pressure sign in this pic is within the range of a significant Wide or Ultra Wide Spread bar. More precisely, within the body of a significant WRB. Chart explanation by PivotProfiler located here. Primary methods: 1. Volume Spread Analysis 2. WRB & Long Shadow Analysis We trade right by first looking left. First we look at the higher time frame. Markets are fractal and the higher frame dominates the lower one. The 15 min chart . As previously stated, the start of the day should be at 0200 New York time according to Mark Fisher. This is when London trading begins. Notice that we see a squat. A narrow range candle (narrower than previous candle) with volume greater than the previous bar. Supply is entering on this candle. At 0400 hrs we get a No Demand sign. At this point we have seen a squat and a dark inverted hammer with a Long Shadow. Supply is entering and volume is less on up candles. At 0430 we see another No Demand sign. It is a good guess that there are no buyers in the market. If Professional money is not buying (supporting) then the path of least resistance is down. Jump over to the 5 min. The fist significant candle is the Effort to Fall candle just after the No Demand candle. Note that we see a test candle after this WRB, which is also an effort to fall candle. While the volume on the test is low, we have not seen strength on the 15. No reason to be looking to go long. The next candle is up on Ultra High Volume. Markets do not like up bars on high to ultra high volume. Indeed, supply entered the market on this bar. But we now have our WRB that creates a Support/Resistance zone. This is where we would like to see an entry signal. Preferably a low volume signal where there was once high volume. Or a high volume (squat) or UpThrust. AT 0435 we see a narrow range bar that closes up on volume less than the previous two bars. This is No Demand. We have seen Weakness on the 15 min chart and now we are getting No Demand on the 5 min. Even though there is no "vsa indicator" we are reading the candles and see our entry. We note that this No Demand is both within the body of the large white WRB and within the body of the Effort to Fall candle. If the Smart money was trying to push prices down around this area (range), then it is a good sign (of weakness) to see little volume on a candle in the opposite direction within that range. Posted by PivotProfiler here. My definition of a WRB is a candle (or bar) with a body (Open -Close) larger than the previous 3 candles. Hence there are 4 candles(bars) in the definition, not 3. While the amount of candles used in the definition can be changed to 4 or 5, 3 should be the minimum amount. This is the definition used by the man who pioneered this concept, NihabaAshi. The only thing I see as a potential problem with your definition is that it is hard to SEE that a candle(bar) is a certain standard deviation wider than other candles. That is to say, the traditional way is more Visual and thus more adaptable when one is watching multiple markets/charts. I also think you can miss a great deal of what is going on as the WRB does not have to be a set amount larger than the previous 3 candles, only on handle(pip/tick) larger. While the more significant WRBs tend to be large, they do not need to be. Mark would tell you that WRBs represent, among other things, volatility changes in the market. Sometimes that change or shift is subtle (think of three dojis followed by a candle with the open 1 pip below the close-a dark WRB by definition). In this case the WRB is not large and not all that important, but it is expected. As we would expect to see increased volatility after a period of little or no volatility. Volatility here of defined by the size of the body. [multipage=Chart Examples Part 2] Chart analysis provided by PivotProfiler here. The first thing to note is the wide spread ultra high volume bar. You labeled it stopping volume. I think it is either stopping volume or a volume climax. More important than the name, however, is the fact that a change in the supply/demand dynamic happened on that bar. The bar is wide with ultra high volume, closed lower than the previous bar, and closed near the high of its range. CLEARLY THERE WAS BUYING (DEMAND) ON THIS BAR. This created a gap which was filled. I veer off the VSA path a bit to mention that this is a Wide Range Body. Note where the open is (not looked at in VSA, but so telling). Ironically, I think this is an advanced VSA concept despite that they do not look at the open. In other words, if they did look at it, they would logically come to the conclusion WRB analysis comes to. Not to get too far into this, but what I like to see is a set-up (entry signal) happen within the range of the body or the total range of the bar of this ultra wide spread bar. I believe Todd, and Tom would agree with the total range aspect and thus it is more advanced VSA, and not talked about in public forums(webinars) by Todd. At any rate, we then get a No Supply bar. The bar closes near its low, has a narrow range as compared to the previous bar, closes lower than the previous bar and has volume less than the previous two bars. You are correct about the test. That is indeed a test of supply that closes in the middle of its range, makes a lower low than previous bar, closes lower than the previous bar. Volume is higher than the previous bar but relatively low. The bar you labeled as No Supply is incorrect. The volume is not less than the previous two bars. However, the next bar is No Demand. Note that we are at the bottom of the support/resistance zone via the body of that large candle. With a No Demand indication, the Professional Money has to re-test for supply underneath. We thus get another test bar. Here what is of note is the fact that volume here is less than the volume on the first test. This is a sign of market strength. Note the shaded area. There is something going on here that is beyond the scope of this thread. Suffice to say, there is reason to expect price to move back into this area. But even without that concept, one would be looking for a move back to "test" the close of that large Ultra Wide Spread bar. How and where you actually enter the market is another question altogether............... That is, it is a personal decision. But the pattern of a No Supply followed by a test, followed by a No Demand, followed by another test on less volume than the first test and with a low less than the first test, is a repeatable pattern. Chart analysis provided by PivotProfiler located here. Notice that we have a valid High Close Doji pattern. This pattern appears within the body of the WRB and the following Ultra Wide Spread bar with Ultra High volume. Take a look at the test bar. VSA tells us that a test bar is when Professional Money "mark" prices down to see if there are is any supply (sellers). VSA, however, does not look at the open of the bar. But look at what we see if we do. First, we see that this bar is a doji. In candlestick terms this bar represents indecision. More over, the close on the top means price was rejected as it moved down. This is not unlike what VSA tells us. When we look at the entire bar, what must be the way the bar played out? The bar opened up, went down and the price came up to close right where it opened. Clearly, we can see that Professional Money "marked-down" the price only to take it back up again. In this case, we have a "perfect" example of the true intentions of the Smart Money. If the open had been lower on the bar, we would of course still have a test, but the picture would be different. For example, if the open was at the low of the bar, we would still have a test, but we would not get a sense of the "mark-down". Note that the other labeled test candle opens in the middle and closes on its high. We do see the action (mark down-price rejection) here as well. To be clear, tests come in various forms and the key is the volume and the close. But some tests are more reliable than others. Volume plays a role here but so does the open. Tests that are also dojis tend to be the optimal type of tests. To those that use candles, this makes sense. Hammers with long shadows also make ideal test bars. Two methods reaching like conclusions. It should be pointed out that a test bar needs confirmation. Ideally that confirmation comes on the next bar with a close higher than the close of the close of the test bar. If that confirmation bar closes higher than the high of the test bar and it (the test bar) is a doji, well, now we have something.............. Chart analysis provided by PivotProfiler here. Very interesting chart here. I makes these posts to help me learn as much as anybody else. I am really starting to see the relationship between High/Ultra High Volume areas and subsequent Low Volume signs within that area. If I had any doubt about the importance of volume, I certainly don't now. Many of the charts are repetitive but there are two main reasons for that: 1. Theses things repeat day after day and on all timeframes. 2. Pattern recognition. At any rate, here is a really cool chart with much of the same AND a new twist. First, we see a down dark candle line on Ultra High Volume. But the next bar is up. Therefore there must of been some demand (buying) on that dark candle line. That next up bar, in fact, has even more volume and closes off its highs. We know that the market does not like wide spread candles on High or Ultra High Volume. At this point, we also have a white (close>open) WRB. Thus by extension, we have a Support/Resistance zone. Remember, WRBs represent changes or shifts in the supply/demand dynamics in the market. The bar following this WRB is up, but the volume is less than the previous two candles and the range has narrowed. The candle following the No Demand is down. Now we can see that the WRB did indeed have some supply in it. (while this is after the fact, if we step back and look at what price did following the WRB is move sideways. Which means there must of been supply entering on the WRB. But this after the fact notion only confirms what we see during the fact.) Note that the bar following the No Demand is itself a No Supply bar. The volume is less than the previous two candles with price closing lower than the previous bar. On the very next candle we see a test. This test, however, is not a low volume test but rather a higher volume test. As usual, we look for the confirmation of the test to come one to two bars later. Here it does indeed come on the next bar. But this next bar is also a No Demand bar. It has a smaller range, closes higher, and has volume less than the previous two candles. At this point I would depart from VSA just to note that this is not a High Close Doji as the close is equal to the high of the doji, not higher. Before going into this bar a bit more from a VSA perspective, let's jump ahead two more candles. We see a narrow bar that makes a lower low, closes in its upper portion on lower volume This is a test. KEY THINGS: 1. This second test has a narrower range than the first test. 2. This second test has less volume than the first test. 3. This second test does not make a lower low than the first test. 4. This second test comes within the range of a high volume candle, more specifically, within the body of the High Volume white WRB. This second test is confirmed the next candle by a bar that closes higher than the close of the test bar itself. NOW WE HAVE A HIGH CLOSE DOJI, as the close is also higher than the high of the doji test candle. Note that the volume is higher than the test candle. In fact, the volume is very high on a wide spread. But this time we have PUSHING THRU SUPPLY (a sign of strength). The difference in the two confirmation candles after the respective test candles; Activity. Professional Money was more active on the second as evidenced by more volume than on the first. [multipage=Entry/Exit Concepts] Posted by PivotProfiler here. The concept: Best entry/signals tend to be low volume signals that occur within the range of a previously high volume bar. First, it should be noted that the attached chart was taken as the market was in a normally low volume period: the Sunday night opening period. It should also be noted that I have shown some Result on the chart and that means that the candles discussed do not appear to have the amount of volume they actually have. What that means is After the appearance of these candles with high and Ultra high volume, more candles were created with even higher volume. This gives the impression that the candles discussed have less volume. But keep in mind, we look at volume both relatively (relation to the previous bar or bars) and absolutely (actual size of the bar in question). That said, let's see what we have here. Note that the very first candle highlighted is an inverted white candle with Ultra High Volume. This gives us a Long Shadow. Long Shadows signal changes or shifts in supply and demand and so too does Ultra High Volume. After the supply enters the market there is a No Supply sign a few candles later. Despite the supply that came in, the Professional Money is not yet interested in lower prices. Price thus moves back up where we see a narrow range bar with higher volume than the previous candle. This candle also is a Doji. Note that the close of the Doji is within the range of the Long Shadow. It closes at the high of the Long Shadow. But before we get to that point, we see a white WRB created with High to Ultra High volume. Now here is the key. We see a No Demand candle, which happens to be a Doji, created within the range of the large dark WRB. But notice that this low volume signal has traversed back into the shadow of the Long Shadow inverted white hammer line and the white WRB. So we are seeing low volume in previously high volume area. If any of that volume represented buying that buying pressure is no longer present. Simply, looking at where the volume was once high and now seeing little volume is a clue that the supply/demand dynamics have certainly changed. [multipage=No Result From A Test] Topic covered by PivotProfiler located here. "No immediate results from a previous test can show weakness is present in a bear market. However, you should remain observant for a second test in a strong market. If you can see a what appears to be a successful test, the market makers, or specialists will also have seen the indication. If there is not an immediate up-move, or the up-move fails over several days (or bars, if on a shorter timeframe), this now becomes a sign of weakness. The professional money has not responded because at that moment they are still bearish.", Master the Markets, Tom Williams, P. 155. A while ago myself and BrownsFan got into a discussion about "knowing when you are wrong, or at least early into a trade". He argued that he does not know he is wrong until his stop is hit. My point at the time was that one can see if he is wrong, or wrong on timing, prior to the stop being hit. Therefore, like the POP said, there is no need to wait for the stop to be hit. Don't wait for the market to prove you wrong, look for it to prove you right. What neither of us mentioned was something NihabaAshi is a proponent of: a Contingency plan. Basically, a contingency plan is a price action pattern used to tell you something has changed and the prior signal is no longer valid. Once this pattern appears, a long is reversed into a short. Note this is different than a simple stop and reverse procedure as it is possible for the contingency plan to be triggered before one's initial stop is hit. If you are interested in contingency plans, NihabaAshi is the one to talk to. What this chart shows is based on the concept however. First we see a good test. The volume is not low, but it is not high either. It is confirmed on the next bar with a close up. This is where you go Long. My stop would be just under the low of the test bar. Note what happens next. price moves down and a dark WRB is formed. From that point, another test candle appears. On this test, the volume is lower than the first test, and the candle is at the same range of the first test. Again, this test is confirmed on the next bar. Two bars later, we see a No Demand sign. Not a good sign for the longs. This No Demand is completely within the bodies of Two WRBs (hint). But the bar that confirms the no demand sign is key. It is another large dark WRB. What is most important is that this candle (Dark WRB) closes below both test candles' lows. A dark WRB closing below the low of the test candle should trigger a trader to at least re-evaluate the long position. Note here that it would have stopped many traders out, but not all. With the appearance of a No Demand and a dark WRB that closes lower than the low(s) of the test candle(s), we have no doubt that we are seeing No Result from a Test. Our contingency plan would thus be triggered and a short is placed on the next bar. Again, understand, these are not failed tests, they are good test with no results. Simply, we have negative action. Negative Action: "If you observe a positive indication, but you do not observe the expected results, then we refer to this as 'negative action'...." P. 152 [multipage=Narrow Range Bars]Question posted by Gordon G here and replied by PivotProfiler here. Gordon G: Hi PivotProfiler, As regards Ultra Wide Spread Bar and the search for signals within its range, do you think it is worth considering also entries within narrow spread bars with ultra high volume ? Thanks PivotProfiler: Narrow range bars with Ultra High Volume are very important. However, with a narrow range bar it is less likely that a signal with appear within its range. That is, because the bar IS narrow, it is "harder" for a signal to appear within its range. Of course that depends on how narrow the range actually is. It is better if the narrow range bar comes within the range of a WRB or Long Shadow. But if a low volume signal does appear within the range of a narrow bar with Ultra High Volume, it is surely worth taking. (as long as everything else is in alignment). Chart explanation provided by PivotProfiler here. As this thread is VSA, I will not say much about the Low Close Doji pattern, but it too signals a short entry. I would say that the pattern happens where we would want it to be: within the range of a WRB. Fist let's start with the 15 min. Notice the Effort to fall sign followed by a No Demand. See how the No Demand is within the range of the Effort candle. This is a sign of weakness. Next, we see a narrow range bar with increased volume: a squat. At this time we now have seen supply enter the market and some downwards price action that will make us predisposed to be short on the trading chart. The trading chart. First Note the large white WRB. This sets-up the support/resistance zone. As I must apparently repeat things, we want to see something happen within the range of this candle. Price trades higher after that white WRB on high volume, but the range of the bar narrows, so we know that there was some supply (selling) in the high volume WRB. Now the key bar. A dark WRB (although smaller than the white WRB) appears. WRB: body greater than the three (3) prior intervals. This WRB happens to be "effort to fall". In other words, the Smart Money wants to take prices down. Note that we then get a No Demand bar within the range of this dark WRB and within the range of the large White WRB. Time to get short. Upside weakness where the market previous showed downside strength. If you missed that, There is a doji that also happens to be an Upthrust 3 bars later. Get short. Weakness in the background and an UpThrust a classic short signal. Did I mention that the Upthrust is within the body of the WRB? (well, the one's I favor would usually be) [multipage=Chart Examples Part 3] Chart explanation by Z_Trade located here in reply to idaxtrader's question located here. idaxtrader: A few months back a came across Mr. Williams first book Undeclared secerets and ever since I have been hooked on V.S.A. My first question is it necessary to read his more current book or is the original one good enough? My second question stems from a recent trade that resulted in a stop out for me. I have included the chart to illustarte the point of how I was tricked by the volume on the ES. My question is this what are the objective ways that V.S.A. can help identify a bar as hidden supply? In the book he stated if I'm correct that it should be determined as hidden supply if the bar closes in the middle of the range, has enormous volume, a climax typer of bar, or the next bar is down right after an important bar with spread,or the next bar is level then the following bar is down. In the instance where I was stopped out. The next bar was level right after a breakout. But before a down bar took place there was a follow through up bar. It is apparent that I should have been very alert for hidden supply since right after the break the next bar was level. But in actual practice with the market the bar following a break is often level on good signals. I thank everyone again for this thread and I really hope someone can shed some light on the possible ways to determine hidden supply in a up bar. Z_trade: I marked your chart to illustrate pretty simple concept. Price revisited supply area where market has spent some time on the way down. Short entry can be taken on the very next candle after narrow range low volume green /up/ candle. hdcafe's reply to the same thread located here. A few things to look for here some VSA some not. A) Your trade took place during lunch time trading 11:30 to 12:30 when volume becomes relatively light. B) The WRB just after 11:30 has no follow thru (lunch time trade?) This tends to cause the shorts to cover their positions prematurely which is what stopped out your trade. C) You have to consider the WRB with ultra high volume to be a sign of strength whether it truly is or not and once that occurs you then have to get a strong sign of weakness to take a short posistion. That sign does not come until the upthrust occurs at 1:00 I am sure you are fully aware of this but I will comment anyway. When trading the futures markets IMHO it pays NOT to use the terms "Supply and Demand". With futures, the supply is unlimited and demand is not. I prefer to use the terms "Willing Buyers and Willing Sellers". This reminds me that the Smart Money has to be searching for signs of what other traders are willing to do and not do rather than searching for the availability of a limited amount of stock. This makes the futures market that much more of mind game. It appears that you are using a 2 minute chart here. That is alot of noise to have to filter thru especially with the ES. I use a 5 minute chart on the ES and then use 3 and 4 minute charts to back up the 5 minute. Sometimes the VSA bars will be more recognizeable in different time frames. This also helps with volume changes during different times of the day. The high just before 12:30 is also an upthrust but a weak one and you could have taken the trade at the close of the down bar. I would have waited and taken the trade at the 1:00 upthrust. Pivotprofilers reply located here. * On the bar itself: 1. Closing in the middle on Ultra High Volume is a good sign of supply within the Upbar. As is closing on the low. 2. If volume is too excessive, there is a good chance that supply is swamping demand. *the real keys come in the next bar: 1. If we see Ultra High Volume on an Up bar that closes off its highs and the next bar is down. There must of been some selling (supply) in that first bar. 2. If the bar closes on its high but the next bar is down, again, some selling in the first bar. 3. If next bar is up, but the range narrows and the close is in the middle or low, there was selling (supply) in the first bar. Why else would this bar have a reluctance to go up? Reluctance is demonstrated by narrow range and middle to low close. Also look for tops to the left. If price is trading into new ground, then there may be supply contained within the bar. IF, however, there are tops to the left, or places where supply previously entered, then the volume may mean the Smart Money is willing to absorb the supply. Chart posted by walterw here. [multipage=Through the Looking Glass] Topic covered by PivotProfiler located here. Beautiful chart to post on what one should be seeing when he/she looks at the market through the prism of Volume Spread Analysis and WRB analysis. In my opinion every trader should have a "story". That is, a reason "why" price does what it does. "Why" certain players behave in certain ways. "How" the players are. "What" an overbought reading on the RSI means. VSA has a story. I believe in that story. Let's take a look at how the story placed out last week. This chart is from Friday before the Payroll report. The first thing to see is an Effort to Fall bar on the left side of the chart. VSA's story tells us that effort represent professional money trying to move price either up or down. This bar is also a WRB. I have melded the concepts of effort from VSA with WRBs. Now, WRB analysis tells us that a WRB represents a change/shift in supply/demand among other things. Therefore if there has been a shift in supply/demand it is to the downside-an effort to take the market lower would mean adding supply to the market. Okay, we need on more thing. Professional money is not sitting around a large table in a smoke-filled room saying " Let's try and take price down on the retail trader in 10 minutes.......". No some Professional money will want to go long and some may want to go short at certain price levels. So we see the cumulative actions in price and volume. Of course, those professionals that went short (for example when price rises) also see what is going on and are usually quicker than the retail trader to 1. admit they are wrong 2. get out 3.get long. Okay now let's skip to the squat bar. Bill Williams tells a good story about what this bar means. It is , however not quite correct. Our story is that the narrow range means that the market makers are keeping the spread narrow because they have a particular perception of value. In this case they are bullish. Hence they are willing to buy from the sellers entering. These traders thing they are getting a good price but fail to wonder why. Note what happened. Range narrowed, Volume increased on a bar that made a lower low and not a higher high (Selling Bar). However, this bar is not weakness rather strength. The market goes up. Take a quick look at the first effort bar. We do not close above the High of this Effort to Fall bar. Simply, the high is being supported on a closing basis. Let's skip to the first No Demand bar. This is an Ideal place to go short. It represents a low volume signal within the range of a High volume candle. Now think about the story. Supply/traders rushed in an attempt (effort) to take prices down. Price went down a bit but now has made its way back up. If volume is low that must mean one of two things: 1. All the traders that went short are still bearish. If they were not and their stops were being hit, volume should be high. 2. No rush of new bulls is taking place at this time. Again, think about what an Effort bar means. Professional money came in at a certain area with some resolve to move price down. Low volume up bars in this area should therefore be bearish: the high volume represent a desire to move price one way, the low volume should show the opposite. That is, no desire. Now let's move to the next No Demand bar. Another nice entry/add on point. Note that we again have low volume in the area of previously High volume. That high volume in fact, is on an Effort to rise candle. Same as an effort to fall, just in the opposite direction. The story changes slightly. This time we see traders willing to step in and buy the market, which results in the Effort to rise bar. Yet, price moves down. THIS IS NO RESULT FROM EFFORT. So we see no result from the effort to rise, but are seeing result form the effort to fall. Then we get an Up bar on low volume (second No Demand). Volume on an up bar is falling. Those who wanted to take price higher have lost their resolve to do so. Think about it. In this price area (range) bulls stepped in. But now in this same level they seem to be nowhere. This must be a bearish sign. One quick note: we could also see Upthurst or Squats in the area of previously high volume. These two are usually higher volume themselves, but there is a logical and consistent story here too. This chart does not show them. It shows the low volume sign within the range of previously high volume. Moreover, that low volume sign is within the body of a WRB...... [multipage=High Volume Bars] Pivotprofiler on high volume bars located here. 1. Okay, assume the High volume is the retail trader, or dumb money. Now the real questions is this: WHO IS SELLING TO THEM? 2. You do not want to "believe" in Professional money, fine. But Does there seem to be a group that is on the correct side of a trade more often than not? When volume is high at a top or bottom, somebody was doing the selling (at the top) and the buying (at the bottom). VSA seeks to emulate the traders that tend to be on the right side more than on the wrong one. Yet, in the book, Master the Markets, Tom Williams clearly says that some professional are wrong more than they are right. What separates them from the masses is their ability to admit they are wrong and get out of a bad position. They do not hope the market will turn in their favor. They do not curse their indicators (and most don't use any) when they are wrong, the simply reverse their positions. 3. VSA contends that 85% of a volume histogram is professional money. This is the one thing that I call the "leap of faith". Either you believe or you do not. But once you do, that means ALL volume bars are 85% professional money, even the small ones during the none regular trading hours. 4. Most traders have some idea of what the Smart Money is. One does not have to be specifically talking about trading syndicates to find value in the VSA story. More comments posted here by PivotProfiler. VSA teaches that the market does not like high volume upbars. Why? Because there could be HIDDEN selling within that bar. Note that the next bar is down. Why? Becuase there was supply dumped on the market. The Pros were selling not buying............ I do not mean to sound harsh. But it the basic premise of VSA that WEAKNESS comes in on up bars and STRENGTH comes in on down bars. Simply, if you were looking for more upside, then you, not the pros, were wrong. P.s. Professional money is not professional money because it is never wrong........... It is professional money because it is BETTER at being wrong. [multipage=Pushing Through Supply]Charts posted by notouch followed by commentary by PivotProfiler located here. notouch: Here are a couple of charts showing how VSA is great with hindsight but not so great in real time trading. I don't think VSA is worthless on a 5 minute chart but I don't think you can point at high volume and say "that's Professional Money!". We really have no idea who or what is behind a volume spike from one 5 minute period to the next. The 5 minute charts are useful if you're looking for the perfect entry but you're getting your directional bias from the 15 minute charts. That's why I think multi timeframing is an important part of VSA. I don't think it's necessary to try and identify who is behind a volume spike. The important thing is to recognise that reversals occur on high volume around support and resistance areas. PivotProfiler: The first thing I see on this chart are two small tops to the left that represent supply. Hence the large candle with Ultra High volume could be "Pushing thru supply". That means the volume is absorption volume as the smart money is willing to buy at higher prices. If they are willing to buy at higher prices, they must expect even higher prices. As you have said, one timeframe is usually not enough for proper analysis. [multipage=Strong Holders vs Weak Holders]Thread by PivotProfiler located here. There are a few key questions a trader needs to be able to answer: * Why do we have Bull Markets? * Why do we have Bear Markets? * Why do markets sometimes trend strongly? * Why do markets sometimes run sideways? STRONG HOLDERS Strong holders are usually those traders who have not allowed themselves to be trapped into a poor trading situation. They are happy with their position, and they will not be shaken out on a sudden down move, or sucked into the market at or near the top. Strong holders are strong because they are trading on the right side of the market. WEAK HOLDERS Weak holders are those traders who have allowed themselves to be 'locked-in' as the market moves against them, and are hoping and praying that the market will soon move back to their price level. These traders are liable to be "shaken-out" on any sudden moves or bad news. Generally, weak holders will find that they are trading on the wrong side of the market, and are therefore immediately under pressure if price turns against them. * A BULL MARKET occurs when there has been a substantial transfer of stock from Weak holders to Strong holders, generally, at a loss to the weak holders. (accumulation) * A BEAR MARKET occurs when there has been a substantial transfer of stock from Strong holders to Weak holders, generally, at a profit to the Strong holders. (distribution) It is about Supply and Demand. Volume represents little more than activity. Forget about the 85% number. Volume Spread Analysis is not a house of cards built on the foundation of this notion. What you need to understand is: A. There is a group of traders that are consistently among the Strong holders. And because of that, they tend to trade with more size. B. Large-sized Strong holders leave tracks: -- When Volume is high, it is telling. -- When volume is low it is still telling; when volume is low, nothing is being done, and that is telling. C. Even when one attributes large volume to the retail trader (usually Weak holders), one must consider who is taking the other side of the transaction. If it were other retail traders, then 90% of all retail traders wouldn't fail. There is little doubt that there is a group of traders who are consistently among the Strong Holders. Whether they are syndicate traders, hedge funds, pension funds, or banks matters little. Whether any single individual amongst the group is always right, matters even less. [multipage=Chart Examples Part 4]Original chart posted by Tasuki here and replied by PivotProfiler here. Tasuki: See attached 15 minute ES chart from today and yesterday. Just a short question on "no demand". I seem to see it every time the market starts going up, which can't be right, so if somebody would kindly straighten me out and show me which (if any) of my putative "no demand" bars are the real McCoy, I'd be most grateful. PivotProfiler: Hi. Thank you for posting. Let's start with the most basic definition of no demand: An up-bar with a narrower range than the previous bar and volume less than the previous two volume bars. I have pointed to three such situations. Now, there are at least two more things to consider that the basic definition does not; * Price: We would like to see the close in the High, middle or low of the bar. Tradeguider uses only the middle and low in its definition. * Confirming action: Is the next bar down. This is tricky and a sticking point for some. The next bar down confirms the sign, but again, by definition the sign does not need confirmation from the next bar. TG waits for confirmation before placing a sign on the bar. I too in my signs like to see the next bar close down and have a less than or equal high. Joel Pozen will paint any bar with volume less than two that closes up or equal (if the bar prior is up from the bar two bars back) as No Demand and will paint it at the close of the bar. Hence one gets a lot of No Demand bars that seem to be "out of place". Also one gets No Demand bars on bars that have greater ranges than the previous bar. For me, a bar with a greater range than the previous bar needs to have a close in the High, middle, or low not just anywhere on the bar. A close on the high, in the middle, or on the low would actually make the bar "No buying pressure" a form of No Demand but involving larger ranged bars. A better definition to use as you trade would thus at least include size of the range (narrow) and location of the price within that range ( on the high, in the middle or on the low) with volume less than two bars. To sum it up: A bar with a range narrower than the previous bar that closes equal or up on volume less than the previous two bars; and is closing either on the high of its range, the middle of its range or the low of its range. [multipage=No Demand Doji's]Thread posted by PivotProfiler located here. There is a particular type of No Demand that I did not mention before and would like to say a few things on it now. Check out the attached chart. Notice the No Demand near the middle of the chart. This is an exceptional type of No Demand bar because it is also a Doji. With a Doji I am not concerned with a narrow range. Nor does the close have to be in the high, middle or low. For candle traders, a Doji is a bar that represents indecision. This goes well with what VSA teaches us. Although it is more lack of interest then indecision-a subtle difference. Bill Williams talks about certain extreme bars. These bars, as it turns out, are Dojis with closes in the high or low of the range. He states that 95% of the time a market changes direction 1 to 3 bars later after such a bar. As VSAers, we put the missing piece together: volume. Again, VSA does not technically look at the open. Yet, No Demand bars that are also Dojis are usually very strong signs of weakness. This is one reason I like to look at the open. The other being WRBs. The astute among you will note that this bar actually closes LOWER than the previous bar. However, it is a buying bar (positional relationship) and thus a No Demand bar. [multipage=Bullish & Bearish Volume]Posted here by PivotProfiler. First we should define "Bullish and Bearish" volume: 1. Bullish volume is increasing volume on up-moves and decreasing volume on down-moves. 2. Bearish volume is increasing volume on down-moves and decreasing volume on up-moves. Now we can incorporate the concept of The path of least resistance: * It takes an increase of buying (demand), on up-days or bars, to force the market up. * It takes an increase of selling (supply), on down-days or bars , to force the market down. The appearance of No Demand (low volume) on an up-move, shows little or no buying. Which means, if there is no trading going on in one direction, the path of least resistance is generally in the opposite direction. The appearance of No Supply (low volume) on a down-move shows little or no selling pressure. Which means, if there is no trading going on in one direction, the path of least resistance is generally in the opposite direction. Posted by Blowfish here. Price advancing on declining volume = weakness (no 'pro' support for the move) Price declining rapidly (wide bar) on climatic volume but closing up. VSA is based on Wycoff's ideas regarding acumulation/distribution and volume however it does go a fair way further. [multipage=No Demand Bars]Posted by PivotProfiler here. The story continues........ Here is more on the underlying story. I have noticed that very often after a No Demand/No Supply (or low volume in general), 1-3 bars later we see an Effort bar. Let's examine the story. No Demand means there is little to no activity by the Professional Money. For practical purposes, we will define Professional Money as those traders who trade with enough size to actual effect market change by creating imbalances in supply and demand. Now if the Professional Money is not buying as prices rise, then the must expect that prices are poised to fall. If they expect price to fall, one should not be surprised to see a bar in the down direction where volume picks ups as they try (effort) to take price in their desired ( or expected) direction. This is shows up as an Effort to Fall bar. Individually, neither bar is defined by the other. That is to say, they are independently defined. Hence their propensity to occur around each other gives more insight into the validity of the story they purport to tell. Note that the chart also tells the opposite and as telling situation: a No Demand in the range of an Effort to Rise bar. As there was an effort to take price higher, price moved down. It begins to move back up. However, there is no longer any interest in higher prices. Since we are in the range or area where Bulls rushed in, we would expect more bulls to rush in. Or at least the same bulls to exert more force (effort). By NOT seeing this, we can see underlying weakness in the market. Story is the "why". Story coupled with repetition allows us to see things as being more than mere coincidence. Story gets us thru the down draws. All those traders looking for the "Grail" , might first start out by finding a story they can believe in. It wont take away the losses, but it makes them more palatable. [multipage=VSA Formulas]Posted by PivotProfiler here. No Demand 301 Base Definition: Narrow range bar closing up with volume less than the previous two (2) bars. p. 32, Master the Markets. TG (signal): Narrow range bar closing up with volume less than the previous two(2) bars. The close should be in the middle or low of the bar. p 153, Master the Markets. Joel Pozen (Signal) No Demand & No Supply: No Demand: C>ref(C,-1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) No Dmenad2: C=ref(C,-1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and ref(C,-1)>ref(C,-2) No Supply: C<ref(C,-1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) No Supply2: C=ref(C,-1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and ref(C,-1)<ref(C,-2) --Some Observations-- * Joel makes no distinction as to range nor location of the close within that range. * TG uses some criteria that involves the bar after the potential No Demand bar. a. This gives fewer "false signals". * Joel's method also captures some Test bars and other low volume signs like No Buying Pressure * While there is one definition in TG, they actually have multiple definitions as each one creates a different dialog box in the software. Pivot Profiler (signals) No Demand and No Supply: NoDemand:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1),1,0); NoSupply:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1),1,0); NoDemand2:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and C=O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply2:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and C=O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand3:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand2=0,1,0); NoSupply3:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply2=0,1,0); NoDemand4:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand2=0,1,0); NoSupply4:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply2=0,1,0); NoDemand5:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand2=0,1,0); NoSupply5:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply2=0,1,0); NoDemand6:=If(C>ref(C,-1) and (H-L)<ref((H-L),-1) and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand=0,1,0); NoSupply6:=If(C<ref(C,-1) and (H-L)<ref((H-L),-1) and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply=0,1,0); NoDemand7:=If(C>ref(C,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and C=O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand=0,1,0); NoSupply7:=If(C<ref(C,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and C=O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply=0,1,0); NoDemand8:=If(C>ref(C,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand=0,1,0); NoSupply8:=If(C<ref(C,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply=0,1,0); NoDemand9:=If(C>ref(C,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand=0,1,0); NoSupply9:=If(C<ref(C,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply=0,1,0); NoDemand10:=If(C>ref(C,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand=0,1,0); NoSupply10:=If(C<ref(C,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply=0,1,0); NoDemand11:=If(C=ref(C,-1) and (H-L)<ref((H-L),-1) and C=O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand=0,1,0); NoSupply11:=If(C=ref(C,-1) and (H-L)<ref((H-L),-1) and C=O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply=0,1,0); NoDemand12:=If(C=ref(C,-1) and (H-L)<ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand=0,1,0); NoSupply12:=If(C=ref(C,-1) and (H-L)<ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply=0,1,0); NoDemand13:=If(C=ref(C,-1) and (H-L)<ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand=0,1,0); NoSupply13:=If(C=ref(C,-1) and (H-L)<ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply=0,1,0); NoDemand14:=If(C=ref(C,-1) and (H-L)<ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoDemand=0,1,0); NoSupply14:=If(C=ref(C,-1) and (H-L)<ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2) and NoSupply=0,1,0); NoDemand15:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C>=ref(C,-1) and C=O and C=ref(C,+1) and C>ref(C,+2) and H>=ref(H,+1) and H>=ref(H,+2) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply15:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C<=ref(C,-1) and C=O and C=ref(C,+1) and C<ref(C,+2) and L<=ref(L,+1) and L<=ref(L,+2) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand16:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C>=ref(C,-1) and C=H and C<>O and C=ref(C,+1) and C>ref(C,+2) and H>=ref(H,+1) and H>=ref(H,+2) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply16:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C<=ref(C,-1) and C=L and C<>O and C=ref(C,+1) and C<ref(C,+2) and L<=ref(L,+1) and L<=ref(L,+2) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand17:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C>=ref(C,-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C=ref(C,+1) and C>ref(C,+2) and H>=ref(H,+1) and H>=ref(H,+2) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply17:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C<=ref(C,-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C=ref(C,+1) and C<ref(C,+2) and L<=ref(L,+1) and L<=ref(L,+2) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand18:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C>=ref(C,-1) and C=L and C<>O and C=ref(C,+1) and C>ref(C,+2) and H>=ref(H,+1) and H>=ref(H,+2) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply18:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C<=ref(C,-1) and C=H and C<>O and C=ref(C,+1) and C<ref(C,+2) and L<=ref(L,+1) and L<=ref(L,+2) and V<ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand19:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and C=O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply19:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and C=O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand20:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply20:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand21:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply21:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand22:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply22:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V<ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand23:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and C=O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply23:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and C=O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand24:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply24:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand25:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply25:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand26:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply26:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V<ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand27:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and C=O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply27:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and C=O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand28:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply28:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand29:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply29:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=((H-L)*0.5)+L and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoDemand30:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=L and C<>O and C>ref(C,+1) and H>=ref(H,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); NoSupply30:=If(L<ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)<=ref((H-L),-1) and C=H and C<>O and C<ref(C,+1) and L<=ref(L,+1) and V=ref(V,-1) and V=ref(V,-2),1,0); -I wanted to place myself between TG and Joel. That is, I wanted more than Signs than TG but fewer and better placed signs than Joel. -I have used confirmation bars, but any low volume bar, especially a buying bar (or selling bar for no supply), gets my attention. -I have broadened the definition of low volume. I include volume equal to the previous two bars. Volume equal to the previous bar and less than the bar two bars back. And volume less than the previous bar and equal to the bar two bars back. -Some UpThursts, Tests, No Buying Pressure, and No Selling Pressure bars are picked up as well. Thus, being able to READ the chart remains an essential element of success. -It bares repeating, these are not simply buy/sell signals in and of themselves. Background information is needed (effort bars, WRBs, WSBs, High Volume bars with the next bar down............) As VSAers we have to adhere to certain fundamental principles, but we should not let ourselves be boxed-in. Case in Point: The "ideal" Test bar will have an equal or lower range, make a lower low than the previous bar, close down and close on its high with volume less than the previous two bars. NEWS FLASH: This is the definition of a Selling Bar. Thus, while the book doesn't explicitly mention selling bars, they are part of the picture. To call the bar a selling bar belies the actual strength that is contained within it. TG, therefore, may choose not to mention this to avoid confusion. Take this for what it is worth. Remeber, we are not talking about buy/sell indicators. Understanding the Supply/Demand dynamics is essential. Posted by Pivot Profiler here. Effort Bars I define Effort bars as follows: EffortU1:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and O<=((H-L)*0.1)+L and C>=((H-L)*0.9)+L and C>ref(C,-1) and Mp()>ref(H,-1) and V>ref(V,-1) and V>VolAve and V<=2*VolAve and WRB=1,1,0); EffortD1:=If(L>ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and O>=((H-L)*0.9)+L and C<=((H-L)*0.1)+L and C<ref(C,-1) and Mp()<ref(L,-1) and V>ref(V,-1) and V>VolAve and V<=2*VolAve and WRB=1,1,0); EffortU2:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and O<=((H-L)*0.2)+L and C>=((H-L)*0.8)+L and C>ref(C,-1) and Mp()>=ref(H,-1) and V>ref(V,-1) and V>2*VolAve and V<=4*VolAve and WRB=1 and C<ref(C,+1),1,0); EffortD2:=If(L>ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and O>=((H-L)*0.8)+L and C<=((H-L)*0.2)+L and C<ref(C,-1) and Mp()<=ref(L,-1) and V>ref(V,-1) and V>2*VolAve and V<=4*VolAve and WRB=1 and C>ref(C,+1),1,0); EffortU3:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and O<=((H-L)*0.1)+L and C>=((H-L)*0.9)+L and C>ref(C,-1) and Mp()>ref(H,-1) and V>ref(V,-1) and V>2*VolAve and V<=4*VolAve and WRB=1 and C<ref(C,+1),1,0); EffortD3:=If(L>ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and O>=((H-L)*0.9)+L and C<=((H-L)*0.1)+L and C<ref(C,-1) and Mp()<ref(L,-1) and V>ref(V,-1) and V>2*VolAve and V<=4*VolAve and WRB=1 and C>ref(C,+1),1,0); EffortU4:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and O<=((H-L)*0.2)+L and C>=((H-L)*0.8)+L and C>ref(C,-1) and Mp()>=ref(H,-1) and V<VolAve and V>ref(V,-1) and V>ref(V,-2) and WRB=1,1,0); EffortD4:=If(L>ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)>ref((H-L),-1) and O>=((H-L)*0.8)+L and C<=((H-L)*0.2)+L and C<ref(C,-1) and Mp()<=ref(L,-1) and V<VolAve and V>ref(V,-1) and V>ref(V,-2) and WRB=1,1,0); EffortU5:=If(H>ref(H,-1) and L>=ref(L,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and O<=((H-L)*0.1)+L and C>=((H-L)*0.9)+L and C>ref(C,-1) and Mp()>ref(H,-1) and V>VolAve and V>ref(V,-1) and ref(V,-1)>ref(V,-2) and WRB=1,1,0); EffortD5:=If(L>ref(L,-1) and H<=ref(H,-1) and (H-L)=ref((H-L),-1) and O>=((H-L)*0.9)+L and C<=((H-L)*0.1)+L and C<ref(C,-1) and Mp()<ref(L,-1) and V>VolAve and V>ref(V,-1) and ref(V,-1)>ref(V,-2) and WRB=1,1,0); Beautiful shot showing No Result from an Effort to Rise/or Negative Action. Note how price fails to close above the close of the Effort candle. [multipage=Anotomy of a Trade Set-up]Posted by PivotProfiler here. Let's take a look at a nice trade set-up here. Actual profit was around 20 pips, but that is really not the issue. THE ISSUE IS HOW WE VIEW SUPPLY/DEMAND DYNAMICS IN REALTIME & HOW WE TRADE WITH "SIGNS" THAT USE FUTURE BARS (CONFIRMATION BARS). First turn your attention to the chart on the left. This is a 15 min chart. The first thing to note is an area that is not labeled. In the Middle of the chart is an Effort to rise bar. However, price does not make a higher high and in fact trades lower: No result from an effort to rise/Negative action. This is the first clue of a change in the market. To be sure, momentum does take the market higher. Now let's jump over to the right hand chart, the 5 min. #1 is a Wide Spread bar up bar with ultra high volume that closes off its high and the next bar is down. Supply entered the market here. Note also that this is a WRB and creates a Support/Resistance zone. This is key. We now have a High volume bar that is a WRB. We would love to see a low volume sign within the body of this bar. (we don't get it). Price does indeed begin to fall from this point as Supply entered the market. #1a. After the initial down fall we see an Effort to Rise. Please note that effort bars do not need confirmation. Thus at 2:55 at the close of the bar we know we have just seen an effort to rise bar. No reason to get long. Nothing on the 15 would merit it. The next bar(s) do not make a higher high. We are thus starting to see No Result on the very Next bar as it does not make a higher high. #2 1/2 we jump back over to the 15 min char. We get an up bar with a narrow range an volume less than the previous two bars.THIS IS THE BASE DEFINITION OF NO DEMAND. This bar closes at 3:00. Now, for confirmation, we will need to wait until the close of the 3:15 bar. My software will place the sign on the bar at the close of its period and keep it there as long as the criteria remain met. Thus at the close at 3:00 a red dot actually appears. It would disappear if the next bar makes a higher high and not return. It would also disappear if the current price is equal to or greater than the close of the previous bar. But if the current price changes, the dot would come back. But let's assume the dot does not show up in the first place. We know we have just seen the base definition of No Demand. At 3:05, we see a bar that closes equal to the Effort to Rise bar. This is NO RESULT FROM AN EFFORT TO RISE/NEGATIVE ACTION. We would actually like to see this price lower than the low, but the bar prior does trade lower than the effort bar. Simply, we are not seeing support at the low of the effort bar. In sum: We have a base definition of No Demand on the 15. We have seen supply enter on a wide spread bar with ultra high volume and we now have no result from an effort to rise: GET SHORT on 5 min. #5 This bar confirms the No Demand bar. At its close the x appears and the dot is there for good. So, if we assume only appears at the end of the next bar, then it would appear now at the same time the x appears. BUT WE ARE ALREADY SHORT BECAUSE WE KNOW THE BAR TO BE NO DEMAND. Yes the "sign" may come "after the fact" as the detractors say, but since we know how to read the chart, we are already in the trade. EDIT: almost forgot to mention that the effort to rise bar was within the body of the WRB (hmmm, have I mentioned that before?). [multipage=On Gaps]Posted by PivotProfiler here. The old adage is that "Gaps are filled". Here is an example of a Gap play on the open of the day. The market opens up with a gap to the downside. The first bar we see is a dark WRB. (Note: while it is beyond the scope of this post, this dark WRB actually forms another larger "gap" and is thus even more reason to be thinking that price should move higher in order to fill the gap.) Things start to get interesting when we see the first labeled No Supply bar. The appearance of this bar itself is something to note, but there is another No Supply bar a few bars prior, and price continues down. What makes this one of note is that a previously mentioned pattern occurs. That is, one to three bars later, we see an Effort to Rise bar. We have now seen low volume on a down bar followed by an Effort to Rise. Is the path of least resistance changing? The volume on the next bar increases and the range narrows. This is a Squat. Supply is entering the market. Again, we see another pattern show itself as the very next bar after the Squat is a No Supply bar. The low volume tells us that Demand must of been swamping Supply on the previous bar (Squat). Now we have are signal. We have a low volume sign within the range of a high(er) volume bar (the Effort bar), which is also a WRB. Things are fine until we get to the No Demand bar. Note that the market does not completely fill the gap at this point. But now we have something happening within the range of the Support/Resistance Zone created by the Gap. On the next bar we see a No Supply bar. Time to move stop to just below this bar. This is an example of playing the gap to fill. We were always looking to go long. It thus becomes a matter of "how and when do we get long" not "if" we get long. We did not try to get in on the bottom, but top and bottom pickers become cotton pickers. [multipage=Chart Examples Part 5]Posted by PivotProfiler here. Check out the chart on the left: It was clear that the trend was down on the day. Why fight that? The market gives us a Dark WRB followed by a No Supply bar. A few bars later, we get a Valid Test. Taken together this is a time to get long. More precisely, taken in isolation, this is a time to get long. Isolation because it ignores: multiple timeframes, current trend (a trend in motion tends to stay in motion), lack of any accumulation phased needed to make a sustainable rise possible. Now, suppose one went long. As previously mentioned, a contingency plan should be in place. Once there is a Dark WRB that closes below the low of the Test bar, it is time to reverse position and get short. At that point we see Negative Action or No Result from a Test. This is weakness. True that the No Supply is strength and the Test is strength, but what results from their existence proves to be weakness. If one was trying to surrender to the market, one would not be looking to get long in the first place. Now the No Result from a Test/Negative Action is actually a Signal to get short. I used to call Walter (and other indicator traders) the short bus-squigglely line crew . Now I am one of them. The Balance of Power Line was signaling bullish control as the PRICE ACTION SET- UP was appearing. While the indicator is NOT used to signal a trade, it is used to nullify a Price Action signal. There is no need to worry how much volume is needed to change the trend-create a bottom or top. Tops and bottoms can pick themselves. The chart on the right. This chart shows two more great short Price Action Set-ups. We get our WRB and then a VSA sign within the body of the WRB. In both cases the No Demand comes when the Bears our in power (red). Multiple timeframes can help us know that the trend is down. Traditional use of indicators probably would have none looking for an "oversold" signal and a way to get long....... Note that there is a Price Action Long Set-up in-between the two shorts. Good in isolation, but we don't trade in isolation. The Balance of Power favors the bears. More importantly, once we get that Dark WRB that closes below the low of the test bar, we know we have Negative Action/No Results from a Test. In other words, weakness. Posted by PivotProfiler here. When it all comes together: 15 min chart. Valid White Hammer (open>close) Pattern. The whit hammer line completes at 0930. 5 min chart. Dark hammer line creates a Long Shadow. We see a doji, which in VSA terms is a Test bar. Now the hammer closed in the upper portion of its range on higher volume and closed equal to the previous bar-there must of been Demand entering on that bar. The next bar is a test for Supply. Technically a test is confirmed by a close higher than the close of the test bar one to two bar later. One bar later we get that. The time is 0930. So as the trade-frame is confirming a test within the range of a Long Shadow bar where demand swamped supply, the trend-frame completes a Bullish White Hammer Pattern PivotProfiler's replies to chart posted by Tingull. Thread is located here. My two cents: Trade 1- I see a valid High close Doji pattern. From a VSA point of view, I see an Effort to Rise bar. Which you correctly pointed out. In short, I would of most likely gone long here too :sad:. Trade 2- I see a valid white hammer pattern which culminates with the white hammer line. You are correct with the No Supply (low volume) candle prior to the hammer line. I have also marked off another No Supply that appears within the range of a WRB as an alternative entry signal. Moving back a bit. We see the candle prior to the first No Supply has High Volume and a wide spread but closes on the upper portion of the range. Some Demand must of entered on this bar. (Strength comes in on down bars) Reply by mistered to Rajiv's chart. Thread is located here. I have attached your chart with short-term support and resistance drawn in by myself - the levels are rough but hopefully get the idea across. Support 1 and 2 show where there were small bounces in the downtrend, then a (small) gap lower. Then resistance forms just under the prior support. The large white candle off the low shows demand coming in, and you would expect to get a trade higher in coming days. What you do get is an immediate reaction, on the following bar no less, all the way up to short-term resistance, above the 50% retracement but below the 61.8. In conclusion, and from a short-term perspective, this is the reaction, and with the confluence of the Fib retracement levels and the support that has now become resistance, this is the shorting area and bar, if that is the trade sought. Chart posted by Tasuki here. Chart and explanation by Shreem located here. First, on the hourly chart, we see a WRB which serve as a change in polarity between buyers and sellers and serve as a support/resistance zone that we can use to find possbile entries in the future. Later, we see an up-trust which is also a squat bar which illustrate again the concept in VSA of change in polarity from the buyers to the sellers. In effect, if there was a real intention by the big players to continue to push price higher as indicated by the previous bar, why then after making a higher high on higher volume than the previous WRB candle, this bar closed in the low and at the same time having a spread range lower than previous bar but with volume bigger than previous bar? This activity, on one hand, show the intention of big players to suck in new longs so that they can take their stop and add fuel to the downside (up-trust) and, on the other hand, a definite turn around of polarity represented by the formation of the squat bar which is also the same bar as the up-trust. This squat bar, by having a higher volume with a narrower spread and making new high show clearly that the "balance of power" shifted to the sellers. Most importantly, in relation to the previous WRB support/resistance zone, we see an effort to fall candle (19:00-20:00pm est) with high volume but failing to close on the low followed by a successful test ( 21:00-22:00pm est) with a volume less than the 2 previous bars. The salient point of these 2 candles is that they do appears in the previous WRB support/resistance zone and both of them failed to filled the open of this previous WRB. Finally, looking at the 15 min chart, we see a failed test (19:45-20:00pm est) on high volume in the previous WRB support/resistance zone followed 6 candles later by a successful test (21:15-21:30pm est) with a range narrower than the previous test and with a volume less than the previous test. According to my little understanding of VSA concepts, this multi-timeframes analysis is a good example of the power of VSA in one own's analysis. Particularly if one look to find signals of lower volume in the range of previous higher volume in a zone of a previous WRB support/resistance zone. All of the above is just my 2 cents and do just represent my new and beginner understanding of VSA concepts and WRB concepts from PivotProfiler and NihabaAshi by their posts on this forum and others. Chart and explanation by PivotProfiler located here. The trade for the day was to the upside (see next post). Thus, this would be a counter trend trade until the market falls far enough to constitute a change in trend. Also there are time of day issues to be concerned with. I really like the interaction between the 15 min chart and the 5 min chart. In this example we see signs on the 15 that there may be a top of some sort. That is, we get a No Demand sign after a healthy day's trend. The market falls and then we see a Squat. Supply is entering the market on this bar. Note that we do not see a WRB with something happening within its body here at the top. Shift to the 5. First we get a Test. The bar that confirms the Test, turns out to be a No Demand candle itself. A few bars later we see a dark WRB that closes below the low of the test bar: No result from a test/Negative Action. Simply, weakness. We then see a Squat which is also an Up Thrust. Note that we close on the low, make a higher high and have higher volume than previous bar. Supply enters here. Yet, the market claws it way even higher. Then we get a Trap Up Move, or Squat. Again more supply entering the market. Finally, we get a narrow range bar that closes up from the previous bar on higher volume and closes in the middle of its range. This is a clear sign of supply entering the market and a Squat. So we have a WRB that has high(er) volume and a high volume sign with the body of said WRB. [multipage=On Patience]Posted by PivotProfiler here. Those who look at static charts see signs with an almost uncanny precision. That is, they see many market turns being "called" by these signs. They go as far as to say, "I can buy tops and bottoms on these incredible buy and sell signals". What the charts do not convey, is PATIENCE. Many signs of strength or signs of weakness show up as two or three bar patterns. Most fall into the two bar category. No Demand is defined as an up bar with volume less than the previous two bars on a narrow spread. This base definition, however, fails to look at the next bar where we would want to see the close LOWER than the previous bar, confirming a lack of demand. This is true of a Test. While a low volume test will close lower than the previous bar, close on its middle or high and have volume less than the previous two bars, it is not truly confirmed until we see a close higher than the test bar. This needs to come on the NEXT bar or the bar after that at the latest. That is why these will show up "one bar late" to some. In truth, what is happening is this: one bar is looked at as cause and the following bar is looked at as effect. If you see a wide spread bar on ultra high volume closing near the high (cause), but the next bar is down (effect), then there must of been SELLING in the Wide Spread bar. "..A wide spread up on high volume shows effort to go up. If the next bar is down, this demonstrates that with the high volume seen on the day before, selling overcame the demand, otherwise, prices could not possibly have fallen the next day........." Master the Markets,Tom Williams, P. 145. "If a market is moving upwards on wide spreads, accompanied by high volume and no progress is seen on the NEXT day (bar), this shows the volume contains more selling than buying." IBID, p.154 "For a market to drop, selling pressure needs to be evident, which normally shows itself as wide spreads down on high volume. If the next day is down this usually confirms that the volume seen on the day (bar) before is genuine selling. However, if the next day is up then it shows that there was selling going on, but the professional money was prepared to buy and support the market as well...." IBID, P. 166 Again, the point is that one should usually be waiting one bar after seeing the high volume or the low volume (in the case of No Demand/No Supply or Tests). Having the patience to wait one day(bar) or two allows for a more acurate and complete view of what is happening.

Hi all, I have recently discovered VSA and am a bit bummed that the topic appears dead on this forum, where I incidentally first discovered the topic. It's kind of a bummer that while there seems to be a lot of good stuff, how many dead links and images and so forth there are. Has the VSA crowd moved to a new home or is everyone just satisfied with the material that has been posted and doesn't feel like there is anything new to add?

Since the VSA II thread now has over 2,200 posts and 128,000 visits, it seemed time to start VSA III. To get us rolling, here is quick VSA look at how the market unfolded this morning on the 3-minute time frame (S&P e-minis). The market opened higher than yesterday’s close, fell off over the first 15 minutes to A, and then tried to rally. B – the rally to B did not bring out demand, and the bars at B were weak, closing on their lows. C – A very weak bar with an increase in spread and volume to the downside. Supply came into the market here. D – No demand on the first rally after weakness appeared and a good short. E – Volume drops off as the market moves lower into the area of yesterday’s close. F – A bottom reversal on good spread indicating demand. G – the market tests the lows of E/F and is unable to draw supply. As it begins to rally, it tests again at G1. H – An increase in volume with a good close, but the spread narrows – caution for longs. J – Down bar, on wide spread and high volume shows supply has reentered the market. J – No Demand followed by a small hidden upthrust. K – Again we come back into the lows and find no supply and the market rallies. T – Tests occur below the resistance at I indicating a rally and a break of I. L – small bottom reversal/key reversal bar which tests for supply by dipping lower one last time before moving up to close on its high. M – Break through the resistance at I and a rally into the noon hour. Note that the volume falls off as we move into the noon hour and come into the morning supply at A. Hope this is helpful, Eiger

This is a continuation of the VSA Officially Summary Part . Many of the VSA terms are presented in Part 1. Part 2 will attempt to organize charts as well as insights from the main [VSA] Volume Spread Analysis Part II thread. Please do not use this thread to post any comments. Please post all suggestions, questions, and feedbacks in the original thread located here. If you find I have missed a post that should be included in this summary, please do not hesitate to contact me directly. Enjoy! (The summary will be updated gradually so please bear with me.) [multipage=VSA Charts]Posted by Sledge in this post . Interesting early morning action in the Euro. Check out the chart below. First we see a dark WRB followed by a GAP in price. Note the first candle with a double arrow. Notice that the volume is ultra high and the bar closes lower than the previous bar and off of its low. VSA teaches that this is a bar that may have buying within it. Now the next bar is key. It turns out to be a WRB, but the fact that the bar is up means the prior bar MUST of had some buying contained within it. Now we move to the white WRB itself. Note that this bar creates a zone or range where we get a change in the supply/demand dynamic. We also know that the market does not like wide spread up bars on ultra high volume because of the possibility of hidden selling. In this case, however, the volume actually fell from the previous bar and is not ultra high. We move to the next candle with a double arrow below. This is a doji that closes equal to the previous bar and in the upper portion of its range. Volume on this bar is Ultra high. There is SUPPLY in the market at this stage. Price moves down from here. Next candle, closes in the upper portion of its range and higher than its open. Volume again is extreme. Here we have Demand showing itself. In other words, Demand is swamping Supply on this bar. SOMETHING HAS CHANGED. Notice that the next bar closes in its middle, has an equal close and volume drops off. The Last bar closes on its high on volume that is less than the previous two bars. Although it does not make a lower low, this is a 'test' bar. The Smart Money is testing for supply and finds none. Now price is poised to go up and fill that gap. Posted by Sledge in this post here. Not all WRBs are created equal. While there may be many factors in what constitutes a significant WRB, the three main are: * Size in relation to other WRBs * Amount of volume * If the WRB is the result of some news related event NihabaAshi is the true WRB expert and may be able to enlighten us as to some of the more reasons that determine a WRB's significant. As I know you are looking at VSA, don't let what I just said about WRBs confuse you. There are three factors that constitute significant bars in VSA as well: * Size in relation to other wide spread bars * Amount of volume * If the wide spread bar is the result of some news related event Now in the chart below we see numerous WRBs or wide to Ultra wide spread bars. However, they are all not equal. Let's just focus on the very first one on the left hand side of the chart. We see an Ultra Wide Spread bar with Ultra High Volume that closes up from the previous bar. VSA teaches us that markets do not like Ultra Wide Spread or Wide Spread bars on high or Ultra high volume. Because they could hide selling (supply) within them. Although some times they are indeed strength. Which by the way, much time is spent on in the bootcamp. Because many people after hearing weakness (supply) comes in on up bars automatically assume all up bars are weak. We know this bar had some selling (supply) once we see that the next bar is down. If all that volume was buying (demand) then the next bar could not be down. What we often see next, if the market is strong, is either a No Supply or Test for supply bar. Here we see a test. This is a low volume test. Note that volume is less than the previous two bars. Note that the test makes a lower low than the previous bar and closes on its high. It hard for me to separate some things, so I must point out that this test bar is in body of the WRB. But from a pure VSA point, note that the test is within the range of the Ultra Wide Spread bar. SIMPLY, A LOW VOLUME SIGNAL WITHIN THE RANGE OF A PRVIOUSLY HIGH VOLUME BAR. Many concepts in VSA are logical. Here we see some supply enter the market. The next thing we see is a test of supply. The Professional want to take prices up, but are making sure that the supply is out of the market. If there were sellers underneath, then there would be more volume. And if a large amount of supply had entered (more than the demand present) then price would go down on more volume. The key(s) here are that the 'test' comes immediately after we see supply enter the market showing us market strength. Or, simply put, location and background information. An aggressive trader might enter once the test is "proven" on the next bar that closes higher than the close of the test. Shown here. The reason for the question mark is that not everyone would enter at this point. Some use multiple timeframes, some use price action patterns, and some even use indicators ( ). To be sure, the market did indeed move up and a quick profit could have been made. In fact, one could still be long as of this pic and in profit using only one timeframe and that repeatable and reliable pattern. Once you witness Ultra Wide or Wide Spread bars on High or Ultra High Volume, you want to then start looking for bars with low volume. This is where you find no supply, no demand, and some test bars. Sometimes there will be high volume tests or Upthrusts on high volume. An Upthrust is kind of like a high volume test but showing weakness rather than strength. That is, a high volume test will close on or near its high and an Upthrust closes on or near its low. Ideally a high volume test will make a lower low while the Upthrust will make a higher high. There is a lot more here, but it is enough to say that every No Supply or No Selling Pressure sign in this pic is within the range of a significant Wide or Ultra Wide Spread bar. More precisely, within the body of a significant WRB. Posted by Sledge here. Nice Bullish White Hammer pattern. Note that the white hammer line is inside the range of the Ultra Wide Spread Ultra High Volume candle. When we take a look at the WRB, we see a down candle that has an ultra wide spread and closes on its low. There would appear to be heavy selling pressure in this bar. BUT THE NEXT BAR IS UP. If that bar was true selling, then the next bar would not be up. In fact, if one looks at what price did after that bar it moved up. Clearly, the Professional demand created an upward drift in price. Simply, that WRB must of been a shift/change in the Supply/Demand dynamics of the market. Now note the large dark Candle just prior to the shaded area. This candle closes on its low , closes lower than the previous bar and has volume less than the previous two bars. This is No Selling pressure. The close on the low fools the retail trader into seeing weakness. The lack of volume, however, is the real clue. Price does move down a bit and create the bullish hammer pattern. Note that the hammer line itself is a VSA shakeout/test bar. This is the "ideal" set-up. We see strength come in using our primary methods (VSA and WRB) and then we get a buy signal via our secondary method (Japanese candlestick patterns). Posted by Sledge here. What did they know, and when did they know it? OR the importance of Volume. Here is a chart of some of today's price action in the Euro. What is telling here is the actions of Professional Money PRIOR to the news release. We can see when they begin to position themselves and on what side through the use of VSA. Almost an hour beforehand, we see an Ultra Wide Spread Bar with Ultra High Volume, that closes down from the previous bar and closes in the middle of its range. This bar represents a transfer of ownership. That is, the Professionals are buying from the retail traders. Why would they be buying prior to a usually volatile news release ? Seems like a risky thing to do. Could they already have an idea of what it will say? Now VSA tells us that if this is the case, we would expect that if they are BUYING now, they will be SELLING into the release itself for profit taking. Especially If the news spurs the retail traders into entering the market on the long side. However, if the retail trader is believes the news to be bearish, they (Smart Money) would be BUYING more. That is, if the retail traders are getting short, who are they selling to? So we should see both Professional selling and buying. We don't expect then to get net short in other words. Check out the large dark hammer as the news is released. There was some profit taking on that bar. But the bar has ultra High volume, closes on its low with the next bar up. Some buying must of taken place as well. More exactly, they took profits and then began buying as the retail traders (weak hands) rushed in on the short side. We always want to consider "who is on the other side" with VSA. Usually, its the Smart Money and that is not good. I should say, without VSA it's usually the Smart Money and that is not good. Note that price did begin to fall for a few bars. But then we get a dark hammer line. The Long Shadow of the hammer line happens, not so coincidently, to trade into the region of the First candle mentioned where the transfer of ownership begun. The Smart Money is becoming aggressive on the demand side. They are locking in the weak holders (retail shorts) as they know price is going HIGER NOT LOWER. The down move and the dark hammer itself may have even pushed some weak longs out. If you look at a chart beyond the time shown here, you will see the strong up move that ensues. 1. The Smart Money began getting long (long) prior to the News. 2. Some used the event to take a bit of profit. 3. Most got even more long (demand). 4. Once the weak holders where short, price found support in a such a way as to knock out weak longs and lock in weak shorts. 5. what can not be seen in this picture, is a large inverted white hammer that represents the last effort for the weak shorts to get out at break even if the bought on the news release itself. When we use VSA we get a 3 dimensional picture: volume, range and price. Ignoring one of them (like volume or keeping volume constant) is like cutting off one leg of a tripod............... Posted by Sledge here. If there has been a theme to my posts recently, it is summed up in the word: CONTEXT. I am learning to use candlestick patterns as a secondary method. By that I mean, entry set-up signals. VSA and WRB & Long Shadow analysis are the primary methods and are used to understand the contextual backdrop thru which a candlestick pattern trade can be taken. Take a look at the chart below. We see a WRB on Ultra High Volume. VSA tells us that markets do not like Wide Spread up bars on Ultra High Volume. Because there could be hidden selling in the bar. Now check out the very next bar. This bar has almost as much volume as the WRB, in fact it has 3 ticks less. BUT the range is much more narrow and the bar closes in the middle of its range. This is a transfer of ownership bar. The Smart Money is dumping supply into the market. As retail traders rush in to get long, the Smart Money is all too happy to sell to them. Like I said, we need to always be aware of who is on the other side of the trade. While this bar is up, on high volume it is not "up volume". Most volume indicators and volume analysis would assume it is positive. But we know better than that. A few bars later, we see a narrow bar that close up from the previous bar and closes in the upper portion of its range, but on volume less than the previous two bars. This is No Demand. Professionals are not interested in higher prices at this time. At this point we have context. Supply has entered the market. Note that price overall begins to move sideways. There are some who would go short after the No Demand with the background selling that can be seen. This is a personal choice. For me, all that the context says is, "now is not the time to be going long". I need to see some candle pattern, preferably within the range of the WRB, to get me short. (if you look at a chart from today, you will see that price plummeted after the jobs report). But my point is this, the context, or story, at this time says more about NOT going long than simply get short. A Tradeguider "sign of weakness" might appear on the transfer of ownership bar. It would therefore look like the top was called and thus possibly sold. This is the error that most indicator only traders who look at TG make. Posted by Sledge here. BEFORE & AFTER: I have attached two charts. The first is the before and the second is the after. Let's look at the before. For me the key concept comes thru at least a basic understanding of WRBs. Of course, VSA doesn't look at the open, but I think much is missed if you don't. More over, I think that if VSA did, they would come to the same conclusion. And in fact, they DO come to the same conclusion partially when dealing with wide spread bars (more on this later). The first bar with the double arrow is a wide spread bar that closes in the middle on ultra high volume. Supply enters the market on this bar. Not a place to go short. The reason: the reason is explained in the next highlighted bars. The next bar we have is a Long Shadow and in VSA terms, it is Ultra Wide Spread bar on high volume, that closes lower than the previous bar, and closes in the upper portion of the range. DEMAND entered the market on this bar. Now, here is where I depart from VSA. We now have a Long Shadow that creates a support/resistance zone. We also see that this Long Shadow tells us that demand overcame supply on the lower portion of the bar. Not to mention, this bar is a Doji (close=open). VSA does not care that it is a doji, yet the conclusion that something is changing in the supply/demand dynamic is the same-Buyers came in on this bar. Still not the bar to get into the market on. The next key bar is a WRB. WRBs also tell us of shifts or changes in supply and demand. Then we get a No Demand bar. Again not a bar to enter on. What we need to see is something happen within the RANGE of the WRB AND OR THE RANGE OF THE SHADOW OF THE LONG SHADOW BAR. Ideally, the market will move back down and give us a No Supply or Test within these ranges. Then we should be looking to go long. And that concept is what Todd does not say much about. Clearly, he would not talk about within the context of the WRB because he does not look at the open, but he can talk about the overall range of the Ultra Wide Spread bar. In other words, even though he would not know it is a Long Shadow, he would recognize the bar as Ultra Wide Spread and thus should be used as a matrix to measure what comes. The next chart is the AFTER. We do indeed get the No Supply sign in the range of the WRB and the Long Shadow candle. Once we have the confirmation bar up, the next bar, we get long at the close of that bar/open of the next bar. Note that there are two gaps and gaps are usually filled so we need to keep that in mind. Posted by Sledge here. After the up move in price what happens next? There is on thing we want to keep in mind; we had a couple of Gaps on the way up. Gaps are usually filled. They can at times, however, act as support and resistance areas...... Let's look at the what happens when a test fails. The first thing you will notice is a WRB. Not important to VSA but oh so telling to the rest of us. The best places to see tests, upthrusts, and no supply/no demand bars are within the body of a WRB or shadow of a Long Shadow candle. We have our WRB in place. This creates a natural support/resistance zone. Next we see a narrow bar that closes near its high, closes equal to the previous bar, and has Ultra High volume. THIS IS A HIGH VOLUME TEST. Smart money is looking for sellers and is finding some. While it is true that sometimes the market goes up on high test, it usually does not go up far and then comes back down to re-test the area. As always the next 1 or 2 bars need to be considered. To actually confirm the test we need to see one of the next 2 bars close Higher than the close of the test. Otherwise, we have a failed test. Notice what happens here. The next bar is down and then the bar after that is an up bar but closes equal to the close of the test bar. Now, look at the next bar. We have an up bar that closes in the middle to slightly up on relatively high volume. It is not as high as the test, but it is still high. Up close (from previous bar), on high volume closing near the middle: This is supply entering the market. At this point, we have a FAILED test on high volume and more supply showing up. The very next bar closes on the high with volume less than the previous two bars and closes higher than the previous bar. This is no buying pressure. As it would happen, the high of this bar is equal to the close of the WRB. TG WONT TELL YOU THIS. Then we get the next bar down. From a VSA point of view, now is the time to go short. * the test of supply has failed. * New supply entered. * No buying pressure. couple that with the fact that there are gaps below and all this is happening at the low of the S/R zone of a WRB. Now let's take a look at a test that does not fail. I would first point out that from a time of day perspective, this is not an ideal time to be entering a trade. It all starts with a WRB. We have an Ultra Wide Spread bar on Ultra High Volume that closes on the low. But the next bar is up. If this bar is up then there must of been some buying in the previous Ultra Wide Spread bar. WRB analysis tells us that changes and shifts in supply/demand occur in WRBs. More reasons to think something is indeed going on. 3 candles later, we see a narrow range candle that closes on its high, makes a lower low and has volume less than the previous two bars. THIS IS A TEST. Technically a possible test, as we do not have a confirmation bar yet. Confirmation comes 2 bars later when we see an up bar that closes higher than the close of the test bar. First possible entry point, with no regard to time of day. If you missed that point there is another. We get a bar that closes on its low, has a narrow range, has volume less than the previous two bars, with the next bar up. THIS IS NO SELLING PRESSURE/NO SUPPLY. What is nice about this bar is the volume. While the test volume was lower than the previous two bars, it was not as low as the volume on this bar. More evidence of the lack of sellers underneath. Also note that we are within the range of the WRB as on this bar. So we have a second chance entry which may in fact be the most ideal entry of all for some (leaving time of day out of the equation). Back to the test candle. Some may note a hammer line that appears to traverse into a bullish white hammer pattern. It does not. But if you had mistaken it as such, here too, time of day should have kept you out. Posted by Sledge here. One thing that I am very struck with is the overlap one finds in " things that are true" across various methods. Take for example the chart below. Notice that we have a valid High Close Doji pattern. This pattern appears within the body of the WRB and the following Ultra Wide Spread bar with Ultra High volume. Take a look at the test bar. VSA tells us that a test bar is when Professional Money "mark" prices down to see if there are is any supply (sellers). VSA, however, does not look at the open of the bar. But look at what we see if we do. First, we see that this bar is a doji. In candlestick terms this bar represents indecision. More over, the close on the top means price was rejected as it moved down. This is not unlike what VSA tells us. When we look at the entire bar, what must be the way the bar played out? The bar opened up, went down and the price came up to close right where it opened. Clearly, we can see that Professional Money "marked-down" the price only to take it back up again. In this case, we have a "perfect" example of the true intentions of the Smart Money. If the open had been lower on the bar, we would of course still have a test, but the picture would be different. For example, if the open was at the low of the bar, we would still have a test, but we would not get a sense of the "mark-down". Note that the other labeled test candle opens in the middle and closes on its high. We do see the action (mark down-price rejection) here as well. To be clear, tests come in various forms and the key is the volume and the close. But some tests are more reliable than others. Volume plays a role here but so does the open. Tests that are also dojis tend to be the optimal type of tests. To those that use candles, this makes sense. Hammers with long shadows also make ideal test bars. Two methods reaching like conclusions. It should be pointed out that a test bar needs confirmation. Ideally that confirmation comes on the next bar with a close higher than the close of the close of the test bar. If that confirmation bar closes higher than the high of the test bar and it (the test bar) is a doji, well, now we have something.............. Posted by speres here. Hello people, my first post here. Been practising VSA for quite a while now. I actually trade supp, res, this does help....... heres my take on yesterdays and current GBP/gpy action vsa only. A reversal B wide spread up with a bit of a top tail, high volume, weakness coming in. followed by another high vol wide spread up. Pros using this distribute. C hidden upthrust. You really don't want to be long now. D no demand. followed by down bar confirmation E price attempts a rally but is pushed down more downside to come probably. Posted by habi here. Let's have a look at a 5 min char and focus on the high volume bars. At point 1, we had a up bar with ultra high volume followed by a shooting star with even higher volume, a clear sign of weakness. I often observed, that prices goes above the first sign of weakness, but then gives you a good short entry. Contrary at point 2. We had a long down bar on ultra high volume, closing on its low, followed by an up bar with about the same volume and a long lower shadow. A trade below this bar with the additional gap support was a good long opportunity. Posted by Sledge here. Originally, I was going to post this pic in the WRB thread and make the following point. Not all WRBs are created equal. While there may be many factors in what constitutes a significant WRB, the three main are: * Size in relation to other WRBs * Amount of volume * If the WRB is the result of some news related event NihabaAshi is the true WRB expert and may be able to enlighten us as to some of the more reasons that determine a WRB's significant. As I know you are looking at VSA, don't let what I just said about WRBs confuse you. There are three factors that constitute significant bars in VSA as well: * Size in relation to other wide spread bars * Amount of volume * If the wide spread bar is the result of some news related event Now in the chart below we see numerous WRBs or wide to Ultra wide spread bars. However, they are all not equal. Let's just focus on the very first one on the left hand side of the chart. We see an Ultra Wide Spread bar with Ultra High Volume that closes up from the previous bar. VSA teaches us that markets do not like Ultra Wide Spread or Wide Spread bars on high or Ultra high volume. Because they could hide selling (supply) within them. Although some times they are indeed strength. Which by the way, much time is spent on in the bootcamp. Because many people after hearing weakness (supply) comes in on up bars automatically assume all up bars are weak. We know this bar had some selling (supply) once we see that the next bar is down. If all that volume was buying (demand) then the next bar could not be down. What we often see next, if the market is strong, is either a No Supply or Test for supply bar. Here we see a test. This is a low volume test. Note that volume is less than the previous two bars. Note that the test makes a lower low than the previous bar and closes on its high. It hard for me to separate some things, so I must point out that this test bar is in body of the WRB. But from a pure VSA point, note that the test is within the range of the Ultra Wide Spread bar. SIMPLY, A LOW VOLUME SIGNAL WITHIN THE RANGE OF A PRVIOUSLY HIGH VOLUME BAR. Many concepts in VSA are logical. Here we see some supply enter the market. The next thing we see is a test of supply. The Professional want to take prices up, but are making sure that the supply is out of the market. If there were sellers underneath, then there would be more volume. And if a large amount of supply had entered (more than the demand present) then price would go down on more volume. The key(s) here are that the 'test' comes immediately after we see supply enter the market showing us market strength. Or, simply put, location and background information. An aggressive trader might enter once the test is "proven" on the next bar that closes higher than the close of the test. Shown here. The reason for the question mark is that not everyone would enter at this point. Some use multiple timeframes, some use price action patterns, and some even use indicators ( ). To be sure, the market did indeed move up and a quick profit could have been made. In fact, one could still be long as of this pic and in profit using only one timeframe and that repeatable and reliable pattern. Once you witness Ultra Wide or Wide Spread bars on High or Ultra High Volume, you want to then start looking for bars with low volume. This is where you find no supply, no demand, and some test bars. Sometimes there will be high volume tests or Upthrusts on high volume. An Upthrust is kind of like a high volume test but showing weakness rather than strength. That is, a high volume test will close on or near its high and an Upthrust closes on or near its low. Ideally a high volume test will make a lower low while the Upthrust will make a higher high. There is a lot more here, but it is enough to say that every No Supply or No Selling Pressure sign in this pic is within the range of a significant Wide or Ultra Wide Spread bar. More precisely, within the body of a significant WRB. Posted by DbPhoenix here. Something similar happened today, Unicorn, again due to news. This time, however, you wouldn't have got much out of it unless you'd done your pre-market homework re support and resistance. Note that the selling climax does not exactly jump out at you. If you didn't have support drawn at 1765, you might not even notice it. But there or nearby is the place to enter, if you're going to enter at all. Posted by Sledge here. Ok, here is the same day, on a 4 hr chart- I see coming into the upthrust: 1. A Wide Spread Bar up on extremely high volume 2. Some ok follow-through on the next bar but with significantly lower volume 3. A down bar with even less volume 4. An up bar still on very low volume 5. The upthrust Maybe this chart will shed some more light possibly? [multipage=Wide Range Bars] Posted by habi here. VSA teaches, that some selling could be in wide spread bars with ultra high volume. As you say, it's important, where the WRB occur in the trend. So it would be interesting, what we have on the left sied of the first WRB. In addition, we should make a different between a WRB, which includes just the range between open and close and a wide spread bar, which is measured from low to high. A bar closing on its high as a single bar is not bearish, even if some hidden selling could be within them. But it means, that the sellers was not able, to push down prices. In your chart, the first WRB is a bullish candle as long as we don't have a close below it. In my opinion, the most important bars are those, with high volume. Then we have to find out, what this high volume means. In your example, we have a WRB on very high volume, closing on its high and higher than the three previous bars. Three bars after your long sign, we see a shooting star with high volume an a long upper shadow. This is a sign of weakness. Even if a second WRB is forming, we have weaknes above the shooting star. After the no demand bar, I see already a WRB down and a possible short against it. The next WRB down has ultra high volume, but closed not on the low which means, that some strenght came in. Since we are on the support from the first WRB, why not a long trade against the no supply bar? Posted by habi here. Some WRB's and how they worked as support/resistance in the ES 3 min chart. but it was not always easy to find a setup within the WRB zone. Today, strenght came in on down bars before closing the up gap. The higher volume spike in the middle lead to some more points down in an uptrend. The last two very high bars where probably created by closing day trade positions. We have to be careful, because we have some weakness in the 15 min chart. Posted by speres here. Great example here yesterday of WRB pushing through resistance gbp/jpy. Posted by DbPhoenix here. If you consider the waves of buying and selling pressure within the bar interval you've chosen rather than focus on the bars themselves, you'll see that a wave that attempts to make a higher high is of greater importance to buyers and sellers than one which is tucked inside a previous bar. Plus it's more likely that the second ND situation in your chart will be noticed by more traders since the intermediating bars may not be visible with a longer bar interval but the swing points will. What is more important in all of this is the lower high at R (assuming that the R is legitimate). As for volume and WRBs, the two need have nothing to do with each other, i.e., one can have a WRB resulting from a lot of buying pressure and very little selling pressure, or vice-versa, which graphically would show as a WRB with "low volume". [multipage=VSA Quiz]Posted by Sledge here. Ok Pop-Quiz for the Pro's and Learning time for the noobs or anyone in between. Can anyone Define marked bars 1 through 7. All the info needed (Volume) is below. The Admins can grade the papers when all have finished! 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. Posted by heretodaygone... here. Shall we play a game? Here's a daily chart of citi ©, with what appears to be a successful test of the January lows, or not depending on timeframe and trading plan. A couple of questions : - Is this a lower volume test of supply? - Is this a long signal for you? - if this is a long signal for you, are you calling this a bottom or just looking for a swing? (correction, are you anticipating a bottom? ) - If price rises, does that automatically mean that demand is present or could it possibly be short covering? - How do you distingush between short covering and new initiative demand? -Will wait for a higher low to decide? - Looking for and upthrust and or a no demand bar to short? DbPhoenix answer posted here. More than a couple 1. It's only marginally lower, but it's possible. If it's under accumulation, there will likely be many of these. 2. No. 3. See 2. 4. Depends on whether or not the advance is sustained. If it isn't, it's more likely short-covering. 5. See 4. 6. To decide what? 7. If I were interested in trading this, I'd wait to see where the first rally takes it and whether or not that might offer potential R. The easy money has likely been made here. [multipage=VSA Insights] Posted by Tasuki here. I've been thinking about two of the major threads on Traders Lab---VSA and MP, and it occurs to me that they rely on contradictory principles. If you believe VSA, the market is manipulated by the "professionals", "specialists", the "big money." Several contributors to the VSA thread have even opined that, if you get right down to it, this manipulation means that the markets are not a true auction, because it s rigged. Some voices, such as Richard Ney, Joel Pozen and others, are more strident in their opinions than others, but the fundamental philosophy of VSA is that the big players drag the price up and down to suit their needs. This philosophy is diametrically opposed to the philosophy of Market Profile, whose principles rely on the notion of a fair, two-sided auctioning process. If that process is not fair, if the auction is rigged, then Market Profile strategies would not work. The whole notion of "value" would be a sham if it were rigged by professionals who would be manipulating value to suit their interests. Let's take a single example to illustrate the two differeing approaches to the market. In a recent video with Joel Pozen, he showed a downtrend with a slight retracement in the middle. In other words,the market went down, then rallied slightly, then went down again. Joel insisted that the slight uptrend was created, manufactured, by the specialists in order to fool the masses into going long, so that the specialists could take out even more people's stops and create another, deeper downtrend. Frankly, I found this conspiracy theory too damn far-fetched for my liking. so I was delighted when I read Dalton's explanation of the same phenomenon (Markets in Profile, p. 155). He simply said that the slight uptrend was caused by "weak sellers" who covered their positions after they had realized a small profit from the initial downtrend. Personally, I find this explanation far more satisfying, not to mention plausible. In short, the more I study Market Profile, and the mechanisms of the auction process, the less need I feel to explain market moves with conspiracy theories involving super-rich, super-intelligent professionals or specialists. Tom Willaims and Richard Ney and Joel Pozen notwithstanding, I doubt that the folks who manage millions or billions are any smarter than we are. True, there certainly are very rich market players, but Willams and company lump these folks all into one camp and call them "professionals". The fact of the matter is, they do NOT act as one block. The truth is, these guys hate each others guts and are just as much interested in cutting each others throats as they are in screwing the public. This notion that the professionals are taking the market up or down or sideways supposes that these folks all work together. Sure, within one brokerage or hedge fund, I'm sure their traders all work together, but the idea that Goldman and Merrill and Blackstone and whomever else are all working together to move the market is a fantasy conjured up by paranoid conspiracy theorists. The fact is, the auction process has far more logical explanations for the market's moves. Reply by DbPheonix posted here. You make good points, Tasuki, though whether or not one finds the two approaches to be incompatible depends on how much attention he pays to signal and how much to noise. Both VSA and MP have their roots in the same place, but the farther out one goes on the individual branches, the more differences one finds in jargon and schematics. But do any of those differences matter to one's trading? Is it even necessary to pay any attention to them? If one works his way back to the roots, he can employ both with no trouble at all. As far as the "smart money" business goes, I prefer to think of it as "big", since it rarely behaves in any fashion that I'd call "smart". And while price can make substantial moves with little or no professional involvement whatsoever, it just doesn't pay to stand in front of the stampede when that money does enter the market. Personally, I couldn't care less who's buying or selling. I'm only interested in what's going on with price. Makes life and the decision-making process much easier. Reply by CandleWhisperer posted here. Actually VSA states that the Big Boys (BBs) are not all working in concert. VSA also states that not all "smart money players" are in the know. Tom would say that some of those Mutual fund managers with their MACDs and moving average crosses are no better than the herd; a term which is usually associated with small retail traders. As far as the auction process goes, there may be some truth in what you say. While Todd Krueger uses market profile along with VSA, it does seem that there is a dichotomy between market manipulation and fair auction market theory. Yet the propensity of value area lines to act as support or resistance is evidence of sameness or at least a symbiotic relationship. Regardless, the truth lies in price action. Price does not lie. Posted by Mister Ed here. Hi Taz, nice hand grenade, thanks for chucking it in. I saw your post a few hours ago, and have been thinking about it since. Sad, I know, but true. I am going to go with the 'muddle through' option. Price movement is a result of manipulation, sometimes, AND price movement is a result of an auction process, sometimes. The two co-exist, sometimes one is dominant, sometimes another. I will let the fundamentalists (no, not balance sheet/NFP/interest rate type fundamentalists, I mean those who set themselves up in either the MP or the VSA camp) slug it out, I will muddle through. What does muddle through mean? Hmmm, this bit of MP seems to work quite well, I will use it. Hmmm, this bit of VSA seems to work quite well, I will use it. Is this price move, here, now, a result of manipulation? Or is this price move, here, now, a result of the auction process? Ask me later, after I have closed the trade. Right NOW I am occupied with looking at the test and the response. Let me elaborate ... Price moves up, breaks through resistance (maybe a double top). This is the test. Then the price stalls, stops going up, and the volume has dropped. This is the response. OK, so here we are. Why are we here, manipulation or auction? I don't care. What's more important to me is how we got here and then making a judgment on where we are going from here. Up or down? Do the assessment, make the judgment, buy or sell. Now manage the trade until it is closed. I use Wyckoff analysis. The way I use it is to use whatever tool or technique that can tell me about supply & demand, cause & effect, effort & result, and position. I use VSA techniques a lot. I am trying to use MP techniques more as well. Are the philosophies behind each contradictory? Maybe to the fundamentalists (picture white-bearded VSA adherents at the entrance to one cave and white-bearded MP adherents at the entrance to another, hurling invective at each other) they are, to me they can peacefully and profitably co-exist So, is the market manipulated or is it an auction? Yes. Posted by DbPheonix here. Unfortunately, static charts are not dynamic, yet these are the kinds of charts that practically everybody works with, especially when they're trying to explain something to somebody, whether in an article or a post or a book, so one is in the position of explaining the nature and character of movement using something that doesn't move. Hence the fallback position: patterns. Then the subsequent focus on and reliance on the pattern, forgetting about the dynamic that created the pattern in the first place, leading to an occasional and sometimes frequent misreading of the "pattern" (e.g., the "head and shoulders"). "No Demand", for example, is an important concept, but it has nothing to do with bars since bars don't exist in the continuous flow of transactions. "No Demand" is more accurately a "state of being" for the relationship between buyers and sellers at that time. It's a portion of that continuous flow that is led up to and fallen away from. On the other hand, "No Demand" as jargon has everything to do with bars, but for me is far less useful when it finds its way to that particular box. Posted by DbPhoenix here. This is a post I've saved. It may be off-topic, but I like it, so here it is. First I spent many months drawing trend lines on charts until I understood a little something about "trend stages" and then followed price along in real time trying to apply the accelerating /decelerating trend thing. But it wasn't enough. So then I went through the same charts and wrote down the length of price bars during 3 different parts of the trading day, to find out what an expansion bar, a wide range bar, and a wide bodied bar were, and what was a normal or average price bar .( I was ashamed to ask about these at the time because it seemed that everybody already knew but me.) But that was not enough. So then I set out on the road to find the mystery about S/R. I looked at both price highs/lows, and calculated pivot points to find out which level price reacted to more often. I did this with a combination of trend lines and wide bodied bars or the lack there of. After a few months of doing this every day, I got a pretty good idea what S/R was all about. In the beginning I also was studying an opening range breakout strategy, which first ignited the idea of contraction/expansion and how that affected the outcome of a BO. Then I started looking at individual price bars, and where price opened and closed in relation to the overall range of the bar. On and on and on... The point is that this is how I built up my base of understanding of P/V behaviour, by going over the same territory again and again and again with a new piece of the puzzle, and also carrying forward with each discovery. If there is an easier way of learning what is important, I don't know what it is. Posted by DbPheonix here. Depends entirely on your setup. Mine is based on support and resistance. I've very clearly defined what I want to see there. If I don't see it, I don't take the trade. If I do see it, I do take the trade. Without exception. There are hundreds of hammers, shooting stars, gravestones, dark cloud covers, no demand bars, upthrusts, shakeouts, etc, etc, etc in any given chart. It's up to the market student to determine which to pay attention to and which to ignore. I pay attention only to those which occur at support or resistance. So whether or not the ease in selling pressure at support and the shift to buying pressure would cause you to cover or not is beside the point unless that is part of your setup. Since it was and is part of mine, it's my reason to cover. And adding to my short is not an option since that's not part of my setup. What price does thereafter is of no importance to me unless I've entered a long trade. But I didn't. I was done. As to "temporary", the trader has no way of knowing whether the shift in balance is temporary or not. He has to act based on what's in front of him. As to whether a lack of "supply", or, more accurately, selling pressure (unless you're talking about something that actually has a supply, like stocks) equals demand, or buying pressure, it depends on what's happening with price. If selling pressure eases and buying pressure takes up the slack, but no more, price will sit right where it is. If selling pressure eases and buying pressure increases, there will be less resistance to a move up in price, which is what happens in the first bar I've arrowed, as well as the second. As to what happened afterward, price went pretty much nowhere, but, again, I didn't care. I entered where I was supposed to, rode it all the way down to support, and exited where I was supposed to. There were no further setups for me that day, though I'm sure there were plenty of setups for other people. And if all this seems oversimplified, I'd have to agree. That's exactly what you have to do in your setups and your trading: oversimplify. Make it as simple and straightforward as possible so that you know exactly what to look for and exactly what to do if and when you see it. No panic. No euphoria. You see it, you act. You don't see it, you play solitaire. If I may, the following is from the "journal" post to my blog: Therefore, focus on the setup. One setup. Determine its characteristics. Define it so specifically and so thoroughly that you can recognize it without any doubt whatsoever in real time. Decide provisionally where best to enter, what the target ought to be, where the stop should be placed, and so on. Only after the setup is defined and tested (and it can't, ipso facto, be tested until it's been defined) can one even begin to think about trading it with real money, much less trading multiple setups. Attempting to shortcut this process merely expands the amount of time it will take to develop the necessary skills. Nothing is gained by painting the house before scraping it, cleaning it, and priming it since you'll have to do it all over again sooner rather than later. You are free to create your own based on whatever jingles your bells. You may, for example, focus on divergence. Or higher swing lows and lower swing highs. Or candlesticks of one sort or another. Or trendline breaks. Or base breakouts. Doesn't really matter. What matters is that you keep four concepts in mind: demand/supply, support/resistance, price/volume, and trend. In this way, you can create your own setups which hundreds of thousands of other traders won't be watching along with you. You must understand, however, that what determines the success of the trade is the trader, not the setup. If you're looking for something that "works", you may as well save yourself a lot of time and stop right here. What will “work” – or won’t, as the case may be – will be you. Posted by DbPheonix here. A "volume bar" represents trading activity, both buying and selling. Trying to separate the two is pointless. If trading activity is "low" relative to the trading activity (or TrAc, if that's okay; I can't call it "TA") during other segments of the price/volume continuum (and it is a continuum), then there may be little interest on both sides, or there may be a great deal of interest on one side but not the other. You'll know which by how price behaves. If you've chosen to represent price by a bar, and there's a great deal of buying interest but not much selling interest, price will riese because there's "too much money pursuing too few goods". In other words, everybody's desperate for bananas, but there are only a few bananas available. So the price will skyrocket, but the number of transactions will be few. Therefore, if your price bar is extending itself as it reaches R and the volume bar is unremarkable, then you've got a lot of buying pressure (demand) which is driving price higher, but very little resistance (supply or selling pressure) to that demand, keeping "volume" or TrAc, low. Posted by Eiger here. The shortening distance from one low to the next is known as Shortening of the Thrust (SOT). It is a Wyckoff prinicpal. In today's case, as the market tried to go lower, buying came in. The buying kept the thrust (or the waves, swings, legs, etc) from going lower. It is a sign that the market is nearing a turning point. You can see it occur in both up moves and down moves. You can also see it occur in tighter clusters of waves and clusters of price bars like this morning at around 10:00 (see the 3-min chart I posted earlier today). SOT is a great tool. [multipage=Predict vs Anticipate] Posted by Blowfish here. The whole temporary business implies prediction. You can not predict (i.e. you can not know temporary before the event). These approaches/tools are great for seeing what is happening right now. I am guilty of wanting to predict now and then it is a 'psychological trading flaw' and a fundamental human trait imho. Trading need not be about predicting (imho again). Anticipate what might happen (e.g. Supply will enter at 'support'). Monitor what is actually happening now. Take appropriate action (enter long). If things change take appropriate fresh action. If what you anticipated is 'temporary' you can only know when things change. 'Appropriate' might be take half off and stop to BE, close, reverse etc. The trouble is recognizing unambiguously and consistently what is happening now. That only comes with lots of screen time. Posted by Eiger here. Boy, do I ever agree with this. I have to remind myself when trading not to try to predict the market. It really limits me. I consciously try to use "anticipate." When I see, for example, a sign of weakness, I then anticipate no demand. If that occurs, I then anticipate an upthrust. If that occurs, I can take the trade. Thinking this way helps me be more patient -- something I am always working on. I remember reading from Mike Douglas that in the markets, "anything can happen." Sometimes, it seems, that anything does happen. When I am predicting, I start to narrow my mind and filter out contradictory information. I am not open to what the market is telling me. The "anything can happen" seems to occur more frequently when I am predicting, because I'm not in tune with the market. I can't tell you how many times I have taken a short, the market goes down a bit, and then paints a low volume, narrow range bar with a decent close. Because I was predicting, I ignored this signal that the market was likely going to attempt a rally. When I am trading well and anticipating, I can "see" the market better and I am out of the short on the next open. This was such a problem for me for so long, I started keeping a journal just on this. I called it, "The Predictor Speaks," and recorded every time I did this. Slowly, I began to realize that predicting the market was feeding my ego. Every time I predicted and the market did as I predicted (mind you, I was never in those trades!) I felt self-satisfied. In reality, was fooling myself that I really "knew" the market and "understood" it. I came to learn that for me, prediction = ego, and getting my ego involved is a stupid way to trade. I found that predicting limits my trading. I don't see alternatives, I have more losses, and I miss opportunities. Thanks for that post: Anticipating is such a better mindset. Posted by Kiwi here. I have often argued that trading is always about predicting because we are making a statistically based prediction. For example, I am entering because their is a 68% chance that price will reach my target before retracing to my stop when this pattern occurs in this situation. I've found the "you do not predict" school to be frustrating because they mean one thing when they use the word predict and I mean another thing. Here you clearly identify prediction in an almost Buddhist sense. Buddhist's don't have a problem with wanting something ... their problem is with the attachment to that wanting. That's the source of the unsatisfactoriness/unhappiness. Similarly there isn't a problem with predicting that there is a 68% chance of X if Y ... but the problem is the attachment to a statistical prediction. So you use the word anticipate to describe a prediction without attachment to the outcome. So it seems that by saying "I anticipate" instead of "I predict" one can avoid the attachment, the ego issues, and the difficulty in then simply following your process and the market without distortion. Posted by Eiger here. Tom Williams explains this particularly well in his book, the Undeclared Secrets. He talks about many, many trapped traders who went long along the top of the trading range (or, the creek). Professionals who want to move prices higher know that there are thousands of traders trapped up there, looking to sell and get out even on their poor trades. The professionals don't want to be buying the contracts or stock the trapped longs want to unload -- they already have their line bought lower. Having to buy at higher prices isn't good business. So, what do they do? They will rapidly move price through the trading range and jump the creek (or, gap it higher). When trapped longs see this, they are more likely to just hold onto their position and ride the mark-up. It saves the professionals money. It's a useful explaination of breaking through the opposition of supply. [multipage=The Holy Grail] Posted by DbPhoenix here. Alex and I were just in Vegas speaking at a seminar for the Traders' Expo. The room was silent and tumbleweed went by as topics such as mental discipline, money management and psychology were discussed. The slides switched to the trading setups and instantly the whole crowd perked up like watching an accident happen in real time on the highway. They wanted to know "does this guru have the holy grail??" What they do not realize is the first "boring" part of the seminar is the holy grail. Posted by Bearbull here. Understand discipline, money management, psychology are the key factors to be a successful trader, however it is also imperative to generate confidence in what one is looking at on the charts, no point being told over and over again, smart money is at work, how does one learn to read the footprints, how one can find an edge etc, then there will be incentive to acquire discipline leading to consistent execution of a particular strategy/setup. Most folks who will be at the symposium have probably heard of VSA or read Tom Williams book and realized that it is not a black box system, hence there is no question of seeking a holy grail here. We can debate this forever, it is a chicken and egg scenario. Posted by Eiger here. Yup, the Holy Grail is you. Posted by Eiger here. I miss a lot of trade opportunities, and once in a trade, tend to leave money on the table with every trade. These are two things I constantly work on. This was what I meant by my quip above that "The Holy Grail is you." It really is, and so you work on areas that are what I call current limitations -- those things that if you could improve on (like exits), would make you a better trader. That is really what trading psychology is all about. This morning, for example, I totally missed the first run up in the ES on the 5-minute chart, even though a long trade was readable from the chart. After it fell back to Friday's low (1325.25) there was buying evident on the chart (1, 2, &3). You can also see that all the closes in this area were holding at that level (a clustering of closes), and there was shortening of the thrust. That was enough of a story to think about a long trade, and so I waited for confirmation. This came at 4 with no supply and I entered. The next bar was a bottom reversal, so I was good in this trade. The very next bar, however, closed below the middle. I exited the trade right after that bar (blue arrow). Of course, it went higher. I am always drawing support & resistance lines, and when the ES came back to support at 5 with no supply and had a key reversal at 6, I went long again (also, the 3-min chart showed an orderly reaction on narrow spread/light volume). The market popped up and I took the trade off (blue arrow). I thought that the market gave me a nice gift, but of course it went higher. I did buy the second reaction (7), but scratchted it because it didn't rally quick enough. I was thinking it was after 12:00, and it might go nowhere. Again, it went higher. At 8, the market came into the old top at A. There was a lot of activity in this area Friday afternoon, so its worth paying attention to. On the run up from 7, volume increased with wide spread and good close, but look at 8. The close is lower than both the old top at A and the previous bar. It has this result on an increase in volume from the previous bar. That is supply. The next bar, 9, is another upthrust and volume remains realitively high. There was also a shortening of the thrusts and five waves to the swing (an Elliott concept). This was enough of a story to take a short. I almost closed the trade on the next bar becasue of the mid-range close. Instead, I brought my stop to break even and held on, thinking I'll probably get stopped out. I closed it at the blue arrow where support came in earlier. But, again, I left money on the table. When looking at a strategy, I try to put principles together. The principles never change, but the "look" of the chart always varies. Principles include support/resistance, climactic action, tests, shortening of the thrust, etc. In classic Wyckoff, there is a sequence of events that often happen, and it is good to be aware of those. Then I try to read the market as I manage the trade. But, as you said and as you can see, entries are easier than trade management. [multipage=Trade Samples] Posted by zeon here. First arrow: I opened a short before the market opened because price was hovering around ressitance and I didn't want to wait any longer. A signal is a signal, right? That one got stopped out because the news caused price to spike up. Ok next arrow: I shorted on the first spike at resistance. I've found there's often a reversal after news, so I considered this a good signal. I could not really see a reason to exit so I moved my stop up to below the pink line after price plunged and walked away. When I came back I saw my stop hit Third arrow is another short on what looks like a head & shoulder formation. I figured this to be a pretty good opportunity to take on another short and went along, only to get stopped out with a small loss about 30 minutes later (price spike up to the pink line). The final short is one I took on the way down. I figured this time price really had to plunge hard. I moved my stop to breakeven on the next bar, I really wanted to lock in those profits this time instead of letting them fly. But 15 minutes later a spike stopped me out. So this is the story of my day... pretty decent entries in hindsight I think. But managing the trade isn't particularly easy. Continued by zeon here. Thanks, great entries may be the case but despite that no winning trades today . Perhaps exits are more important than entries. Most of my trades actually go in the right direction rather soon after the entry. I use 1 and 5-minute charts, I like to zoom in to pick an entry, I usually take the trade on a market order. I look at volume usually on a higher timeframe though, because it seems to peak all over the place as you can see on the chart. If you zoom out a bit, it's easier to identify "special" volume peaks. I'm still learning to identify the right ones though! What I was looking for in these trades... basically I wanted to ride price down all the way to around 1325. That was a first target because I had support drawn somewhere around there. Perhaps I'm being thick, but I thought prices can plunge sharply in a bear market, but so far it seems like we've seen little of that Posted by Eiger here. I do like the idea of getting out by lunch-time. It is interesting in how we view the charts differently. I saw the action just before 10:00 set up as a spring. Had it happened at any other time during the session, I would have taken it. It is a choice trade. But given that it set up just before news, I passed. I don't really like to trade on news releases, though sometimes like this morning, they can catapult the market. This spring on the ES was actually a pretty nice set up, though psychologically difficult to trade because of the surge of volume after the open. The market had been bid up to put in a higher high and higher low in the overnight. After the open, the market sank. Bar "a" was widespread down with a good amount of volume closing on the lows. VSA teaches that there would be lots of buying on that bar, but it also looked as if it might break the support line. The next bar, "b", showed strong buying coming in. Price dipped just below support and closed above the previous close on nearly the same volume. Now we have a potentially nice spring set up. All we need is confirmation. At bar "c", the market tests the spring on volume less than the previous two bars and holding a higher low with a strong close. That is a near perfect set up. I can see on the NQ where you would short at A. On NQ, price was stopped at resistance. On ES, price made a new high, making it harder to short. The only clue available on the ES in that area was a no demand bar (second bar after the top at A). For me, that wasn't enough of a story to make a trade. DbPhoenix follow up here. VSA is correct, as far as that goes. There's buying and selling in every bar (which a great many people who use color-coded bars miss). If there's lots of trading activity, as represented by the bar, there will lots of buying, but also a lot of selling. What matters is the effect, i.e., the appearance of the bar. This, to me, is one of the more important points that Wyckoff -- and consequently, VSA -- makes. Someone who focuses on a list of "principles", however, and doesn't go beyond that will look at the close at the lows and think "weakness". Someone else, though, may include the enormous effort that buyers are making, which results in the level of the activity. The results of this effort are shown in the next "bar" (though in a smaller TF, one sees a dip and recovery, like a plane flying into and out of a canyon). Again, the strong buying came in during the previous bar. But its effect was not entirely realized until bar b. As to bar c, you're correct about the confirmation. It's just too bad that the whole thing took place backed up against a market-moving announcement. Incidentally, your remark above -- "it also looked as if it might break the support line" -- is an example of what I call The Dog That Didn't Bark. The fact that it did not break the line is more important than it might otherwise seem, and if one is fuzzy on how to interpret the relationship between price and volume, he can think about what "ought to" have happened, but didn't. Posted by Eiger here. There was more buying than selling off the open. There was also nothing much except a price bar or two. One thing to think about is to try to put more things together before making a trade -- easier said than done. A little higher up on the 5-min ES chart (it's the same for SPY), price came up to a level where supply had entered three times earlier in the overnight session. The bars marked A were selling. We know this because they are up bars on high volume closing back in the middle. B was a no demand bar, but we have a light volume bar at C, so the market is saying that it isn't ready to move south. At D, another No Demand, and E is the Up thrust and signal to go short. Also, look at E on the 3-min chart. First, there is shortening of the thrust - meaning that the tops are not making much progress, despite decent volume. This is a sign of supply. Then look carefully at E. A narrow range down bar on an increase in volume. Two things to note about this bar that say supply: 1) the narrow range at the top of the rally on high volume says they were capping the market. 2) this is a down bar with more volume than any other bar since the start of the rally. This indicates a change in behavior and strongly suggests lower prices. This was the trigger for an entry. So, you had several things occurring here that made a short a good probability trade: resistance area, selling occurring on the up bars, no demand bars, shortening of the thrust, capping the market, change in behavior, up thrust. Try to put combinations like these together, rather than just a bar or two. These combos come up nearly every day, often several times during the day. The psychological keys to this are patience and concentration. Posted by Eiger here. You have some of it right, but there are other things going on in the chart. I made up a chart of SPY so you can see what I refer to. In classic Wyckoff, markets don't turn on a dime. They need to first stop the down move, then build cause (i.e., allow for a period of accumulation). There is a sequence that markets often follow that Wyckoff identified. We saw it today. After a down move has been under way for a while, you will get a rally that will typically (not always) last longer and be larger than any previous rally in the down trend. This is called Preliminary Support and signals that we are getting close to the end of the down trend. If you are familiar with Elliot, think of it as the 4th wave. Where you had the Selling Climax, was actually Preliminary Support. There was climactic action, but not really the SC. There was a secondary test (ST), but note that that ST still had a lot of volume. Then, on the rally up you had a series of up thrusts at 1 and No Demand bars at 2. See how the volume was receding on the rally? You don't want that if you are looking for or in a long position. It means there is no momentum (professional buying) behind the rally. Thus, the market is weak. Contrast this with 3 on the chart. At 3, the bars were closing on thier highs and volume was increasing with the rally. Professional support was behind the move. That first rally had nothing behind it and a minor Buying Climax (bc) occurred at resistance and the market fell back. The Selling Climax came later with the heaviest volume on the chart. Two other tests occurred, and accumulation had apparaently been completed as the market then rallied vigorously. Posted by Eiger here. For fun, here is the full SMI/Wyckoff analysis of today: Creek - The area where supply had come in at the top of the accumulation area. There is often (as there was today) a minor and a major creek. JAC - Jump Across the Creek - A Sign of Strength as the market breaks through the oppositional supply. LPS - Last Point of Support. A testing area that the market makes, usually in the same area as Preliminary Support. BUEC - Back Up to the Edge of the Creek - Typically after the jump, the market comes back to test the jump area. If successful, higher prices can be expected. However, the market can also fall back into the creek (i.e., head south and resume accumulation or fall into a downtrend). The Creek story was developed by Bob Evans, a successor of Wyckoff, to explain how the market breaks out of an accumulation area. It was about a boy scout looking for a narrow enough place to get across. It is a helpful metaphor to understand certain market action, nothing more. Please note this is a 5-minute chart. Just because the market jumped out of accumulation doesn't mean were are going to retest last year's highs! Posted by DbPhoenix here. This is a big chart, but you have to see what you're doing. There's nothing remarkable about the volume until August. But the "rally" in July has that tell-tale oval PV relationship. Not a good sign. When price falls shortly thereafter, you have what looks like preliminary support coming in at the first three arrows, culminating in what appears to be a selling climax in mid-August. All this is fine so far, but look at what happens to volume. High volume is not always necessary. In fact, it can be a warning sign. But when you make that higher high, you've got that oval again, and the only remarkable volume here is on a bar that brings price well below the high (which you'd see even without bars). After that, volume picks up, but it accompanies a generally downside bias. When a rally attempt is made, it can't hold above the supply line for more than a day, and there's that oval again. On the highest volume here, price is effectively neutral. Then there are the Transports, which don't even begin to confirm all these rally attempts. It's not just a matter of this bar or that bar. It's also a matter of "waves". Each rally "wave" -- i.e., the whole thing, not just the individual component bars -- shows weakness where one would expect to see strength. None of this may be a signal to you to head for the exits, but it's a signal that you should at least find out where they are. Posted by Eiger here. The attached chart is the small distribution area and turn at the end of February highlighting the confirmation/non-confirmation between the SPY and QQQQ on the 10-minute time frame. At A, both made a new intraday high. SPY made a new high at B, but the Cubes did not confirm, and the early afternoon saw a small sell off in both markets. Interestingly, SPY then became weaker at C. The next day it continued to show relative weakness and gapped lower, made a lower low, and then a lower high at D. QQQQ tried to go higher at D, but there was no confirmation in the larger cap index. This occurred again later (not shown on this chart) and the markets sold off for 3 or 4 days. [multipage=Entries and Exits] Posted by DbPhoenix here. This point should not be overlooked, so I'll emphasize it. Traders commonly feel that they ought to be taking every entry and milking every move for all that it's worth, and that they're still not getting it if they leave any money "on the table" (which leads them to leave the trade alone next time which, of course, is the time when the trade makes a U-turn and they end up with nothing). If you want to make serious money at this, nail your entry and nail your exit, then increase your size. You needn't be trading in and out and in and out and in and out all day long. You can do very nicely -- in fact, better than most -- by getting in at the best time, putting on greater size, getting out at the best time, then saying the hell with it and taking the rest of the day off. Don't concern yourself with all those other possible -- and usually hindsight -- trades. Define your setup, wait for it, play it well, and be satisfied. [multipage=Market Stages] Posted by DbPhoenix here. There are four stages: accumulation, mark-up, distribution, mark-down. The mark-up phase begins when the accumuation phase is finished, though one could argue that it's the last act of accumulation. Distribution begins soon thereafter, while demand is still high for the shares (or whatever). It does not begin at the top. The top is the fumes. The mark-down phase begins after distribution, but some of it can also occur during the end stages of distribution. These are not discrete stages, starts here on this day and ends on that one. What is most important is not to label everything but to detect the exhaustion, and this was abundantly clear in September. Look, for example, at the transports. Now some people apply these terms to brief buying and selling forays that to me have little to do with accumulation and distribution, but I've stopped arguing about it. As long as people know how to detect imbalances in buying and selling pressure and the signs of buying and selling exhaustion, that's good enough. Posted by rsi here. I think we have to distinguish between low volume tests that are happening after capitulation and low volume tests without having capitulation in the background. Capitulation implies that sellers are done. So a low volume test points that there are no more sellers. If there is no capitulation in the background, the whole volume spike and low volume test (I mean the entire move taken as a whole) can be interpreted as redistribution. A failed test with this setup confirms it as a redistribution. The key point is capitulation in the background. Posted by DbPhoenix here. Traditionally, capitulation is defined as the final vomiting, when perma-bulls finally throw in the towel. However, as a concept, one can also use it many times a day for every instance in which bulls allow bears to take the lead and sell with little or no resistance from the bulls, until that point where the bears are done. Which is one reason why I find the term "capitulation" to be of less practical value to me than the process outlined -- and also detailed -- by Wyckoff. Therefore, I suggest that one look at the context, which is what you suggested at the outset, and follow the before, during, and after in order to know what to do next. A capitulation is too often looked at as an event. But bottoming is not an event. It's a process. [multipage=Real-time Exercise] Posted by Eiger here. I know what you mean. One thing I found helpful which I do is to do a quick annotation of each bar on a separate sheet of paper I have set up just for this. I write down stuff like this for each bar: Volume - high/low/ave Bar - up/down/level Spread - wide/narrow/ave Close - highs/lows/middle Significance/meaning - see below In significance or meaning, I jot things like higher high/higher low, no demand, test, up thrust, whatever seems meaningful at the moment etc. I do this for a couple of reasons. First, it really improves concentration. Our minds naturally wander and we start thinking about all kinds of extraneous stuff during the day, so this brings you back to the market and makes you focus (I am a psychologist, too, so I think about these things!). Second, it's a good way to see where you are missing things. If I miss a move, I go back to the log and see how I was reading the market at that time. It is a good learning tool in that way. I basically made a blank table in MS Word and fill it in for the 5 min chart during the day. [multipage=VSA Videos] TL! Videos TL! Videos TL! Videos TL! Videos TL! Videos [multipage=VSA Resources] VSA Video by Soultrader - View here Copy of Richard Ney Report - Download Here More on Richard Ney - Download here Joel Pozen Presentation for in 2004 - Download here

Let's compare two cause-effect methods of analysis which help us to make our FOREX trading strategy more profitable: Volume Spread Analysis (abbr. VSA) seeks to establish the cause of price movements, and from the cause, predict the future direction of prices. The ‘cause’ is quite simply the imbalance between supply and demand in the market, which is created by the activity of separate professional operators called "Smart Money". Locked-in Range Analysis (abbr. LRA) seeks to determine the direction of the prevailing volume of open positions which will allow to join the further profitable price changes for all united market makers called "centralized automated market-making system". For example, both methods use the chart and volume to analyze, but have different basis: VSA: Activity of separate professional operators (Smart Money) LRA: Logic of price changes in the futures markets (where a liquidity is provided by Market Makers)

This is a thread just for pure VSA. To start: Today's 3-minute ES: Background - Price rallied after the open, then spent an hour reacting in a slow drift down. Volume was less on the reaction than the volume on the rally off the AM lows. Spreads were also generally narrower on the reaction, and as the reaction progressed, volume receded. A Higher Low (HL) was put in. After an earlier, failed attempt to break above resistance at 1, price held its gains at 2 on light volume (no supply) and also held the Demand Line YY of an uptrend channel. All of this is bullish. Note the emphasis placed on the background. We always start with the background. ----- A - Price pushes through the resistance area (red line) on high volume. B - Next bar has sustained volume, but the spread is narrowed and the close is in the middle. C - This bar is up, but the volume has dropped off precipitiously. This tells us in advance that the Supply Line, ZZ, is unlikely to be broken. D - Supply enters where expected. D is a down bar, closing on its lows on heavy volume. E - An up bar, closing on its highs after dipping below D indicates another rally will be attempted. However, the narrow spread and low volume indicate that professional money has withdrawn, so the rally is unlikely to go very far. F - Volume increases and the spread widens a bit (increased activity), but the result is a close on the lows. This Hidden UpThrust indicates supply. ----- More Background - Support and resistance are important to VSA. Look at the current chart in relation to the 15-minute chart (attached). We are currently just above yesterday's close and, more importantly, in the 825 area which offered support yesterday moring and early afternoon, but which is now likely to offer resistance. Thus, the background conditions from yesterday are joining with the immediate supply conditions seen on the 3-minute chart for a nice short set-up. ----- G - the market reacts to the previous low at E and rallies, but does so on a narrow spread and low volume - No Demand. H - A Hidden UpThrust that closes below the close of G on an increase in volume. The market now starts to fall. Good locations to initate shorts were at F, G & H I - As the market falls, volume increases. This bar was a down bar on average spread closing on the lows. The increas in volume and poor close tells in advance that the support levels from the trend line at YY and the horizontal support line (red line) are unlikely to hold. J - Tells basically the same story - supply is in control (down bar, increased volume, above average spread, and close on lows). K - The bar after J is narrow spread, close in the middle and high volume. Next bar is up. Some buying came in here, but K swamped whatever buying existed with a widerer spread down bar, close below the previous two lows on an increase in volume. L - The swelling volume that came in between J and K knocked the market sideways. Note the spreads and the volume. Spreads are narrow, volume is low and receding as the market attempts to rally. The two bars immediately before L are No Demand. L is a Hidden UpThrust on an increase in volume which caught stops and then closed on its lows. Another good location to initiate a short. The last bar on the chart is wide spread down bar with an increase in volume, closing on its lows. Supply is in full control. This is just pure VSA. Not too shabby is it? Always look first to the background, then follow the bars as they tell the story of the unfolding market. Trying to read the market by looking at a bar or two won't work. It will only hurt you. As you can see, adding other things extraneous to VSA is unnecessary and likely to be confusing. Hope this is helpful, Eiger

There are many myths floating around about VSA. These can be quite confusing to traders interested in learning the technical craft of VSA. If adopted as truth, they can also be quite damaging to traders trading with VSA. Most of these myths center around arguements that, if we look a bit more carefully, are based either on misunderstandings of VSA or attempts to lead the unwary. You can be the judge of that Myth #1: VSA is Frought with Unnecessary Jargon I have to admit that I chuckle a bit at this one. VSA is based on the Wyckoff Method. The Wyckoff Method dates back into the early 1930s and is based on reading the market by its own actions. Wyckoff was a very early proponent of reading the charts and developed a set of definitional terms he used to describe what he saw in the charts. Here is a (partial) list of terms from Wyckoff's original manual (in no particular order): Absorption Distribution Secondary Distribution Accummulation Buying Climax Selling Climax Technical Rally Technical Rebound Secondary Reaction Secondary Test Critical Position Danger Zone & Danger Points Upthrust Hypodermics Shortening of the Thrust Corrective Reaction Apex Hinge Springboard Shake Out Termial Shake Out Quite a list. VSA, being based on Wyckoff, uses some (though not all) of these terms. Terms used in VSA that come from Wyckoff include Buying and Selling Climaxes, Upthrust, Accummulation, Distribution, Test, Shake Out, etc. VSA streamlines Wyckoff to a certain degree, and such does not use as many of the terms that Wyckoff used. For example, Hypodermics is not found in the Williams text, nor is Secondary Distribution or Shortening of the Thurst. VSA does add a few terms, however. No Demand is one new term. Stopping Volume is another. In truth, these are pretty straightforward terms when you think about it. No Demand simply means what is says - there is no buying or no demand. The same with Stopping Volume. It refers to volume that stops a trend. Not particularly arcane. All professions have a technical language. Law, medicine, psychology, finance, marketing, carpentry, sport -- all have their own set of terms unqiue and specific to the discipline. The profession of trading is no different. Although a technical language may seem exclusionary to an outsider, this is not the intention nor the objective of technical language. Technical language merely serves to facilitate communication between people within the profession. When one VSA trader says, "No Demand," for example, every VSA trader understands what is meant. Communication is made easier and so is learning. I have seen many traders attempt to skirt the technical language only to 'see' and trade random patterns, thinking they were VSA. 'Seeing' selling come in, for example, because volume increases and a bar closes in the middle, they then take a short only to see the market turn on them and continue to advance. Loose descriptions of buying and selling/demand and supply seem on the surface to be more practical than the technical language. But, as every profession knows, loose terminology is neither useful nor practical. Traders avoiding the effort to learn the technical terms and their associated chart patterns quickly become frustrated and abandon VSA, many with a sour taste in their mouth. Does VSA have a technical language? You bet, just like every other profession on this planet. And, as in every other profession, the VSA technical language facilitates both communication and learning. Don't get swayed by the myth that VSA is all jargon. It is not jargon. There is a purpose for the terms used. That purpose is to help you properly learn VSA and talk clearly about it. Hope this is helpful. Eiger

Dear friends, Tom Williams passed away Monday night 7th Nov 2016 at home in Worthing, he was with Dallas his long time companion, and Gavin Holmes. He was like a father to me and I will miss him more than words can express. His funeral will be next week. Rest in peace. Sebastian

Hey folks! Happy new year! Have a few quick technical questions .. 1. In the VSA analysis, when the literature talks about UP bar or a DOWN bar, what does that actually signify: a. The open price > prev close? b. the open price > close on the same day? 2. When the literature says, narrow spread, what does that refer to: a. distance between Open and Close b. distance between High and Low 3. I understand that when we talk about high volume it is very relative. But I assume there is probably a standard volume moving average above which the volume is termed as high volume. Any suggestions on what volume moving average to use and what percent violation over the moving average would you consider to call it High Volume. 4. When you say narrow spread, is it narrow with respect to the whole range (High - Low) of the bar OR is that just a relative to other bars? Though I understood the vsa concepts generally, the above questions seem to plague me with few doubts. Thanks for your coaching .. PI

Hello folks, I want to start a free chat room for serious traders using Volume Spread Analysis and Wyckoff methods on their day-to-day basis. Im usually online from the middle of London session to the end of NY session (somedays I may be online for the open of the Tokyo session). Details: 1.- No head trader: Nobody giving signals or anything, no guru, just serious traders sharing charts, analysis and talking about Smart Money manipulation. ie: Chat user1: Hey guys seems like GJ its being accumulated after that selling climax Chat user2: Yes, I will be buying any no-supply bar anytime soon 2.- Free of charge: Kinda like the forexstreet chat in the forex socialnetwork but without all the newbies, scammers, signal vendors. I don't like the forexstreet chat personally because it gathers all type of traders with all types of strategies, experience, etc. Because of this, it usually gets a little messy (just my humble opinion, no offense). The idea would be something very similar to this but for VSA and Wyckoff traders only, trading spot forex and/or currency futures on a serious day to day basis. 3.- Non-educational: The motivation of the chat room would not be for educational purposes but I´m a believer that everyday is a learning opportunity and I am always open to learn something from everybody. So, obviously we all will be learning together from each other, but this would not be the main reason of the room. 4.- Real purposes of the chat room: Meet fellow traders using the same methods (Wyckoff and VSA) to make money in the markets, manipulation talk, sharing analysis, basically all the purposes of a trading community but with a filter for Wyckoff method's believers and VSA traders. Important: The chat would be using a private instant messenger like Skype, Hangouts, etc. I don't want to be the "owner", I want the chat open when Im not online so Im open for suggestions from all of you interested. If you use VSA and/or Wyckoff method to trade the currency futures or spot currency markets you are very welcome to join with ideas to make this happen. Please let me know by replying in this thread or via PM Warm regards from Mexico,

I'm going to write daily in this thread my journey using VSA to speculate in the currency markets. My purpose is to get better at this methods (VSA and Wyckoff) and write daily my own interpretation of the (smart money) large operator's moves in currencies. Background about me: Been trading for 5 years (next April), I was trading for the first 4 years using classic technical analysis and supply and demand zones until I discovered the beautiful Wyckoff method and then the vsa method. So basically I am just 8 months using VSA in spot forex. Things I'm looking for in the charts: I am usually looking for the Yao Ming bars, basically I look for climatic action followed by a spring (or upthrust) and then the classic no supply bar (or no demand). I use 1H, 15min and 5 min charts. Everybody is welcome to chime in, just remember that the charts I will be posting are not sell/buy signals, they are just my interpretation of the current story line within the market. Let's begin

At the suggestion of one of the contributors to the VSA threads, we thought it would be a good idea to have a thread for some basic info on VSA to help those just getting started in VSA. I'll start it with a couple of suggestions. Others should chime in as well. Just as important, newcomers are encouraged to post what they are finding helpful in learning and understanding VSA. ------------ Here are a couple of ideas to get started: 1. Read Tom Williams's Undeclared Secrets That Drive The Stock Market. This is the basic text and has a true wealth of information, both about how the markets work as well as how to read the charts. This is fundemental to understanding VSA. 2. Understand the background conditions of the market you are trading before putting on a trade. Although VSA is about reading the current bars on your charts, a fundemental error I see traders new to VSA commit time and again is to look at a few bars on the right edge of the chart and trade off that. You will definately lose money trading this way. VSA is more about understanding the background and using the individual bar indications to trigger entry/exit. Always look first to the background conditions that exist on your chart. If you don't understand what the background is telling you, just be patient and don't trade until you do see something that makes it clear. ------- This is a start. Again, others - including the new folks -- are encouraged to add to this. If the thread turns into a useful list helpful for the newcomer, I'll stick it to the top of the forum. Eiger

I have a request/question for help from the experienced VSA traders on this forum. I’ve been trading a particular pattern in the markets for sometime now known as a Pinbar. See the first attachment. I know this pattern has a high probability of turning the market. I know that strict VSA / Wyckoff methodology does not use the Open so this pattern would never appear in VSA, however having read Todd Kreuger and others on VSA they seem to advocate the use of the Open to enable a better read on market activety. I look for this pattern on the NYSE and NASDAQ on Daily charts. I’m hoping that the VSA method will help identify the set ups that have the best chance of success. I have read Mastering the Markets and I’ve also read a number of articles by Todd Kreuger and I’m in the process of working my way through the VSA Summaries on this thread. I’m not asking to be spoon fed VSA set ups, all I need is someone to push me in the right direction and also help me with my analysis. I think I can identify the current bar, however it’s the background that I’m having issues with. I’ve added a couple of my charts that I’m working at the moment. What I know so far is that a Pinbars in some ways resembles an Up Thrust, and in some cases looks like a possible Test. My problem at the moment is understanding the backgroud and how that fits into this set up. Notes on the attached charts. Chart attchment 2: I have written a basic alogorithum to identify potential setups this one pop up on the 10th Jan. Can that Pinbar be characterised as a Test of Demand? This patterns appear on high volume low volume, rising volume falling volume. Chart attachment 3: This appeared on the 5th Jan on high volume is this a selling climax? Chart attachment 4: This one failed and was taken for a stop loss. Was it because it was a failed test on low volume. Once I get the hang of this I’m more than happy to start a thread and share my analysis. Many thanks DK

Greetings all I was wondering if anyone has the ABC's of VSA tutorials by lauren snedecker that were on the tradeguider youtube channel but have been removed. Also looking for the theory of VSA. I am absolutely bleeding I only saw these half way through and never recorded them. An excellent resource and primer especially as it was free. cheers

im selling Tradeguider 4.1.16 RT + EOD + Manual and TradeGuider MT4 VSA Plugin(free offer) with $300 only. add me skype: ultimatexforex email: daumnaver@hotmail.com

Hello. I was recently introduced to VSA and I am confused as to the best source to get the necessary learning materials. I have come across both the VSA and TG websites and I am trying to undertsand: 1) Which book/e-book is best (MTM, Trading in the Shadow..., USTDTSM, TG's "Educational Trading Course, etc.)? 2) What is the concensus of opinion on TG's Software? For $99/mo. it seems one can lease the software and get the educational materials to learn the method. 3) I work a standard 9-5EST job and cannot trade intra-day. Is VSA effective using end-of-day data? Thank you very much for help.

First of all a big thank-you to those who have gone before, in these VSA threads. Your legacy is the enlightenment and education of traders who now no longer need to be fodder for those market participants we call "professionals". As a raw beginner (in VSA studies) I am already persuaded, and it remains for me to continue to apprise myself of all available knowledge, and bring myself to competitive and professional competence in the practice of VSA in trading. My chosen instrument is the Foreign Exchange market, traded through Retail Brokers littering the industry, relieving the unwary of their trading accounts before they even knew what happened. Just when I began to master the techniques developed for succeeding in making regular and profitable headway, along comes VSA into my life, and my approach has been turned on its head in one day. I am heavily into studying the sticky threads in this genre, and am almost saturated with information overload. But I can't put it down. A few things are emerging: 1) Reliable and accurate volume data is NOT readily available to clients of MT4 brokers 2) MT4 platforms do NOT provide useful (inbuilt) indicators that specifically deal with VSA analysis 3) The limited resources available to Retail Forex Traders come at a price - comparative value of which has not been established. In simple language, few brokers provide the tools and data to retail forex traders. And of those that do, it not clear whether there is true value in their offerings or not. This seems to be an area that remains undeveloped, when compared, for example, to the equities and other markets (S&P500, and futures, eMinis etc). There seems to be a couple of reasons for this: 1) Retail Spot Forex is a derived market, and each broker usually only has, or reveals, the volume that is traded through their dealership. 2) Popular platforms (specifically MT4) are unequipped to handle "plug-in" applications such as volume data from reliable feed sources, and even less equipped with the software required to turn this data into meaningful and tradeable signals 3) There is so far no competition, or at best, negligible competition within the Retail Forex industry that would be needed to drive change and increasing quality of VSA information While the general markets (for which accurate volume data is available) are well catered for, little is known about volume - true volume - within the Foreign Exchange markets - either Interbank or Retail brokers who only reflect price. Indeed, far more emphasis is being placed on reducing spread and commissions, than is being placed on bringing all the market data into the ring for all to see, use and benefit from. Can anyone provide information that will relieve me from my concerns in these areas: 1) Data suppliers that offer reasonably accurate Volume data (eSignal and IBFx have been mentioned) 2) Trading Platforms that are more or less dedicated to at least catering for Retail Forex trading as one of the instruments they offer 3) Software that can utilise retail Forex Data from a dependable volume sorce, once discovered. I understand the difficulties data suppliers face in this area - Interbank participants are not required to report volume data for three months - by which time it is far too old to be worth considering in current trading decisions, by any but the longest term traders. But there has to be some growth happening in this area. I suggest that the first broker to secure reasonable volume data would stand head-and-shoulders taller than the industry norm, where Forex trading is concerned at spot level. I would be keen to learn from any traders who are successfully able to apply VSA to the Retail Forex market. If this is not available to the retail trader, then can it be assumed that it is also unavailable to the 'professionals'? If indeed we are on a level playing field, where volume data is concerned, should we not learn how the 'professionals' are coping also? After all, if they are supplying the volume to the market that we buy and sell (as our counter-parties), how are they doing it?

Hello VSA Experts i'm new to VSA. i'm just curious that when price moving in sideway how VSA distinguish Accumulation and Distribution. attached image is a stock daily chart. as you see, after uptrend the stock moved in a sideway for past 3 months i thought it was accumulation process and i was totally wrong. is there any certain VSA evidence that can say it's in Distribution process ?

Experts please share which trading platform you use and the features you most like about and how it helps you with VSA.

I recently came across VSA and I am completely confused as to: 1) What is the best source of VSA info. (i.e. tradeguider, Volumespreadanalysis.com etc.)? 2) What books are best from the one's available (MTM, Trading in the Shadow etc.)? 3) Is the TG software a good tool? It seems to be available for a fee of about $99/mo. which comes with an "educational trading course". 4) I work a 9-5EST job and cannot trade intra-day. Is VSA (w/ or w/o the software effective using end-of-day data? Thank you for any help.

Hello, I am new to this forum, I have been through alot before I found Jesse Livermore and this forum, I am a forex trader, I am using Meta trader 4. 1.Can some one with VSA knowledge to comment if I can trade forex with VSA or VSA is only for stock? 2. If from your experience, VSA is good for forex, which platform should I use instead of MT4? 3. I was directed to this forum from: http://tradingmentor.net/index.html , the owner of this site says that this VSA forum covers more than enough for the entire VSA methodology, so as a beginner, how should I begin since there are tons of info kept in this forum? I appreciate for all your attention. I wish we will all succeed in the business of trading! Thanks tradebetter

Is there a way to show only the High Low and Close on a bar omitting the Opening price of the bar in a similar fashion to those used by VSA traders. Also if you then wanted to paint bars that had a 1st and 2nd Standard deviation wider range than average what tokens would you use for this if this is possible? Thanks

Hello I did post a similar question on Big Mike forum, but no answer yet. Using a regular chart with price and volume, it is possible to evaluate the health of a trend. In an up trend, the price will go up while the volume increased and will retaliate with a volume that is slowing down. A down trend will see is volume increasing while the price is going down and volume decreasing when price retaliate to an upper level. Using tick charts, how can I evaluate the health of the trend? The only thing that differentiate a volume bar to another one is the time that the bar took for the completion. Any idea or input appreciated Martin