Adrian

What code is this? It seems to bear no relationship to ELD code. Has anyone managed to get it converted to real ELD or Multicharts in a working format?

I'd rather be lucky than good any day of the week. That has to be one of the easiest choices in human history. And to disagree, means a person has incredibly poor insight and judgement. The lucky win lotto at 18. The skilled are still sitting at their desk at 50, trying to generate an income and accumulate enough savings to one day 'retire'. :doh: The lucky wins lotto again in their 30's. Yep, only a fool would wish to be skillful more than lucky. :rofl:

IS Poker and Trading the Same Thing? Actually no. One is a card game, the other involves financial markets. Hope that clears everything up for everyone. I did make the assumption you were talking about trading as in buying and selling financial on listed commodity, stock and futures exchanges. You may in fact have been talking about trading cards of some kind?

Do you have any thoughts on why it didn't work for you?

It is easy to show big trends in the PAST, where OB/OS indicators seemingly fail, but the reality is that it simply isn't true. The FACTS are that despite what you might hear from a firm that heavily markets trading courses at fairly high prices, and teaching incredibly basic stuff, the FACTS are that the two trends above can be perfectly defined by the use of OB/OS oscillators if one uses some lateral thinking. And one can quite easily get on board also via the same OB/OS indicators and ride the tend quite nicely. The big difference is that when, in the vast majority of cases, these big trends don't take place for most markets, the use of OB/OS oscillators will absolutely kill any traditional basic trend following approach. So the lesson is, don't always believe what you read, and especially so when coming from a person who also happens to sell trading courses. I don't market anything, but simply make comments based on 30 years experience. Is 30 > 20? Does it mean anything? Who knows. LOL

And then how would one define a formula that was similar but not identical? Just a complete can of worms. I am not aware of the ability to patent a mathematical formula either. Value charts are in the public domain anyway, and have been for years. It's never been used much because well, their isn't a lot of 'value' in 'value charts' LOL.

OP = Original Post C = Coach (hold your cursor over the icon to see)

@ZDO you have to smell it to work out it is simply a detrended price series? HUH? Every oscillator is a detrended price series. That's why they oscillate in a range and don't have trends.Hardly anything earth shattering there. @Swingtrader Agree. And that was the exact light with which I looked at the indicator. Just like any indicator it is of no use by itself. If one uses oscillators, they need to be used in a larger context. The most obvious being with a trend. But even when doing that I found the Value Charts had just way too many flaws. Studying this indicator will highlight some of the floors to using detrended type indicators. Sound great in theory, but in practice not so good.

Ignore those Value charts. They look good at first glance, but once you take a closer look, they fall over badly. I studied them years ago, and concluded they are largely a waste of time. Why? Because they don't represent the points where you want to enter or exit a market. They often represent momentum extremes, but trends do NOT end at momentum extremes. Virtually ANY oscillator will work in a perfectly formed sideways market. But unless you can RELIABLY tell when a market is in one and not in one (and due to complex cycle interaction you rarely can), then you end up wasting your time. Value charts will encourage you to behave like one of the earlier 'pro' posters LOL. You will end up trading against the trends all the time and lose a ton of money despite what he says professionals do...THEY DON'T. Beginner and even experienced traders should largely avoid reading this thread altogether as it is full of absolutely appalling information.

@Bluehorsehoe Can you tell me which issue of Bryant's you are referring to please, as I have them all saved.

@BlueHorseshoe A statistician will tell you, you need 30 trades to be statistically significant. When it comes to trading though, they haven't a clue what they are talking about. Some traders will tell you they wish to see hundreds or even thousands of trades to validate a model. They also do not know what they are talking about. I have absolutely no problems at all with the sample of 60 trades or so over the large time period. Why? Because when you understand markets and what is important, then you simply don't need a sample of hundreds of trades. Do you think Warren Buffet needs to see hundreds of sample trades to know that buying a business at a low price relative to its earning potential will work or not? Obviously not. Those with experience 'just know' because its obvious. When it comes to trading models, what's important is testing over different market environments, and understanding how and if the model is designed to deal with them adequately. Certainly you would have to be extremely patient, and be trading other models as well beside the RSI model, as the trades are few and far between, but that is irrelevant as to its validity or not. Now if a short term model was presented with 60 trades over the last month was presented, then I would laregly dismiss it until it was tested over a much larger database. Why? Because 1 month of intraday data is NOT indicative at all, of the type of market environments that lie ahead in coming years. The robustness of the variables is also of clear importance, but even there you need to be very careful. You can't simply test an RSI from 1 to 10 and see if the model keeps working. Markets are more complex than that. A 10 period RSI won't reach the same extremes a 2 period will. So you might try adjusting the oversold level with it, but even there it isn't that simple. A 2 period RSI will show situations that simply cannot occur with larger period RSI's. This is why creating a successful and robust model is far more difficult than most think. It requires a great understandsing of markets in the first place.

My question to you ValueTrader is, why are you reading a Thread under Automated Trading when you don't believe in it? Surely it would be a serious waste of your time, or are you simply out to prop up your own insecurities and ego by attacking others for their generous posts? I am fascinated to understand the mind of people who are insecure, as they are usually the ones we take the money from in the end.

My spelling ability is fine ValueTrader, but posts like yours simply aren't worth my time to bother checking. I only do that with people I respect. But I'm well versed with people who need to resort to abusing a posters spelling, as it is a textbook sign they know they havent a leg to sptand on, and are simply trying to deflect the discussion from their own baseless claims and accustations. Next thing you'll be making a reference to sleeping with my mother I presume LOL. That would truly be sad, as only the lowest scum on the planet take that line. You also seem to have a severe inferiority complex, as you like belittling people who provide GOOD information. So you are hardly the kind of person we wish to have on this forum. Quite sure at least 90% of readers will agree on that. Protective of the RSI?? LOL What on earth are you talking about? It is now even more clear you need to make yourself feel good by attacking others, because you obviously don't even bother reading people's posts properly, nor even understand what they are saying. I made no mention of the RSI, nor whether I had an affinitity with it. How bizarre. In fact, if it wasn't obvious to anyone with an IQ > 50, my first post had absolutely nothing to do with the actual content of the trading model at all. I didn't 'call' you arrogant, I simply stated a factual situation. Nothing more. Why on earth would I care where you were employed? I don't even care who you are. And I certainly have no interest in massaging your misaligned ego trip further. Finally, you seem to have an affinity with bedrooms. I am assuming you are talking about your own situation. Do you live out of a rented studio apartment? Certainly you do not know who I am, nor my living situation. Therefore, only a complete fool would even make such absurd guesses at my living situation LOL Truly hilarious. How embarassing for you, as clearly, by suggesting I am the one looking foolish, it is in fact you look about as dumb as anyone could possibly portray themselves. PLEASE do not post to the Traders Laboratory forum unless you can post something constructive.

BTW ValueTrader, you should show a little more respect to someone who has generously posted with full discloser a profitable trading system, something very very rare on any forum. Your arrogance shows you clearly have some serious issues and likely resent him for being profitable when you can't do the same. And please don't bother writing a come back with some snide remark to try and defend your situaion. It is truly black and white. You have your views and the world has another....its as simple as that.

@Value Trader. Clearly you missed the point of my post as well. How ironic, when yours was being sarcastic, as was plainly obvious by anyone with a brain. No wonder you think it is all BS. BTW..what is BS to some is fertilizer to others. Something you might wish to giive some thought to. So seriously, there is only one perosn who looks silly here, and it definitely ain't me.

@Valuetrader Would you mind posting the code please for your system that buys every low and sells every high on the 30 min chart? I know $100 doesn't mean much at all to you and you aren't realy a believer in system trading, so you won't mind at all sharing such insignificant code, but I'm sure many others would be fascinated to see it. You know once yo uhave posted it, I'm sure it will help built your reputation as an honest and reputable person. Regards, Adrian

@DOD Just out of curiosity, on what time frame are all these trades being taken? I'm just looking at FLs for example. Is that an end of day based signal? Why did you go short at 97.46? Beyond just saying there was divergence. Why put the stop only above the high of yesterday? Isn't that rather close? Why did you enter so far from the recent high when daily divergence occurred days before? What sized move are you trading for? A couple of days or trading for a new trend?

@wrbtrader I am fully aware of regular versus hidden divergence. Trading hidden divergence is TREND TRADING. So it isn't really divergence except in the minor sense, and certainly nothing wrong with taking those signals. I've really no idea what type of divergence DOD is taking. I only see endless lists of stock symbols which really mean nothing to me. I'm assuming it is regular divergence. If 'advanced' in this thread is referring to hidden divergence, then I have seen little discussion on it so far. If it is referring to trying to pick the ends of trends then it is standard divergence, and only a tiny % of people trying to use it succeed, and any money they make will be small. And even more so when compared with all the lost opportunity from missed trends they didn't trade due to trying to pick the turning point. The facts are that the money is made in the trend. That is 100% fact. Now what one person might think is just range trading , is in fact multiple trends to someone else. And if a new trend materialises after a divergence, then the trend trader will still have an excellent chance of getting on board anyway, and make much the same money as a divergence trader. Except the trend trader won't have all the false divergence losses from prior to the turn, but instead wil have multiple closed out profits from each of those prior trend moves. Its simple maths really. As I said previously, the beginner wants to put their ego on the line and try to pick turns. They think that is what trading is all about. They want to be able to brag to their friends they sold the high of a move. They won't tel you of course how many goes they had all the way up. Meanwhile, the professional is happy to just take out 30-60% of each trend move, and leave the turns to the mugs. I will say though, that virtually every trend ends in divergence, but you will need to look at many different time frames to find it. And even when you do find it, you will still need to be able to tell the difference beetween false divergence and real divergence. The former occur many times more often than the latter.

Try ths book Balazs. Gives a good grounding of all the factors to consider. The Evaluation and Optimization of Trading Strategies by Robert Pardo Trading Sytems That Work by Thomas Stridsman

1st insight - Retail traders like to pick tops and bottoms, as they perceive that is the way to make money. Problem is, the vast majority of retail traders lose. 2nd insight - The biggest problem with trading divergence signals, even if you manage to make some money from them, is that it puts you in a completely wrong state of mind. It causes your brain to be looking for reasons to go against the prevailing trend. Problem is, most of the money made in the markets are by trend followers. And if your brain is looking for divergences, it almost always will mean you are missing out on the much bigger trending moves. It will also result in you having many failed entries when divergence appears then vanishes due to the trend continuing, meaing you have just missed out on another trend move by trying to pick a reversal. So for every profitable divergence signal someone can show me, I can show them 10 failed signals. That just isn't possible when it comes to taking trend signals. Divergence setups can be useful as exit points, but if you wish to discover TRUE divergence signals you need to analyse multiple timeframes.

@DO OR DIE I think most people are familiar with traditional divergence. It is easy to see when price reaches a new extreme, yet the oscillator hasn't. Although in your exmaple of early detection, price hasn't even reached new lows yet. What I'm interested in though, is seeing how you might detect divergence that fails to show in traditional oscillators. To show how you can avoid double and triple divergence signals which so regualry occur, before taking a trade. Showing how and when one enters, knowing in all likelihood that the swing point is in place, and you won't be stopped out on a blip. Divergence has been studied for decades. There is a reason the professionals rarely trade them. So if someone claims they have something special, then they need to show how it is superior to the standard divergence signals, which lose money most of the time. And even more important, when do you exit. Are you trading for a big reversal or just a small reaction? I'm yet to see any discussion at all on this thread of any value, let alone 'advanced'.

Sorry, I missed seeing the URL to your explanation or ruleset. I will go and read it. The numbers are random because they have no meaning to anyone here, unless they knowing exactly why you were entering and exiting where you did. And even then, without seeing a visual chart, it means they have to go an apply the rules to each chart to discover if they can replicate your results. Which in a sense isn't always a bad thing, but it does add a level of complexity and hassle without simply being able to see a chart here.

@ Do OR DIE What are you trying to boast, prove or demonstte by posting a random set of numbers on a random set of stocks? Isn't this thread supposed to be about discussing advanced divergence strategy? You attack another poster on here, then you proceed to make the same mistakes, only in a different way. Just dumb. How about posting some charts of these supposed trades, showing the entries, exits and why they were taken, and showing why your method is superior to just trying to trade random divergent signals on standard indicators? Otherwise you simply waste your time posting all these random numbers, as that is all they are to readers here. Oh, it also destoys any respect people will have for you for anything you choose to post in the future.

The topic is divergence URMA but there is little upside for end users if you come and take it off on a tangent by presenting black box indicators that show zero proof of being any different to price based indicators. You might know they are different, and know they perform better, and even if you can show users they do, so what? No one can buy them, and even if they could, it would be really bad advice to use a black box indicator to trade ones own money. Any long term professional will tell you that. So if you wish to add real insight to the divergence topic, you need to tackle it a different way. I'm sure if you add something of real interest and value, that people will be encouraged to ask questions rather than throw sand on you You must remember you are a marketer, so it places an even greater burtden on you if you choose to participate by showing your own tools.