dandxg

Eiger, I am no expert, but decent so I will chime in if that's ok. I think your read is spot on. If I was going to buy a B, which is no supply or a test, I would do so with an expectation that the high of A will be retested. As I approach the high of A which is also your upper trend channel another supply line I would be watching the momentum on the tape to see if you are going to punch through or bounce off like it did. Now if I could ask you a question? If you bought at B would you a breakout of the high with a stop below the low of bar B or would you buy at close. I have been experimenting with both and just trying to get some opinions if it's not to personal? BTW I like your example of using trend channels with VSA/PV. I still have difficulty with combining the two. If my read is correct B and D are no supply tests which is a good sign for your uptrend channel and should give one confidence on a possible target and expectation. I vaguely recall Sebastion pointing out in one of the customer events that when approaching the supply line in an uptrend you want to see UT's and ND's off the supply line to see that it's respected which is what you appear to have at A and A1. Maybe this is one where using $tick or $ticki would assist?

Yeah I am on 3 way voice for skype right now. The only downside is the one who starts the conference call needs to have the fastest computer because you are the super node per skype. You can also check out tradingrooms.com and get a free room, voice isn't as good as skype but you can post live charts too.

Good post browns. I realized long ago that I make money in normal conditions not when Bear Sterns is on the verge of BK.

Friend, stick to you plan. Don't get seduced by big money that need bigger stops. If it's not part of your plan for the day don't do it. This is how many ppl. have blown up in the last 9 months. I know how you feel believe I do. I have been working on some new trade set ups that have to been tested manually and I have missed alot of action in the last couple of weeks. I have a tip for you though. Find a S/R line(s) that you like and only take trades around there with your stop per your plan. Be selective, don't chase the market. In times of volatility like we have had off and on since last summer you will have discipline or you will most likely blow up. Pros consider risk amateurs only look at proft.

Zeon, don't feed bad we have all been there.

Hi Sledge, I hope Eiger doesn't mind as I own the boot camp video, the answer would be yes. I think it would be similar to if you had an upthrust immediately after a springboard, esp if that springboard showed up to the right after capitulation selling. Hopefully, Eiger can confirm for you. Good trading to all.

A question if I could please. For those that use $tick to confirm PV signals do you use the 2 on the same time frame. I ask because a friend of mine uses A/D on a 1 minute but trades the ES off of a 3 min? I guess that would be some attempt to front run? Anyway that's why I ask. Thanks much Eiger for sharing that. It would definitely give me more confidence to truly buy low and sell high with PV. Currently I would wait for a breakout of the range and buy/sell a pullback on lesser volume.

Well said, don't waste your time on DOM, focus on T and S or trade with price and volume, which is the same as T and S with a different graphical representation. Also as reported by some other OEC customers they have had major problems lately and appear to suffer from a lack of redundancy.

I agree completely. I should have been more specific. I am talking about failed tests I have seen which are the 2nd or even 3rd retest after the volume spike, which is capitulation selling/buying or at least it appears so at that time. James a request if I could? Would you consider doing some more videos on MP with VSA/PV? Those are great and the 2 methods combined are quite special IMO. Also while I am at James do you still use T and S or did you scrape it for PV/VSA with MP? Just curious as I like the video you did with tape reading that I can't find on TL now? I found it a bit easier for me to use PV/VSA than T and S, but maybe it's just me? Good trading to all.

I definitely agree. That said I have seen more than few instances where these low volume tests fail. In fact, I have seen some that punch through the low with lesser volume than than the original S/R marker on higher volume. I will try to find an example to post. It is for this reason, until someone can explain this phenomena better to me I wait for a confirmed reversal and buy or sell the first pullback on lower volume.

As you know there are pros and cons to everything. TG plots the indicators, most of the time, for you, which can make it easier to spot. The problem is that it misses alot of good VSA set ups that don't get plotted for whatever reason. TG even talks about on the bootcamp video, which I own, that is very good IMO. Let me give a you a good idea. Look up this thread Blu-Ray was nice enough to convert some code the emulates a lot of what TG does for free! http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/46/vsa-no-demand-no-supply-and-3455-2.html#post31546 TG does give ppl a 30 day money back which is good, and full access to educational events, which us bootcamp only folks don't get. I just don't think it's work $2,500. Now they are charging $2,500 for the VSA symposium to teach you all of the VSA secrects, etc. You get the point. I am grateful to them for teaching VSA and price and volume, but $5k don't think so.

Db, I took your suggestion and converted my VSA bar chart to a line on close very easy to strength and weakness, although I am not sure how I would trade off of it, but very nice for confirmation.

Thanks much everyone.

Will you ban posters in your blog that use VSA and SMI terms?:rofl::)Sorry feeling punchy lack of sleep, couldn't help that. Thanks again for all that you do. I appreciate that you and others on this thread constructively challenge the thinking of members of this thread. It forces all of us to re-evaluate which leads to higher understand.

What I find that works for me is to look at the macro and then the micro. Here's what I mean. After looking at the DB's diagrams on ET for countless hours I just look for a pullback on lighter volume that is clearly indentifiable and then I look for an upthrust or a no demand for entry. Why? Because they are both logical to me. I have the macro correct which drives the ND or UT trade set up. For a newbie to price volume, the specicifity of looking for an exact bar gives the structure which I need to keep on plan. Keeping to one's trade plan we can all agree is of vital importance.

Thanks guys. Do either of you mind sharing if you use a 60 min or 30 IB for ags since the hours are shorter than ZB or ES?

Wow so much to ponder! I agree there is too much info put on smart money and market manipulation when it comes to price and volume. And yes DB I find myself using VSA terms when attending LTG's free chat and get reprimanded with SMI terms which is ridiculous IMO, but I do appreciate their free teaching. I believe MP is very complimentary to PV because they are both based on price and volume. Or maybe it's just that I have found methods which are logical and make sense to me? Who knows but they work for me. Good trading to all.

Sure you are correct. We both know you know more than I. Heck I learned from you. It was the best diagram I could find at the moment. I think it was Robert Evans that founded SMI, not that it matters. I agree it's nothing more than support ( ice ) and the resistance ( creek ).

Here is a better example. You can't see, this is more of a pure VSA approach, but the volume is slightly less than the previous 2, makes a higher close, and the range if pretty narrow. This is a better example as it shows a double top, both of which at upthrusts. It would sell this no demand bar.

Thanks Mister Ed, I totally forgot I had Snag It, as I have never used it or posted a chart. Hope this comes out ok. Sell this No Demand. It a nice pullback on lower volume after it breaks the trading range area of distribution. The only downside is that it is a level close not higher, but the volume decrease is major over the previous 2 bars and it's a narrow range so I would sell at close with a stop 2 ticks above the high. It also makes a higher high but close way off the high, bonus sign of weakness.

Sledge and others, I don't have microsoft paint to mark up chart so I apologize, maybe this will help. If you look at this diagram of a wyckoff trading range with the jump the creek, it's the exact inverse of your short. http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2004/05/wyckoff_spring.html A better diagram of the same thing is on page 4 out of 12 on Wyckoff buy and sell tests. You shorted at #1 or 2 whereas Sebastian, using different VSA terms, would recommend you sell at # 12 or 14. Remember it would be the inverse of this diagram. I hope this makes sense. Maybe nice DB Phoenix can post a chart with a more clearer example of what I am attempting to show you in the inverse? I really need to get paint and figure out how to post charts. It's much safer to buy or sell a pullback once it break out of the trading range on lesser volume. The problem with buying or selling so early in the range is that you don't have any confirmation of the range. Also, and I need to get this myself, Jack Huston Charting the Stock Market the Wyckoff Way shows you how to use Wyckoff point and figure to determine the possible max move and were a stop should be. I also attached some documents that come from well respected Wyckoff experts like Hank Pruden and Jim Forte. I hope it helps. Wyckoff Article on buy and sell tests.pdf Wyckoff Money Management.pdf MTWyckoffSchematics.pdf

Sure, most welcome. Some nice ppl. have been helping me and I believe in reciprocating. I give big kudos to James aka Soul Trader as I really like his use of combining market profile with VSA/Wyckoff. I know originally PP did an offshoot of it. It works well so far. I am not sure how you would do that with forex, I primarily focus on ER2, ES, and some ags. If someone is interested in trying this in the indices check this link. http://www.mypivots.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=3.7&TOPIC_ID=2531⾫ This nice guy posts them before market open for free. Today the market opened below VAL on ER2 and VSA/Wyckoff showed UT's and ND's clearly right at the VAL so short. I am still testing a bit more before I start clicking in with real $$$ the MP and VSA combined. I would also would highly recommend you post the previous day's high and low on your chart. These are key S/R lines. Watch for set ups around these areas. I think DB in another post/forum recommended the previous day's close as well. Maybe he can chime in and confirm/decline? Good trading to all.

Hi Sledge, I am no VSA expert, but I have been studying it full time for about 5 months so I will chime in. I am a TG customer, but just for book and boot camp. On a TG customer only event last week Sebastian advised strongly not to try and sell at the point that you did. He said it would be extremely aggressive, something only someone like Tom Williams himself would try. He suggested waiting for confirming signs of weakness. At minimum you would want to see a no demand bar after that red bar which is an upthrust, preferably you want to see that ND in the upper 1/3 of the UT. The upper 1/3 is something I learned from another price volume expert. It must have a higher close, volume that is less than the previous 2 bars, and a for me a more narrow range. Some ND's , that work, show up as equal closes with a very narrow range and volume less than previous 2 bars. So at minimum you should have waited for a ND, another UT, or a combo of both after the initial UT on the daily to show up on a smaller time frame. TG recommends using a 240 min, then drilling down to even a 60 min, and a 15 or 5 min for entry. I have heard both Tom Williams, Sebastian, and Todd Krueger say that on your entry chart after the higher time frame confirms you will see it littered with UT's, ND, and sometimes and end of rising market ( which is a narrow range at the high with extreme volume ). The top will also have a mushroom look to it, a sort of rounded top. Furthermore, and an even more safe place to enter would be after the mark down starts, which will be shown after the market has broken through support of the trading range ( which Wyckoff SMI calls ICE ) in the distribution area you wait for a pullback on low volume which will often be ND and sometimes UT followed by ND and sell there, or buy in reverse situation. The point being that this is a much safer entry then trying to sell or buy at the extreme which is essentially what you were doing. I attempted to do the same thing as you about 1 week on euro futures and got whacked promptly for 10 ticks, no big deal, but I would of course rather not lose. So now I just wait for a confirmed reversal at the high or low after signs of weakness or strength and buy or sell on pullback on low volume. If you have ever used fibs before, you will often see the first pb on lower volume after the confirmed reverse will occur at 38%, but that's just a side note. I hope this made sense.

Db, I am just starting to tinker with MP in addition to using VSA and Wyckoff and it apppears quite good. I need to look at more trades and gather a few more stats. Previously, I had just used pivot points and the previous day's high or low. I had a little bit of previous exp. with MP having studied it for a bit last summer. I believe the reason why both are complimentary are they are both based on volume which is a method of trading based on sound logic. I just want to give another note of thanks to Soul Trader as I watched his videos using the two and. For example, today the ER2 opened below VAL and it showed clear weakness as defined by VSA and Wyckoff as it approached the area and rejected the VAL twice on a 3 min chart. Get short. Then it penetrated the PDL on volume and started to pullback on lower volume. Get short again.

I am curious to hear some feedback from some traders that use MP with ags such as corn, soy. Does it work well like it appears to in the ES, ER2, etc?