james_gsx

James, thanks for the thread. I have a ton of questions but I don't really know how to ask any of them. I know Darthtrader uses MarketDelta for his MP charts, but is there anything else that you would recommend? Does anything work with TradeStation?

I found this blog on my Yahoo page and thought I would share. I've seen a few of you post about being perfectionists and I know I am one. Enjoy.. http://brainwaves.corante.com/archives/2007/12/04/do_your_worst.php

2007 is almost at it's close, hopefully you all made some good money. There are always things we could work on in our trading careers, so I thought I could make a thread dedicated to some of our accomplishments in 2007 and goals for 2008. Of course none of it has to relate to money or anything personal, but rather skills and other things we would like to improve. My accomplishments for 2007: 1 - Finding what caused my fear in trading and starting the process of facing the fear 2 - Not blowing up any accounts 3 - Finding a style of trading that fit my personality and building a trading plan around it. My goals for 2008 1 - Become consistent 2 - Overcome my tendency to over analyze 3 - Trade full-time When I first started trading I wanted to trade full time by December. Although I didn't know what it really took to become a full time trader and all the roadblocks I would face. I now feel like I can trade full time before the end of 2008 if I stay persistent and work hard to achieve the goal. Have a happy holidays (I don't think that's correct grammar) and don't get too drunk on New Years :o

And I think we need a definition of random before this thread goes on anymore. I agree exactly with what PP says but when I'm trading I know that anything can happen therefore I believe it's random. And by random I mean when I enter my trade it could go up or down, and I don't know and that's what makes it random. Hopefully that makes sense.

We could go on and on arguing why candlesticks work and don't work. But it would be completely pointless, I could look at a chart and the candles make sense, in real time and after the fact. You could look at the chart and see a bunch of colors and nonsense. I could look at the chart and tell you whether I would go long or short in a matter of seconds (in real time) and most likely be right. It just comes from screen time not necessarily knowing all the candles and what the previous bar says. The same goes with VSA, I might think it's confusing and I don't understand it... but it could be simple to you. At the end of the day, the charts say the same thing. It doesn't matter how you read the chart, as long as you understand it and it makes you money. If VSA makes you money and it's easy for you to use, then use it. If candlesticks make perfect sense, then use that.

I know, and that's why I said I don't think it would ever happen. But I do think it's possible. I don't think it will be a formula that you could just plug in a few numbers and get the answer. Maybe I don't explain what I'm talking about properly, some will understand and some won't. If we have come as far as we have with physics and math, then I think it's entirely possible it could be used with the markets. I believe everything can be broken down into math and physics, but that's just my opinion. But for the time being, a single trade can offset the market and make it random. But we have trendlines, support and resistance, market profile, and all those other tools that helps us rule out some of the randomness. Those tools help us break the market down into probabilities which is why trendlines work. That's also the same reason why sometimes they don't work.

You have to understand that the markets can move because of just one person. That's why they are random, because one person can disagree with a trendline and bid up/down the price and then the trendline is broken. If that makes sense. But in all honesty, I don't believe it's random just like I don't believe anything is random. I think there are some complex mathematic equations that can predict the market and be right 100% of the time. I don't believe that will ever happen, but I think it's possible.

Is the chat room working? I can't get in.

Zdo, Sorry it has taken me so long to reply, I actually looked at this a while ago and I've been listening to the podcasts on Steve Pavlina's website and they have been very helpful. Not just for trading but for my life in general.

I have never heard of J-charts, it looks similar to market profile so honestly I would go with market profile. With market profile you don't need any fancy charting software, a website with big words to promise easy trading or any of that stuff to lure in newbies. Check out all the market profile threads on the site and read Mind over Markets if you're interested. MP isn't exactly easy to learn and it will take some time, but that's the way it is with anything really. The reason I think you should look at MP over these J-Charts is rather simple, you'll find a lot more support on forums and there are plenty of resources out there to help you learn. Many people here are successful using MP and they would be more than happy to help you out with any questions you have. There is an entire section devoted to Market Profile here... http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f6/ And here is a link to the book review.. http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f8/mind-over-markets-by-james-f-69.html Just thought you should know, I don't trade using MP. I currently use candlesticks and basic technical analysis patterns. I am reading Mind over Markets and I hope that I can find a way to utilize market profile with my current style of trading. Whatever you decide to go with make sure it fits with your personality. If you're uncomfortable with it then don't do it because it will only add stress and emotion. Be cautious of all those sites that advertise easy trading - you should focus more on your own emotion than any type of analysis. Spend less time looking for that holy grail and more time eliminating your emotion

Oops, I forgot the charts so here you go. I went with 243 and 729 because I like things to happen fast, for some of you that might be too fast or too slow. Notice that the contract is the YM. If you plug in a 243vbc into the ES it will look like splattered paint. Just multiply 729 by 3 once or twice until you get something that you can work with. If you don't like the integer number then just make one up, there isn't a magic number just go with whatever works for you.

I'd much rather use VBCs, I think candles are more valuable that way in the sense that you actually see the fight. I know I stole that from you brownsfan lol I also think it depends on the type of day, is it trending or is it rangebound? If it's a trending day I like to use a larger VBC number and look for setups that will catch the bigger trend. For example if I see a hammer, and that is confirmed a MA crossover then I will enter the trade. On a range bound day I use mostly support/resistance and other technical patterns that I have learned to read fairly quickly. This is a little more difficult and requires more screen time IMO. If I see the market trending towards resistance then a doji appears I will wait for confirmation, then when I get that confirmation I will go with the new trend. As Brownsfan said sometimes it helps to add something aside from just the candles and support and resistance lines. I came up with my own stochastic's that used the same integer I use for my VBC's. Not really sure if this works yet, but looking at historical charts it seems to work. I will have to play with it more in real time and decide if that's the direction I want to take. I also think it's important to point out that I use a smaller VBC setting for this. For those that don't know how to choose a VBC setting all I did was found a simple integer (usually 3 or 4) and kept multiplying it until I found what worked best for me. 3 x 3 x 3 x 3 etc until I came up with 243 and 729 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 etc, it all depends on what works best with your trading style. I included a few charts. Two of them are 243vbc and the other two are 729vbc. One is for Friday the other is for Thursday, you can probably figure out which is range bound and which one is a trending day. What do you notice between the two? Frankly with that choppy market on Thursday that 729 chart would have chopped me up, but the 243vbc let me see more opportunities. Other people may see different things and completely disagree with me, but each person is different and has their own style of trading. Right now I am working on learning Market Profile. I want to see if I can integrate Market Profile into my candlestick analysis. So if anyone has a lot of experience in MP or in both I think it would be beneficial if we could start a thread on that. Personally I believe CA on it's own is worthless... and this comes from personal experience. But if you combine CA with other technical techniques such as VSA, support/resistance, other technical patterns, etc... then candlestick analysis can be very beneficial. For example would you buy/sell a doji in the middle of a tight range? No, but if the market was trending higher and you saw a defined doji against resistance whether that be a Fib number or a previous high then that would definitely resemble a much stronger warning. I am definitely no expert with candlestick analysis, I can read a chart and tell you what the candle means and things like that. But I still have a lot to learn, and only screen time can get me there.

You should just read Mark Douglas Trading in the Zone. I think more traders respect him and his books are very valued. He does a great job breaking down why new traders have such a hard time trading and the difference between successful traders. New traders aren't accustomed to a place with no rules or structures. They feel like they have to know what's next and they have high expectations. These thoughts set themselves up for failure before they even open an account. Most traders feel pain when they are in a trade and it goes against them. Theres no reason to feel any sort of emotion when the market goes against you, the market generates neutral information it's not positive or negative in anyway. New traders expect the market to go their way, and when it doesn't they associate being wrong with pain due to the way we were all brought up. Successful traders embrace uncertainty, they realize they don't need to know what will happen next. Basically they are rigid in their rules and flexible with their expectations. One of my biggest problems is paralysis of analysis, I have the hardest time making a trade because I feel like I need to analyze everything to death. The more I start to believe that I don't need to know what will happen next, and I'm certain that the markets are random and can be influenced by just one trader somewhere, then that paralysis slowly fades. I have to train myself to follow my rules laid out by my plan and take full responsibility of my risk. If I'm wrong it just means I'm wrong, I don't expect to be right or wrong, which is why it's so important to define your risk before you enter a trade. Review here

Combine VSA with something that helps you analyze price and you're golden Whatever fits your personality then use that. If candlesticks don't fit your personality but bar charts do, then use candles. If you decided VSA doesn't work with your personality but market profile does, then use that. You will find that the real edge is your ability to be consistent by following your trading plan and embracing uncertainty while expecting to lose money. Preserve your capital and eliminate emotions and you will be successful. I wish you luck!

You have to understand how candlestick analysis really works before you say it doesn't work. Like Brownsfan said, it is one of the most simple things to trade, especially if you combine it with VBCs. And you don't rely on a single candle in CA, you use the candles to determine the discrepancy between buyers and sellers. You read the candle in correlation to where the market has been moving. For example, a doji or "hammer" doesn't really mean anything in a sideways market, but a hammer after a downtrend could give you heads up. The candles tell a story. I guess I don't really understand what you mean by "If I could move the price action of the day 5 min earlier, all those pretty dojis, hammers, etc... would disappear." Maybe you can clarify that?

I have seen a few prop firms use a institutions software for clearing and information that the retail side can't get, like arbitrage etc. But they use eSignal for charts. Is this becoming more common?

I would look into a few things first. 1 - How much capital do they give you when you put up say, $20,000. 2 - What percent of the gains do you get to keep? There are some that let you keep 100%, I would lean towards those. 3 - What trading software do they use? Is it their own or do they use someone else's software? For example I know Bright uses RediPlus from Goldman Sachs. 4 - How strong is the firm financially? 5 - Does their style of trading interest you? If it doesn't, then theres no point. If you just want to trade the way you do now with more capital then I would look for a firm that just lets you be. I looked through that Kershner Trading website and I liked the team trading idea. But if you like to work alone, that might not work. I suggest you contact them and ask to check out their office on a trading day and see what you think.

Cute dog Raising puppies is fun, yet a challenge at the same time haha

Its http://www.imdb.com James I would agree, American Gangster is a GREAT movie! I recently saw Michael Clayton, if you enjoy movies that make you think and follow a good story then you will love this movie. George Clooney does a great job and has all the twists and foreshadowing you would expect from any of his movies. "Michael Clayton is an in-house "fixer" at one of the largest corporate law firms in New York. A former criminal prosecutor, Clayton takes care of Kenner, Bach & Ledeen's dirtiest work at the behest of the firm's co-founder Marty Bach. Though burned out and hardly content with his job as a fixer, his divorce, a failed business venture and mounting debt have left Clayton inextricably tied to the firm. At U/North, meanwhile, the career of litigator Karen Crowder rests on the multi-million dollar settlement of a class action suit that Clayton's firm is leading to a seemingly successful conclusion. But when Kenner Bach's brilliant and guilt-ridden attorney Arthur Edens sabotages the U/North case, Clayton faces the biggest challenge of his career and his life. " The Darjeeling Limited "Three American brothers who have not spoken to each other in a year set off on a train voyage across India with a plan to find themselves and bond with each other -- to become brothers again like they used to be. Their "spiritual quest", however, veers rapidly off-course (due to events involving over-the-counter pain killers, Indian cough syrup, and pepper spray), and they eventually find themselves stranded alone in the middle of the desert with eleven suitcases, a printer, and a laminating machine. At this moment, a new, unplanned journey suddenly begins." I really didn't think I would enjoy the movie, but after I went with a few friends I must say it was a good movie. The actors did a great job and it I enjoyed the deep meaning to the movie. There is much more to this movie than what hits the surface, and I really liked it. I see a movie at least once every two weeks with my friends, so I think this should be a good thread.

I will be out of town for the rest of the week, but I plan to be in the room Monday morning. Hopefully this idea will stick around that long and you will all be there :o

Thanks for the links Ravin, they actually helped a lot. I am currently reading Mark Douglas Trading in the Zone. It's a great book but I haven't seen anything where he gives you any ideas on how to achieve the consistent attitude that he talks about so often in the book. Maybe it's at the end and I haven't gotten there, but I sort of doubt it. I like the idea of setting a set loss/profit limit and trading until I hit those limits. Blowfish I would agree a lot stems from the ego. I know for one if I went to my friends and told them how much money I lost I'd feel like an idiot. I have too much pride to let them think I'm failing at something. Most outsiders don't understand what traders go through before they become profitable. Whereas we could all talk about how much money we lost and it's a normal conversation. Tell a random person you met and you'll see the fear in their eyes immediately. A few weeks ago I was writing in my journal and came across an interesting conclusion. I have an image that I've always felt I had to project. This image was tearing me apart and not actually letting me do anything at all. I made myself feel like a failure because I couldn't live up to my own image. I would imagine we could tie in the ego to projecting the image. I know I'm not the only one who displays a false image in order to protect ones ego. Wow, that all makes me come across as a complete arrogant ass. But I promise I'm not I am leaving tomorrow for a wedding so I won't be able to trade this week. But I have something to think about and add to my trading plan. Thanks again for your responses Ravin and Blowfish.

I read the article Analysis Paralysis and I will admit that one of my biggest problems has been to analyze everything to death. For a while I couldn't come up with a trading plan because at first I was making it too simple and I thought there was more to it. Well I found out that being simple was right to begin with. I know that I am a good technical analyst and I know that I am right a good portion of the time. I would admit that I do have some work at analyzing risk/reward in real time situations but I can still analyze a chart and decide where it will go next. Over the last month I have begun to embrace uncertainty and admit that I don't need to know where the market will go next. If I stick with my trading plan and setups then I will survive. There are thousands of tools ranging from market profile, to candlestick analysis that will aid me to figure out what will happen next but at the end of the day it could be one trader that changes all of it and makes me wrong. The more I accept this reality the clearer I see the markets and the opportunities presented to me everyday. This has been a huge step for me, but the period of time where I suffered from analysis paralysis I instilled a fear of trading into my head where now it's difficult for me to even pull the trigger. I see my account and immediately remember all those times I pulled the trigger and the trade immediately went against me and the pain of losing money. That pain is instilled in my brain and I need to help to get rid of it. I don't believe I'm undercapitalized because I have a few accounts and they range into the 6 digits (I don't want to give out a number on a forum). This problem doesn't just relate to the futures markets, but all markets. I'm not worried about losing all of the money, I just have a fear of being wrong. I have realized my entire life I have put myself up against very high standards and when I don't meet those standards my subconscious mind automatically pin points me as a failure. So when I lose, I believe I'm a failure. I know this probably sounds ridiculous and I do wonder if the more I train myself to fully believe that anything could happen and accept full responsibility of the risk with every trade this may go away. But the fear of losing is programmed in my brain like a child who encounters a dog for the first time and is attacked. The child has no reason to believe a dog is full of love, the child just remembers an aggressive animal attacking him and is therefore afraid of dogs. Do you have any suggestions to overcome this fear? I think I have accomplished a few steps by identifying the problem and understanding it exists. But I am stumped when it comes to de-programing that fear. It's easy to say, "Just follow your trading plan, act like a robot." But in reality, it never really works that way. I can't just follow my plan and hope that the fear will immediately kick in. I know the seconds leading up to pulling the trigger my brain will freeze and I will perceive the markets in a completely different way. I want to be able to trade the way I analyze - free of emotion and the ability to see the countless opportunities presented by the market. One other thing I will be in Vegas in January for three weeks for a trading "camp" with the firm I will trade for. Since I will be in a room full of other traders I am wondering if my very competitive nature will kick in. Basically, will this fear of losing be pushed aside so my competitive nature will be able to focus and beat everyone else? I won't be competing with anyone per se, but I will want to stand out and have the best results. I do this naturally in any situation where I am doing the same thing as everyone else from selling at work to playing any form of sport. I'm interested in what your feedback might be on that. I am also hoping that the professionals that are there might be able to identify a few things I do that I am unaware of. Thanks for your help, and anyone else who can help. I honestly believe once I overcome this speed bump that I will be on my way to a very profitable trading career. I am determined to succeed and overcome this, but I just don't know where to start.

Welcome, what made you decide to go prop?

James, the documentary link doesn't work anymore and I'd like to see it again. Do you by chance still have it?

I will do my best to be in tomorrow morning. This sounds like a good idea.