Gekko78

I cannot confirm or deny that I ever "bought" anything.......All I can say is that I came across the info.........You can find anything if you know where to look. As for being able to interpret the DOM. There is no set time. I am still learning things everyday . Each DOM behaves differently than the next. The ES is way different than the ZN and CL . You have to study each one. I did start noticing things immediately after reading and watching them. But , I by no means know all of it. It is hard at first to watch the flow happen in like the ES because it happens so quick ....but all the info you need is right there to make $. My suggestion is , if you do not want to pay for a good DOM, is to TURN OFF your charts on whatever you trade and watch the DOM on Ninja for a while and see if you can predict where price is going to go based on what you see happening on the DOM. The NJ DOM is lacking but still way better than a chart.

Sure , I was doing research a while ago on something else and happened to come across this site during a webinar I was watching. I learned that Charts, indicators, oscillators , tick counts etc, etc do not work over time because they are always showing the past.......in order for all that stuff to print on a chart it has to have already happened. This guy talks this way. If you think about it , it all makes perfect sense. Most professional day traders DO NOT use indicators and charts to trade off of.... they use DOM , order book and they read tape. They look at charts maybe once a day just a reminder of where the high/low from previous sessions were and a few key levels but thats it. They know where the "dumb money" retail traders like us are going to be in at. They know that many use the indicators I mentioned. So they will be looking to fade your move. If you do research you will find that most prop trading firms will not even let new traders look at charts until they can be profitable trading the order book. As a day trader the past is irrelevant, you need to know what is happening NOW right at this moment , not 5 minutes ago , not a hour ago .....RIGHT NOW. There are a few other sites that are good on this information but this is where I started. John ( owner of the site) is awesome at explaining this and demonstrating this.

I believe the 2 being compared is quite accurate. Not s much how you mentioned it but as to a game of skill as opposed to a game of chance like roulette or slots or something like that. In poker the ability to read the other players moves before they make them is quite valuable. In trading the same thing applies. Even thoug opyou cannot see anyone physically you still have the ability to read what players might be doing or thinking if you know what to look for and how to do it. In fx specifically this is quite hard but there are other markets that this can be done in once you understand how ether work.

My thoughts on day trading stocks are quite dim. I believe there are to may barriers to entry to day trade them successfully for the average person. 1) capital requirements ( if in the US) 2) you need pretty good price movement in a day to actually make money and you need a lot of shares unless you have #1 3) Commission cost are way to high 4) stocks are much easier to manipulate than say futures or fx You also need the right tools like level 2 and such which will eat in to your profits , if you make any , causing you to need to make more to BE athe costs for those tools is also much higher in stock trading than other markets that I have found. You could always try day trading penny stocks ( which is much worse IMHO ) even though they are the sewer stocks of the market. Some have made a lot of money from them. You could get lucky and pick the next google or something like that but the odds are against it. I believe stocks should be kept longer term unless you have the $$ to do it. However if you do decide to venture that way I wish you the best of luck.

That's a shame . There was a lot of good information in those removed posts. The advertising ones I agree with but all the other ones, even thoug some of them were a bit sketchy , contained some valuable info.

Oops! Guess I was wrong.

This will be my last post regarding Dom vs charts as I feel like I do when debating why free markets are the solution and not the disease. Here's what I believe ( yes I believe , that does not mean you have to believe ) Prices moves happen because of 2 things Cause and effect Charts only show effect Dom shows cause And effect Indicators only show effect , volume bars only show effect . Ticks counts only show effect I guess I should have started a new thread right when this discussion started , my bad Dom trading is not the only way so please hear and listen when I say that . I get it . There are many other ways to trade , invest , scalp. Whatever you want to call it. What I know is at MOST ( most does not mean all ) pros who day trade looking to scalp use this type of trading. It works . So I am just going to do wht MOST (again most does mean all) prop traders do. Dom trading is like poker . It allows you to see everyone's hand before they throw it down. Sometimes they are bluffing , sometimes they are not . Once you learn how to read what is happening everything becomes more clear . It does not work 100% of the time , nothing does but it works more than it does not. If I were going to compare charts to poker then it would be like saying AFTER the hand is over , " oh dang that guy had a full house!" how does that help me now? The hand is over What are the chances of him getting it again? Sure the volume bars might tell me that he had a full house a few hands ago but again how does that help me right now at this moment in time? it does not. Just because there was a huge price spike at xxxx price does not mean that it will happen again when it gets there. A chart does not tell you why. Maybe it was some big hedge fund guy unloading a bunch of contacts and decided that was a good place to get out. Volume will tell me that something big actually happened there but it will not tell me why . Had I been watching a Dom I would have seen large orders being placed and coming through and said " hmmm those orders that are being placed look pretty big I better pay attention" now if he pulls them i would have seen that to and i might have said " ok herre is a guy who might want me to "THINK" he has a full house .now when price gets back to that level again I would be watching for those big orders , if I don't see them now I have to play it differently. A chart will not show any of that . How can an oscillator, trend line , indicator , candlestick , bar or line tell me what joe at abc hedge fund is trying to do? It can't . A Dom Can show you what he is trying to do better than any chart. Adom will also show you what he wants you to think,It's not perfect but it is an edge. This is what I have chosen to do . Does that mean it is for everyone? Nope It's like that old progressive car insurance commercial that used to run a few years ago when the lady would say " progressive is usually the best but, sometimes we're not " Same things applies here. If it is not for you that's ok.

Predictor I agree with you that you need specialized software to trade the tape in the trading world today. I mentioned in many of my posts that I use said software,not yours , but, I have never mentioned the name of it. I am not a vendor or anything like I just try to follow the rules even though I am not selling anything anyway . If you really want people to learn about your product or service why don't you just pm them? I would assume that's it allowed since you are not posting on the board. In my regular day job I am in sales . I have been in sales for 8 years now and what you are doing is selling plain and simple. Which is fine but you just have to do it the right way.

Not upset...just tired of trying explain. Do not want you to change. Wanted you to understand. Watch a real DOM , not Ninja Trader crap . A real one and you will see what I am talking about.

This is assuming that there are a bunch of ignorant traders trying to make a buck and there is this one nasty demon dude out to snooker them. It just doesn't happen that way...at least not in the markets I trade. Sorry but this IS how the markets work. If you watched the DOM you would see that. Except its not just one demon trader its many.

I am a scalper , why would I care about 2 years ago???? 2 hrs ...thats easy I see where the market was ALL DAY . My platform calculates contracts all day at every price. Its fine ....you obviously do not get it. Your argument is flawed but I am done talking about it. If you actually take the time to learn it ....you would understand. Good day to you sir.

Maybe this will help you : The DOM can show you something that no chart on earth will show you. See, with the DOM, you can actually view what just didn't happen. With the tape running unfiltered tick data, you see raw executions, or in other words, you see what just happened a millisecond ago. When you know how to use the DOM, you also see the large scalpers at work as they go about their job of suckering you and everyone else into taking the other side of their position. They want to short 20k lots, they need to find some buyers. And they're going to rely on those buyers placing stop orders - that's how they're going to profitably close their positions. But here's the rub: you want to build a 20k lot position, you don't just kick a market order in there. You have to manipulate and finesse your way into the position. That manipulation is not visible on the chart - all you see on the chart are the normal fluctuations in the market. However, the manipulation is clearly visible on the DOM - if you know what to look for.

I thought you were some kind of teacher? If you really have to ask this question I suggest you Google it. Here :......A tick is a single trade irrespective of size. A tick chart builds each bar based on a certain number of ticks per bar. A 233 tick chart will create a new bar after every 233 trades have gone through. BOTTOM LINE IS NOTHING PRINTS ON A CHART UNTIL AFTER IT HAPPENS......Do you know of a chart the shows orders being placed 10 deep?? I thought not. Do you know of a chart the tells you how many contracts went through on that 1 trade? Not the tick , the trade. Dont you think it might be just a little bit helpful to know whether price ticked up because of a 20 lot order or a 200 lot order?? I sure would like to know....... Don't you think it would be just a little bit helpful to know how many contracts traded at the price 10 ticks above you entry if you have a 15 tick target?? I sure would like to know......... Allow your mind to accept this ...... it is not rocket science. It is hard to learn but once you learn it you will never trade the same again.

Yes you are correct , and if you have the right tools you can see the 1000 lot print. NJ will not show you that but other tools will. Learning the market profile does not happen over night. It takes a while to see how the markets actually work. Also the 200 order you talk about then pulls it , you will not see on a chart.

Roger , You are missing my point here. You are in a losing trade because what you thought was going to happen , according to your rules , did not and you are in a loss. A S/L order should only be used for emergencies like 10 ticks or something just in case the market shoots through you quickly and you had no time to get out. Having the 10 tick stop and 15-20 tick target is useless( for me) why do I have to get out @15 ticks? What if the order flow is telling me there might be another 5 if I see the set up on the DOM happening? So because it hit 15 I have to get out?? Why should I let price get ALL the way down to my stop loss before I get out? What if I thought price was going up ....and it start to go down and I see sellers coming into the market on the offers selling into the bids?? Should I wait and let everything get all the way down to my S/L?? No way ....I would rather take a 2-3 tick loss than a 10 tick loss. If you are reading order low correctly you should never have a 10 tick loss. The number of contracts is irrelevant I just picked 200 out of thin air ....make it whatever number you wish. You are correct though in saying trading is not you against the pros........The pros are not against you either but they know when people are going to make stupid mistakes like cross overs , breakouts of trendlines etc....so will they take advantage of that if they see it ? Of course. they will , why wouldn't they? That is why they are pros. The point is to "recognize" what the big guys are doing and go with them......If you do not see big orders coming through on what should be a breakout then why would you go long and trade it? Because some line went through another line marked 0? Or because a candle formed above where price stopped before?? Because the amount of ticks that I have programmed on my chart ended above it? I want to see big orders coming through and the bids going up , I want to see the offers hammering the bids and the bids sticking. then I know its real .....not because a candle closed at some random point that wouldn't have happened had I set the tick count another 10 higher or lower. What about the guy who pops a 500 lot buy order 30 seconds later? What about him?? If the offers are heavier then his order does not matter. If the offers keep coming in they will eat his 500 buy for breakfast and the offer will keep refreshing........if the 500 lot cannot make the market go bid then that is a sure sign of weakness..... and I would be shorting.....YET AGAIN something you will not see on a chart. Tick charts , candles , lines bars and all that stuff show the PAST ...it is always the PAST even a 1tick chart is the past ....it does not form until it already happened. We can either keep going on and on about this if you want to but I see no point in it. I am not going to change anyones mind and no one is going to change mine.

This website changed my life.

I do not trade the ES either.....I was just citing it as an example. What is is good .....but what might be moves the market more than you might realize. 1t cannot show this. However if it ain't broke don't fix it Kudos to those that are having success however they trade .

Well "intention" often moves the market more than what happened. A guy throws a 1000 lot offer 3 ticks above the price .....that will probably make people nervous .... again something you cannot see on a tick , or any other , chart.

DB, Yes I stated earlier in this post that scalping is not the only way .....there are MANY different ways. One thing I have trouble with then it comes to tick charts( or any chart setting for that matter ) is this: Lets say that you are trading the ES and you have it set to a 200 tick chart.....you are watching the candles, lines , bars whatever , form and you see that right as the tick count hits 200 that the entry has met all of your criteria and you enter the trade long .....now as soon as the first tick hits on the candle , line, bar , a 200 lot sells into the bid dropping the price back down below your entry ....you are now immediately in a losing trade. Had you been watching the DOM you probably would have seen that coming before that .....maybe maybe not ........the point is you DEFINITELY would have not seen that coming simply from a tick chart.....there is no way you could. Do I think that a DOM , time and sales are the be all end all of trading ? Nope...not even close. Do I think it gives me odds over guys who just look at charts:? Yep without a doubt, Remember in Vegas the house only has a 1-2% edge over you the customer but that is all they need to make a killing. I am saying that these tools that I use give me an edge ......thats all I need .....even if it is a slight edge it does not matter , an edge is an edge.

I am not going to continue to debate this as I know what happens here when people disagree. Many will see the value in what I am saying , many will not. Does not really matter to me. You are making my point about the hedge fund guy ...... I would follow him and do what he is doing but a CHART will not show you what he is doing. You cannot see his Offers @ 13 so how would I know that unless using a DOM?> I have not fallen into any trap. I learned a long time ago that if you want to be successful then find someone who is successful in what you want and do what they did. Thats what I am doing. That is what works for me . Again I am only speaking from a day trading standpoint.....if you trade off daily's then my information is useless. I am speaking to the people who want the higher probability intraday set ups. Let me ask you a question: do you think that traders on the floors of the exchanges who are trading right there care about chart patterns? What do you think they are watching? Some arbitrary trend line or what the buyers and sellers are actually doing? Gekko out -

Professionals were not born professionals ......they had to learn at some point. This is what they are taught. Many ex pro traders that have written bios or done interviews ( I am talking day traders ) say that charts are useless to trade off of. Indicators do not work , charts are good to see overall picture but NOT for buying/selling points. Everyone likes indicators because they try to "quantify" things......they want an indicator to tell them when to buy or sell. An arrow, an alert a crossover etc..... you cannot quantify the market......if you could then all the algos would be exactly right 100% of the time. They only thing that matters is price , what it is doing RIGHT NOW , not 5 min from now , not 1hr from now ....RIGHT NOW this instant. Thats what matters . Thats what the big guys do. You think they do not know that XXXX is a resistance point? You think they do not know about crossovers? Of course they know . They know that the retail guys are watching that ...so they are just sitting back and waiting for you. Ever wonder why price fails when it goes through a so called "resistance level" on a chart? The pros know where the "levels" are. For example : Lets say that 10 is a level, everyone in the world knows that 10 is a resistance level. Everyone is just sitting around waiting to see if price goes through it. Price is currently @ 8/9 Now lets say there is a hedge fund guy who can buy/sell way more contracts than you can. He also knows that 10 is the level. He thinks a bunch of retail guys like YOU and I will buy if the market goes through 10 so what does he do ? He offers @ 11, 12 , and 13 Offers? Yes Offers He offers a few hundred contracts @ each price .....THEN he buys everything @ 9 and everything @10. Then he bids 2000 @10. His buying and his bids act as the catalyst and the the retail people start buying the 11's 12 and so on and the people who were short @ 7 and 8 are now starting to buy as they are scared. The combination of these two things send prices higher. Hedge fund guy is now selling into your bids @ 11 , 12 and 13 ..... He was ALREADY SET UP TO COVER BEFORE HE EVER BOUGHT! he scalps out with a few ticks and a few hundred contracts price moves back down because no one is buying........and the retail guys are left holding the bag. Please tell me how a tick chart would have shown you any of that scenario? IT would not.

I disagree with your statement here but thats ok. You do what you do and I will do what I do. Like I said before . Professional traders do not trade off charts . They use the above. Also most pro traders are scalpers ....they are in and out ....the do not hold for long periods. Most trading firms will not even let their traders look at a chart until after they can successfully trade of a DOM. So my question would be then why would you not want to do the same thing?? Again if you just trade off charts and it works for you then sweet! But , when the pros do one thing ( and they win) and the retail guys do another ( and most lose) you do not need to be the head cashier of Wal Mart to figure out the math here.

Wow I was away from this thread for like 2 days and the Wars started....yikes! Anyway in keeping up withe original concept of the thread I still think futures are superior. I do not see how one can trade successfully , for any extended period of time, without using order flow , DOM and T&S. Charts alone cannot tell the whole story. In FX you cannot see any of this......all you have is time? time is irrelevant , from charts, 1 min , 5 min or 1 hr does not matter. What can a candle tell you about what REALLY happened? all it can tell you is that in x amount of time , price either went up , down , or sideways but it cannot tell you what actually happened DURING the time........ if price closes up for instance , how many trades did it take for that to happen? How many lots were trades? Was it just a few lots that allowed price to move up or was it a few hundred? Were the big boys playing there or was it just retail guys like us?? Were there spoofs there? Are the big boys waiting for you somewhere on price? Why was x level support/resistance? What actually happened at that level for price to fail/breakthrough that level?? Am I saying it is impossible to make money from anything else? NO of course not but when you have a tool that can make things much easier why would you not use it? Can you drive a nail into the wall with your hand? Sure but it will take much longer , and more pain , to get it in. Why would you not just use a hammer? You can do it either way but, the right tools will give you a better chance of success. Please tell me how you can get the same information from this picture on a chart. If you can provide me all that then please feel free to do so. I eagerly await responses.

Nice.... LOL:thumbs up:

I could go through these point by point but I will not. As I learned many years ago " a man convinced against his will is off the same opinion still" One thing I will comment on is you mention $12.50 is to much for a new trader to handle. While I agrees with you this is more a mental roadblock which really has nothing to do with FX or futures. That is psychology. If $12.50 is to much to handle then trade 6b which is only $6.25 per tick. If futures and FX correlate so well then why not go with the safer bet and trade futures. By safer I am simply referring to $$ safety. Not trading. Having traded FX for about 5 years and then coming over to futures I wish I would have went with futures to start. I did not lose in FX I just started researching more about futures and liked what they offered better than FX. I like reading the tape , I like seeing orders and order flow , I like time and sales. None of these things were available to me in FX . Candlesticks cannot tell you if the order that moved price was 50 lots or 2000 lots.....big difference there. Hey if you are making $$ in FX then awesome !