BlowFish

Ross Hook's will often trigger a traders trick entry but fail if it is actually a two legged correction. As you say momentum is often a good clue that you are only in for a short single leg correction.

In a nutshell barbed-wire. Theres always stuff you can say with hindsight (like the subsequent 'proper' test of the old high) but the BW was already apparent.

Nice chart. It's worth mentioning that there are numerous trend line breaks that did not result in two legs. (un drawn trend lines that would have been valid until they broke resulting in the 'final' channel). Am I right in thinking that first break you would anticipate continuation (particularly with a micro trendline)? It looks like that would have been an OK scalp anyway. I have to say I am always far to ready to take counter trend trades:crap: I'll even scalp the 2nd leg of a 2 leg corection if it looks like there is enough mileage in it. But,the idea of having a conclusive (a close or two across the line with good separation perhaps) trend line break and re-test is a great way to keep you on the right side of the market

Just a small correction a transaction is generally known as a 'tick' or a 'print' (from the old paper tape days) this can be for more than 1 contract the volume would be the number of contracts/shares/units of currency traded on that transaction. Markets can and do 'gap' (even intraday) thinner and more volatile markets tend to be more prone to it. You might want to have a read up on auction markets and bid ask spread (any time that's more than a tick wide you have a good chance of a 'gap'). Oh by the way tick in that context is the minimum price movement for the instrument. There's not that much Jargon in trading but worth getting to grips with the basics

I've only messed about with it. Its fine for drawing S/R on currency charts. I tend to use 20min and 4 hour bars. Occasionally I look at faster charts or hourlies. Seems to be some interesting studies for it but when I do use it I use it fairly plain. Seems well supported for user generated stuff. Order entry and manipulation is pretty horrendous (imho) don't think I could ever get tempted into using it for that.

Oh dear the peasants are revolting

Most of the 'meat and potatoes' of the discussion went on on the 'Trade Intensity' thread. Seek that out and I think you will find most of your questions answered

Yeah mea culpa. Hope you guys know I pretty much agree about TG. Now I have worn myself out with all this arguing, time for a nap I think or maybe a beer. I hope no one took offence that was not my intention:)

Rigel what is your point? What am I deluding myself about? That this is the wrong thread for this discussion? Or maybe that TG and VSA are completely interlinked? Thats Odd I 'learnt' VSA before Tradeguider existed without sight of any software and when Gavin Holmes was probably still a double glazing salesman (or maybe unborn who knows). Just because you can not separate VSA Tradeguider and Whycoff in your mind does not mean that they are inseparable. Calling me delusional is an ad hominen form of reasoning it does not advance your argument. (It's also laughable as i have already said I largely agree with the point, a conclusion can still be true despite the argument being fallacious). TG are pretty much a waste of space imo but that is just that....an opinion. I agree remove VSA and TG could not exist in its current form. This however does not in any way imply that VSA can not exist without tradeguider. There is no causality in that direction. If TG go bust tomorrow VSA Whyckoff and supply and demand will continue to 'exist' as phenomena. What I am arguing against is sloppy thinking, imprecise reasoning and emotionally made points rather than more objective rational arguments. I do actually agree with the sentiment but it is just that ...sentiment.

Well you seem to have posting charts and trading down to a fine art. I wonder if GENZ gave you a re-entry? Looked a bit like a shakeout to me. Guess with everything down from round that time thats unlikely

I hope you don't take the church comments too personally (what with you being the high priest hehehe) (or seriously for that matter) I sometimes forget the emoticon. It is meant to be good natured, what you do in the W corner is a real credit to the forum. I can't really disagree with too much you have said. I rather admire Williams search for some sort of computerised 'solution' to buying and selling pressure and certain formations (climaxes tests etc.) I think the cause is noble even if so far the results are .....well lets say questionable. (He still searches independantly of tradeguider incidentally). I seem to remember you having an interest a long time back even taking time to email them with suggestions and what not. I remember you being dissatisfied with the replies and concluding it was an opportunity missed. The one thing I would perhaps disagree with is about the mention of TG, it is pretty minimal in these threads every now and then there is a flurry like this (must be over a year since the last one) it lasts a couple of days and a couple of dozen posts no big deal really. Most of the time its just people posting charts and asking questions. Very seldom is one posted from TG (the software). Maybe I just like an argument now and then (no offence monad) I would much rather be on the 'anti' team though. Perhaps with slightly more formal forum guidelines and less tolerance of 'spam' fewer tradeguider posts (pro or con) will be allowed to remain? Really it's not that big a deal. It's a double edged sword....on the plus side it does bring people to the forum and the chances are if they become frustrated with VSA they will end up visiting the Whyckoff corner. One thing that can be said about Gavin is he seems to be a decent marketeer and whilst often full of it not of the absolutely worse sort.

Eidt this was @ monad rather than DB VSA and Whyckoffs work share common principles and a degree of synergy. Tradeguider is a company that sells stuff. It's like saying Walmart and bananas are intertwined. Anyway it's the conclusions you draw from these 'facts' that you need to be careful of. Lets accept they are intertwined for the moment (I do not) that proves ............ what exactly? (maybe read the link at the end before replying). Lets further say that TG is a waste of space what does that tell you about VSA or W? Nothing unless you argue that there is some causal relationship back from TG -> W/VSA. My main point is there is a thread specifically to discuss the 'phillisophical' pros and cons of VSA, W or whatever else (candles if you like) this thread is about the practical application of VSA. It is no secret that I am friends with Sebastian. I met him a couple of years ago and as I quite often visit the island where he lives we hook up now and then. Suffice it to say if I thought he was of dubious character (like *cough* GH) I would not. Nothing to do with loyalty really but again irrelevant to any rational argument about VSA. I simply pointed out that he was quite revered here until he did work for TG. Not surprising sleeping with the enemy I suppose My favourite page on logical fallacies seems to have gone but you might find this interesting Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Its actually not a bad description, I think Wikipedia is often unfairly maligned.

It's one I think I would probably have been in two minds about too. There had been a significant LL however the overall action was narrowing kind of pennant like. That in itself would have made me wary. Guess I should thing about changing some holiday money!

No that is a logical fallacy completely and utterly. Just because TG sell product based on VSA does not mean they are VSA. Of course they try to imply they are. Buy the Undeclared, Secrets (not from TG) read it, discuss it here, never have a single thing to do with Tradeguider. No need to isolate TG they need not exist in any discussion of VSA. Forget them. In fact that is the advice that is frequently given out on these threads. You actually strengthen their credibility by referring to TG and VSA as if they are the same thing. I bet Gavin loves you guys. Look, I have been one of the biggest and most vocal critics of TG and 'professional trader and god emperor GH'. It just has no place on this thread unless you want to destroy something that has gone on for years and tens if not hundreds of thousands of posts. There is a seperate thread for this discussion. Take it there. Oh and the personal challenges should go via PM. personally I don't want to read it. I know what TG are and what there business model is. You would need to be a fool not too. Of course I guess I will still be labelled a TG fan despite actually sharing the recently expressed views. I don't think I have seen a greater collection of logical fallacies in one place. Ad hominen attacks, whether Seb (or GH or TG or anyone else for that matter) can read the right hand edge is irrelevant to the credibility of VSA (of course it is crucial to the credibility of TG). Non Sequitor, denying the antecedent, and post hoc ergo propter hoc... The whole idea that W is based on supply and demand and that VSA is based W / supply demand (people change this to suit there argument). What is based on what and which order it came in has absolutely no place in an argument on the validity of VSA. If you think VSA and TG are synonymous take it to the 'VSA crock or not' thread even if you don't take it there anyway. If you want to wail on TG start a thread. Here is not an appropriate place to discuss it. These posts should be moved it was made quite clear this sort of posting would not be tolerated the last time that this thread was invaded by the church of Whyckoff and the one true way zealots. I find it amusing that before Seb did odd bits of work for TG he was quite revered here for the numerous videos and charts he posted and the real time insight he provided. They are still as good material on the subject that you will find. Gotta laugh really. Mind you I always thought it unwise doing a deal with the devil (TG) but understand why he did it. In short I agree with you guys it's just that this is not the place to rant and rave. here is http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f222/vsa-crock-not-3736.html

Did you concider a long the break out of the double top a wee bit past the 14.58 time stamp?

Quick question TT. Those first two sells Are into yesterdays low and what might be considered support (dotted red line). Would that be your initial target? Maybe with an exit there and re-entry when it broke. Or conversely where you bearish anyway?

Where VSA has attempted to go 'beyond' Whycoff is in the quantification of 'effort' (V) and result (S). Or buying/selling pressure if you prefer. Imho it is the attempt to (reasonably objectively) quantify some key W ideas that is the value of VSA. In reality of course there are no absolutes, however most people work better within a 'framework'. There is (or can be) a great deal of synergy with W (as you would expect) provided you don't get caught up in the dogma. VSA does provide a reasonably consistent framework however when people like GH apply it inconsistantly that benefit is diluted. For example when something 'fails' (which lets face it happens) that is a powerful message, time to close or reverse. If you spend your time looking for an 'excuse' why it failed you can miss the key information the market is giving you. I watched one of GH's recent promos and I thought he was much better....only goes to show how bad he was a year ago. There is still a tendency for him to look at other time frames in inappropriate ways, that's another story.

Beware USTDTSM have a few typos and errata. (Might be corrected in later editions). If you find yourself reading a passage and thinking 'hmm that doesn't make sense' it could be that "buyers" should read "sellers", there is also the odd mis labelled bar on a chart here and there. It's still the best source (and probably all you need).

I always find it helpful to separate Tradeguider the 'organisation that sells stuff' from VSA the 'methodology for judging buying and selling pressure'. I have a pretty clear opinion of the former that I have voiced here before, re stating it serves little purpose, as always buyer beware. As for the latter....well it's up to individuals to decide for themselves whether it works for them. I would remind people that to judge the efficacy of a method you need to look at the method (though it is natural to be inquisitive about the practitioner). It is possible to learn VSA without having anything to do with TG. Having said all that on numerous occasions Seb has posted to these threads analysis for the following days open based on the previous days close. They have been pretty decent imo.

The answer to 1) is no. In spot FX the volume information is not reported. In fact bid ask changes are what is reported as a proxy for volume. So if bid decreases by 100,000 it is assumed by currency data providers that 100,000 units of currency have been bought at the bid price.

Depends on your perspective. I took a couple of days off as I frequently do and thought it had got rather busy in my absence!

Here's one I found interesting Stock Investing Tools - Stock Investment Tools - Stocks Investment Strategy - Mutual Funds - SIA 20 minutes delayed but offers P&F charts!

Why not contribute something to the thread? Maybe a chart or an observation, even a question would do. Stimulate conversation and you would not need to bump it. :) Maybe I am just getting old and intolerant but at the end of the day spam will never be ham and that was just spam.

I think the rumblings are end of this month, but of course I might be mistaken and milestones slip of course.

Still excitedly awaiting "Introduction to NinjaTrader 7.xx beta" :D I hear its imminent now? (NT 7 rather than the education)