BlowFish

Ahh OK I guess I am a bit of a 'closet bar room' philosopher. While I would never assume that my thoughts where original I am a little surprised to find that there is a 'school of thought'. Whether this adds credibility (or indeed diminishes it) I am not sure. It seems reasonable from my own observations. Anyway thanks for pointing that out time to head over to Wikipedia to check these guys out I guess.

I cant help wondering if it is difficult to learn things because of limiting beliefs. I am looking forward to reading the Carol Dwek book. A friend recommended it before I saw it reviewed here. From what I understand here main premise is that fixed mindsets (akin to limiting beliefs I guess) is what holds us back and that ...err...I think she calls them 'growth mindsets' allow great things. Forgive me I haven't read it yet. Anyway look forward to the next Ahha moment and enjoy working towards that :-) It would be interesting to know if something did change in your thinking that allowed you to 'get it'?

I guess I am a terrible cynic but I think the reason anyone does anything is essentially selfish. There is nothing wrong with being selfish imo. Put another way people do things for others because it makes them feel good. Or as has been said they hope to learn something through the exchange (self interest). Or they just want to 'show off' (look at me aren't I clever). I think even when we do things for our children or loved ones it is because when they feel good we feel good (so a selfish action even if for another). Even when we do things out of a sense of responsibility or guilt it is to assuage feelings within ourselves. btw Isn't a speculator simply someone that assumes risk for a potential reward. Not quite sure how that fits in (yet). Personally I always wanted to be hugely succesful at trading (10's or even 100's of millions). Apart from satisfying my Ego I'd really like to make a big difference in the world (money affords that opportunity). The reason? to make me feel good. (Who wouldn't feel good about improving society?) Personally I see no conflict between altruism and selfishness.

Hi Steph, You may have already recognised something important (sounds like you are well on the way). That is that succesful trading has little to do with depth of technical knowledge. Of course some basics are handy but that is not the key factor.

Ive been messing round with some VSA indicators. Sometimes I think they are helpful other times I think just plain charts with volume and nothing else may be the way to go. heres a snap I just took.

I wonder this myself and asked somewhere else. As this thread is fresh I will post here It is my view if you pick up one nuance that helps your trading it would be worthwhile however I would also be interested if it offers real value? Cheers.

Thanks for the link Rolange (is that an anagram it sort of resound in my head as Lo Range and no I am not oriental). I think Ego is a pretty huge chunk of it. That and of course fear (which seems like a huge umbrella emotion for most trader ailments). Cheers,

This reminds me of a thread I keep meaning to start somewhere about R:R (not sure where yet maybe on Van Tharpes forums). It is very much in the 'concept' stage and may well lead to a dead end. It is my contention that one way of viewing R:R is as changing with every uptick/downtick, as the relative distance to stop and target change. Certainly it seems to me if you enter with a 1 point stop and price moves 1 point in your favour you essentially have more at risk at that point in time. (lets allow open equity to be included) Further more if you have a fixed target of say 3 points when you open the position now this will be 2 points to target from the current price. Essential you start with 1:3 but some way into the trade you are now 1:1. Anyway I don't want to go into much here as it is hardly anything to do with WRB's but i cant help wondering if re-assesing RR through the life of a trade might help improve results? The underlying idea seems intuitively correct but I am not sure how it could be used to improve results. Maybe as the basis of a trailing stop methodology.

Great catch Cooter. Thank you. I do think your interpretation may be a wee bit off but great observation. (I am not sure yet I haven't thought about it enough). I think it is at least partly do to with the 'work ethic' you get as a youngster. You know the whole 'renumeration is commensurate with the time and effort you put in' thing. I wonder if deep down I still feel guilt that the days business is over in an hour or two (or can be)?? Actually I often trade the Europe open. 1.00pm gmt news (if there is any) US open and sometimes the US afternoon session. Its lucky that Asia doesn't really open until gone midnight my time or I'd probably trade that. I think I trade long hours because I love watching the markets unfold. However, It is almost certainly also because I feel a little guilty that I am not working hard enough (sometimes at least). I do certainly work hard, in the past way too hard. Sometimes (in the past) 18 hours a day seven days a week for a months at a time. I realise now I was working hard but not smart. Certainly not all bad as I have built up a good amount of knowledge about the markets and how they work. Also a set of beliefs that I sincerely think are based on fundamental truths. You certainly reach a point where more market knowledge isn't going to help you as a trader but I still enjoy spending time learning that stuff. Recently my energy is more directed at 'self' and my working hours are much more reasonable too! (see above for details) One thing is for sure I am passionate about trading. I guess I am trying to say I am not lazy or undereducated when it comes to trading. I am still not sure why I wrote the phrase you picked up on like that. Whenever friends and family call I will tell them I'm working but at the same time it sometimes does not always feel like work. I could say that it is more than work its a vocation a passion even, but people might gag on there breakfirst cereal if I did that. And a final thought. Maybe I'm a little embarrassed to refer to myself as a trader. I know I am not doing as well as I should at the thing I am passionate about, the thing I have poured blood sweat and tears into. The thing I have worked so hard at. And this neatly links back into the thrust of my original post. Cheers.

There's your answer. Just forget those 10 pointers. Or at least trade them with a separate version of the plan. i think Ninja allows 2 completely seperate strategies from the same entry. Then I guess those 2-3 day straight up moves will start looking appealing eh?

If you want more XX's increase size as your equity grows. I'm sure you know this of course .

Hi jerry, I did have an inkling where you where coming from . Actually there are certainly a whole bunch of ducks that must line up before making it. Dealing with losing trades and equity draw down is perhaps one of the toughest 'ducks'. In support of your view it is surprising how many of the market wizards reported wiping out before making it (Schwager). Actually what is more surprising (and kind of scary) is how many have subsequently wiped out (since the books where published). Cheers.

Can easily or do easily? Its easy to see how you could with hindsight. What does your trading plan say? I suspect from how you have been talking you are winging it (deviating from your plan). Is it a "mental thing" or more of a "change my plan half way through type thing"? You will want a set of rules for each type of trade. And you know for those 10 point trades trailing a 2 point stop isn't going to catch all of them (it may get one once in a while). Quite a few will go +2 3 4 or even more before coming back to close to your initial entry to re-test supply/demand then they'll take off. Others will go half way and then correct before the final 'leg'. Are you going to sit through all those? Most people would be delighted with catching a few 2 or 3 pointers each week most would be delighted catching a 10 pointer each week. With proper use of capital you could pretty much take what you wanted from the markets. Another 'btw' - on days like last Thursday (from memory) going for those 2-3 pointers (if the S&P was anything like the Russel or DAX) generated way way more than 10 points. I can see a lot of your hard work been wasted which would be a shame. Again I speak from bitter experience, I have wasted so so much time and energy only to end up 6 months later right where I started again when plan B turned out not to be the holy grail.

I'm not sure I can buy into that Jerry. Depending on your beliefs, attachments to money and a variety of other things you could do pretty serious damage to the psyche. There are not many endeavours that don't benefit from a little bit of basic instruction before jumping in. There are many that are likely to end up fatal. When you 'come back' do you think it is easier having wiped out? There's an old adage about a person not being a great horesewoman until they have been thrown (thrown as opposed to falling off). Getting up without any instruction and trying to get yourself thrown will not make you a great rider when you get back in the saddle again - that's if you even summon up the courage. Cheers.

Be interested to hear what the doc says but I think we have it covered. Many people have said the same thing in different ways. Essentialy, You can't have it all. You need to know what moves you are trying to capture and stick to hunting them. While it seems you accept this at one level you are clearly resistant to the idea. (forgive me for becoming more blunt as you repeat the question ) Perhaps the question you need to be asking is why am I seeking 'perfection' in a place it can not be found (my plan) rather than a place it can be found (how I execute my plan). Well this is what I suspect having been down that particlar never ending path. Ask yourself better questions and you will get better answers.

Well I thought Id get in quick and jump into the Docs chair. I think I am reasonably far along the path of a trader but there are a few things I would like to improve. The main one is closing trades before they can work properly. Sometimes I might hesitate entering but that is rarer. Managing trades would be the umberella term. I think this is routed in fear - fear of being wrong probably more than fear of loseing capital on the trade. I think this is in part due to trying to seek some sort of validation in the market. I absolutely know I could do much better (though I am profitable). This is efecting my sense of self worth despite everything being pretty lined up in the rest of my life. Its frustrating to know the very subconcious things that think they are helping are the only obstacles to a job well done. (And really a job well done is more of a motivator than the $$). When I worked I was respected (and renumerated) for my views and my knowledge. Of course the market dosent give a cr*p about my views or knowledge - not a great background for a trader! I guess this is something to do with it and is rooted in the ego needing stroking. Yeah yeah I know if I executed flawlessly then I would actually deserve a pat on the back. The problem manfests itself almost completely subconciously...it sudenlly grabs the reins and clicks to close. Its almost like I conciously black out for a moment. I am sure 'it' thinks its trying to protect me but of course we all know thats not the case. I am trying enormously hard to confront this and have been doing better staying 'concious' for longer. I trade pretty short time frames as ths minimises the effect of the malaise. I'd actually like to pick time frame by preference rather than have it dictated by a trading fault!! Anyway I hope that this is of interest to you and other potential patients. I look forward to your thoughts. Cheers. Nick

A little side question....Walter have you studied Drummonds stuff? Im not trading point and line but it is a remarkable body of work. The multiple time frame stuff is mind blowing.

There is another alternative and that is that it just might not be true or the point that the person is trying to get across is just too vague or poorly defined to start with. I think some traders process market information subconciously and honestly dont know exactly how they are doing it. Cheers.

Your ahead of the game finding your way here. There are many BS forums around with all sorts of hucksters and snake oil salesmen waiting to snare the unwary. In some ways I am envious, must be great to be starting off with a blank slate. Of course as others have pointed out the flipside is you have a lot of work ahead of you. The thing to do is to get a solid set of beliefs (preferably before you damage yourself in the markets). Some say that the damage is all part of the process, I dont think that is the case. Douglas tackles a couple of important beliefs. Reminisances of a Stock operator will stand you in good stead too. Thats probably one to read a dozen times. There is lot of good imformation about but there is a lot of dubious stuff too. Again until you have a good grasp of market 'reality' and a solid belief system to protect you there is a distinct possibility you may get sidelined by some of this stuff. At best it will simply waste some time at worse it may plant seeds that are not based on market 'reality'. Be really careful about which paths you take - of course this is a bit of a catch 22 as just starting out are in no position to judge. On the subject of indicators understand exactly how they are calculated, exactly what they are designed to show and hence how they 'work'. I'm loathe to give specific advice but indicators are simply tools. Decide what you want to achieve then pick the indicator. I threw all mine out years ago so probably am not the best to comment. I would say that most are derivatives of price so I decided to focus on that (price) instead. You might want to learn some of the fundamentals of 'price action' I think I can safely say that would not be time wasted. There are several key elements to trading the 'technicals' are probably least important ...but Im all typed out for now. Cheers.

My personal favourites are Using the bars themsleves - simply using higher highs and higher lows. Breaking previous swing high swing lows to signal a reverse or continuation of trend. Instantaneous no need for indicators once you look at enough charts you can see shifts in momentum and other nuances. Basic trend lines - a break signifies a change in trend (might only be to sideways). I know a couple of scalpers that use nothing more than trend lines on constant tick charts. If you want to be adventurous draw a parallel to give you targets. Floor Pivots - above the PP trend is up below down. For your time frame try using the previous hours or 30 minutes (H+L+C)/3 rather than the daily. Dosent come easier than that and is often spookily accurate in how price 'obeys' them. If price is 'too far' from the line trade the journey back to it. Or you could use a 3rd order polynomial oscillator crossing 1.5 standard deviations from its apex. :-) Cheers.

Just a couple of things. Firstly If you want to catch those 20 point moves you'll probably end up being stopped out of a lot more on those 2 pointers. It will require different approaches and more importantly knowledge when to apply each. Sometimes you will apply one where the other would work and vice versa. I guess this is one of the reasons people take half off and ride half. Secondly (and this is something I really empathise with as I am prone to it too) don't over intellectualise. Sure view it as a game but like any game you can not win every hand/round/match. As I say, I speak from bitter experience but trading can actually be very simple once you get an idea of market 'strcture' and mechanics. I think we are all prone to overcomplicate things. I'm not sure if I ever mentioned Eddie Toppels book "Zen in the Markets". You can easily read it in a couple of hours (which I do now and then if I feel I am over intellectualising or looking for 'perfection'). Its his contention that it is the ego at the back of all this. Sure push yourself but there comes a time where a better read of the charts provides diminishing returns compared to looking inwards and improving things there. Well thats my case anyway. Cheers, btw there are some real pearls of wisdom in the last dozen or so posts. This really is a quality venue.

A bit more on the charts you posted. To me the WRB actually confirmed the direction as up punching through resistance to the left. How ever you placed that resistance the consolidation was sitting on top of it (now support). It really depends on what you are trying to capture.

Any chance of posting those charts with volume? Did you get another entry signal to get you long again? Then closing after the WRB would not have mattered too much. Finally in answer to your question to PP the key things (IMO) are:- 1) Background strength weakness - not easy to determine without a 'full blown' VSA analysis. 2) S/R - are you in an area where you might expect a trend to end or pause? - nothing to do with VSA directly. 3) 'Climatic' volume. - you may be able to use a quick and dirty yes/no value for this but (IMO again) it is unreliable on its own. It is actually one of the trickiest bits of VSA to determine if you have enough volume to stop a trend and start accumulation/distribution or simply to cause a pause. Subsequent signs of strength weakness will confirm or deny whether it is. Just some ideas. Cheers.

The guys I had in mind where Point & Figures DLL Pierre Orphin and SnapDragon Systems Limited Adam Hartley I have never used them there porducts or services but they offer a standard P&F solution for tradestation that they may modify for you as they do bespoke too. I also came across some metastock code that might possibly be converted. I'll search for the link later. Also There are also a couple of people that do inexpensive standalone P&F software they tend to read data from ascii or metastock files (I.e. no real time data feed) maybe they might include volume by request? The more I think about it the more I like the idea of what you are trying to visualise though Id go with colors myself :-) Cheers.

Oh btw I am guessing that English might not be your first language but by saying that you are still 'looking for constructive help' it kind of implies that the help you are getting is not constructive. This is not the best way to get people to continue to assist you. Cheers. Edited to add smilies don't wanna stir anything up :):):):)