Emotion

I totally agree with you! As for the Gann Angles, you should see it as a possible tool as I pointed out above to have some direction for your stoploss but it has no value in the course of projecting any future highs or moves... People shouldn't think everything Gann describes as "holy grails" or magic, most of it are just tools to make some sence / give a description to what has happend... For example a stock moves and it stays constantly above that Gann Angle so you can say it is in an uptrend...simple no magic no value...but by using it you and everyone can make up the same conclusion that it is in an uptrend from the point where you draw the Gann Angle...has it any value...it's the same observation as you can say someone rides away from me, why because from my point of view he gets smaller and smaller...yes, true observation, has it any value??? And that whole astrology, I totally agree that he wrote that book to get everyone on the wrong foot before he died! In all is early work he didn't even mention astrology, while its said that he made good money in his early years....

If you think you can do it or think you can't do it, YOU are right!!! - Henry Ford My favourite quote! So if think it isn't possible you will NEVER make it and you should stop! About the movies, it was funny to see how those cheaters where losing when they came to world of hard working people! Pit trading in my opinion is just a way of cheating, as some in the movie said also, if you had good friend in the pit you got good fills, by seeing the faces and emotion from the other guys around you, you could have such a great advantage by reading the emotions and having better fills because of your friends in the pit. And whay do you see, those guys got angry because they couldn't cheat anymore but got their fills based on first-in-first-served as anyone else a more honest approach :haha: And the big evel computers got the blame, while they where cheating, so yes I loved this movie! Burn pit traders burn, always had the possibility to make a lot of money without the hard work! Yes, you can't trade for the difference between the ask and bid anymore without high performance and fast computers anymore! But you can still trade as the people outside the pit have done for centuries, did you think those guys outside the pit had any chance before on making money in the small difference of the ask and the bid? No, only the pit cheaters could do it! But comming to your question, can it be done? You see yourself as a starter, so trade the NQ future contracts, an easy start. Watch it and look if you could make with one trade a day, only one! Look if you could make with that one trade only 4 ticks! Yes, it is hard looking to the chart the whole day only looking for 1 perfect trade for only 4 ticks of profit. But do you think someone could do that? Do you think you could do it? It is just looking for human behaviour, which you can devide into a setup which results in forecasting human behaviour, in trading terms called a pattern. Look for one pattern that you see occur multiple times a day and watch when it fails and when it succeeds! And then trade it! 4 ticks is $20 but when you trade 30 contracts you make $600 a day... So the question is can you take only 1 winning trade of 4 ticks a day? Yes, you can live as a trader - No, you should do more research and think about Henry Ford!

Zdo, difficult to say...why is that, because I am a point and figure man myself. And with PnF we take time out of the equation... What is a response to Tikanman too... Yes, Gann was a time believer, for Gann time was everything, everything Gann worked on is based on time. He believed he could not only predict targets, but he believed he could also predict when those targets would be reached... Coming back to the rising lines "time stop", within PnF we tend to draw a 45 degree angle from the bottom of a new trend and with each new column (price movement) within that trend we expect te price to stay one box higher than the low of the previous column. So we don't say with each time period we expect a higher price, but within each price movement we expect higher prices to be interested to stay in the trade... So you see Wyckoff and Gann both agreed on drawing climbing lines to keep interesting in a trade! As Gann says why putting your money at risk or loan it to someone if you don't expect a return for it! No profit no interest Both say even prices = no interest! It seems so obvious but thinking about it gives you a nice idea about what to do with your stop loss...there are a lot of strategies and theories about stop losses, but always think about Wyckoff and Gann at those moments: no profit = no interest

Are there people around who use P&F charts for day trading futures like ES or NQ?

One of the most important things that I learned from Gann is that he makes time relevant. He said that it is only interesting to be in a stock when you can expect a profit for the amount of time that you are in a stock. He makes time a very important factor in your trading. If there is no profit for a specific amount of time there is no reason to be in the stock. So you should be able to draw a line under each trade you make with a specific angle that would be your profit line, or in other words your stoploss. It's always a difficult question to where to put you stoplos, Gann says it depends on the amount of profit you prefer on a specific period of time. Simple but clever! And so he has multiple simple eye openers, interesting dude!

Not the biggest community but the quality and value of the posts are very high! Except for this thread :doh:

You are not getting the point that is made in this thread!!! Nobody is telling you that it is impossible to make money trading the ES! All we are saying is that if you CAN make money in the ES you can probably make MORE and EASIER, trading other future markets!

Most people who start trading futures start with the YM because its only $5 a point but most of them you see switching very fast to the ES why? Because all over the Internet everyone only talks about the ES this and ES that. Its the big boys place to be and so on. So people would love to belong to the big boys and think when I can make a profit out of the ES I am a BIG boy... What's the real reason most people stick with the ES, because it's a very hard fight to make any money and they don't have the energy to look around anymore, they got stuck and frustrated (even when they make money). But to be honest the ES sucks :haha: Yes I can make money in it, it's a big battle but I do! But why should I put my money in the ES, what good reason is there?!? Why fight my battle in a market with such a small range a day, with just a couple of good setups (the ones I look for) that you shouldn't mis otherwise you wouldn't make money that day! Why not fighting your battle on other markets with a much wider range, and one that gives you your setup multiple times a day, missing one doesn't matter because there will be a dosen of them in the remaining day! Enough oppertunities to make/loose money:) and a good possibility to recover! And I am not talking about trades of 4 ticks, I am talking of trades where I take with ease 14 ticks multiple times a day! And what about big volumes?! Every one starts with one contract and as soon as they make more money you will add up, add the time you get to volumes that are to big to get a good fill you just scale up in the timeframe and then you can put in bigger volumes because you a tick more or less wouldn't matter anymore because you play bigger moves. The only reason I can think of that people aren't playing other future markets is because they sound scary, people haven't tried them! I have seen multiple people who had a hard time to survive in the ES and moved over to other contracts made money without a problem because the moves are bigger and their setups occur more often!