AmCan1

Thanks for that bathrobe. I can see what you mean with the ES. I have approached the ES in the past, with a similar method/way of trading. Personally, I don't really like the ES. I rather trade the other eminis. So many times I have hit my projected target, only to wait in a long cue to get filled. Then the price backs off 3 or 4 ticks, and now what? I hate that dilemma. It is such a thick market. I don't like the 1/4 point ticks either because of what I just said. That's not to say it can't be accounted for or traded profitably. It obviously can be. I just don't want to deal with that extra layer of complexity. I could trade other markets and get filled easier and with less slippage. That's just my view and I'm sure there are many who will disagree.

Thanks for the links. I'll appreciate it and will check it out.

That's great PA18. Yes, the renko bars look great. I'm sure after getting used to them, one could really come up with a solid tradeplan. Incidentally, my 233 tick trades did quite well today too. Four trades; 1 full winner, one loss that stopped and reversed into a trade that got a partial winner. I've attached a chart for you in case you're interested. It was a good session from a win/loss percentage point of view. Net pips gained was decent too, +67. My 4th trade was similar to what I showed you in the prior chart where I had a chance to add on to my position. That 2nd entry didn't really take off this time but my trade mgt plan still allowed me to grab 5 pips per the two positions for an additional 10 pips.

Weed, whether brokers do that or not (I've heard many horror stories whether real or just perceived to be real) I think you missed the point. In my view, since fx is not a centralized market, I think swing trading is a better approach. You also need to account for spread costs which will be a much smaller percentage of the overall trade profile with a swing trade than a day trade. I would prefer to daytrade currency futures. At least, that is what I am finding success in. That's just me, and that's what makes a market no? I do this, you do that? Whether a broker takes out my stop or not, is what it is. (Or isn't). I can gain greater control though with larger time frame trades vs smaller time frame trades. That's just logical. And yes, I am for real.

I see. Well looking at the higher timeframes help. Alexander Elder ("Trading for a Living") talks alot about identifying the trend on a time frame 3 x higher than the chart you are trading, and then taking trades in the direction of the higher time frame trend. One thing you could look for is a 3rd or even better, 4th attempt at a resistance level. If you can find a resistance level that has failed a few times, and then watch as the price comes up to retest it again, perhaps the breakout on that 4th attempt will give you higher odds of succeeding to the long side, but if you just want to reverse, at least it might clue you into not taking the reversal when that happens. You might not take as many trades but you'll be trading for quality vs. quantity. It would be fairly easy to backtest that idea too. Contrarily, perhaps the first or 2nd time a level is hit, you would fade, which I realize, is what you want to do. You could look at a linear regression on the higher timeframe. There are some good custom stochastic settings and macd settings, and of course the obvious MA's that people use, but the problem is that most, if not all indicators, lag the market. It's also easier to interpret them after the fact but hard in real time. Trends can change before the indicator catches up. Or the indicator signals a change in trend that has already happened and now it might be ready to turn again. If its too sensitive it will give you a lot of false signals and if its too loose, it will be Johnnie-come-lately. If it is just right, then it will only be just right for a short time, as markets always shift and change. So you have to consider them as just one piece of the puzzle but don't give too much weight to them. Also, you could look for volume on the breakout. A breakout on declining volume might indicate a false move or headfake, if you will, and perhaps that's what you need to clue you in on a reversal trade. But a breakout on increasing volume should indicate a real move perhaps you would avoid those. You could also watch correlated markets to see if another market is leading the charge (or decline). It's not always the ES. Sometimes the NQ will lead. Or the YM. Maybe even a heavily weighted stock. Hope that helps. Keep in mind, nothing is guaranteed but anything you can do to put the odds in your favor while keeping your risk well managed should give you an edge, and a positive result over time.

I think Boomerangas makes an excellent point. I would also add that if the price comes up, after failing on three attempts, the 4th attempt might give you better odds that the level will finally be broken and the uptrend will resume. Of course, nothing is 100% certain but I like those odds most of the time.

I can relate to your question and to your way of trading. I used to have a lot of success fading markets but like you said, on a strong trend day you can really get bit. What I learned was that a reversal trade should be teamed up with some other types of setups too, so you can take advantage of the current market condition. I wound up giving back a lot of hard earned gains by trying to fade a charging market. No indicator will give you the crystal ball information you seek. If it were that easy, it wouldn't be legal, right? You have to be the federal government for the right to print money. I ended up arming myself with different setups. I teamed my reversal trades with a breakout trade, a continuation trade and the willingness to stop and reverse based on the rules to my tradeplan. I went out and learned about dynamic trade systems that tune themselves to market conditions based on price action. Now if I get in a reversal long for example, and that trade fails, I'll get a short setup that will cut my losses on the long reversal and will get me short for a high percentage chance of succeeding. It's all about living on the right edge of the chart. Best to not be one dimensional, in my view.

For what it's worth, I trade currency futures every day. I also intend to trade the spot market and just opened an account with Oanda, which came highly recommended from an experienced trader friend of mine who only trades the spot market. I plan on using Tradestation charting to determine my trades though, since that's what I use for my futures trading. Since I'm daytrading the currency futures, I'll probably be swing trading the spot market. I figure the larger trades will give me a better chance of dodging my broker's interest of taking out my stops but also, will give me diversification.

Hey guys, how do I find out more about the two rooms you are referring to, Huddy and eminijunkies? Sounds interesting.

In my view, beginning traders should begin with the right mindset. Trading should be considered a business venture. I believe it is important to create a firm foundation for yourself prior to risking real money on real trades. You could get a mentor, and begin developing good trade habits. For me, after learning the very basics like what a long and short are, and proper risk management, I had to learn how to manually backtest. I learned the hard way before I had my lightbulb moment, the realization of the importance to backtesting. That changed everything for me. It helped put things in perspective as I learned about the relationship between wins, losses and the bigger picture; the equity curve itself. Imagine this: A winning strategy, one that wins 2/3 of the time, still can and will have a losing streak, possible 10 losses in a row, for example. That's enough to get most traders to quit - to throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's what inexperienced traders do, who haven't backtested and who don't understand the win/loss relationship of their trade system. The best trades follow the losses and after the beginner quits with his losses, the trader who adequately backtested has the confidence to understand that the winners will come and propel the equity curve to new profit levels. 10 losses in a row might be rare and extreme but it happens even to the best systems. But 4 losses in a row is enough to make most inexperienced traders quit, and yet the winniest systems get 4 losses in a row with regularity. Backtesting opens up your vision and if you take a businesslike approach, and realize that losses are apart of winning, you will be in a much better position to succeed.

JLJ, Another thing you can do is find yourself a good swing trading 'system.' There are some good ones out there. Don't spend a fortune on one though. The idea is to come up with a simple set of trade rules and then apply your rules to good swinging markets. You could take a look at your stock in question and look for setups in that stock that fit the rules of your swing trade system. Maybe you do have something but you might be surprised to learn that the best trade is a short not a buy. Or not. Swingtraders should be flexible enough to go both ways, no pun intended. The idea is, that if you have a hard and fast rule set, that gives you an edge in the market and puts the odds in your favor on every trade, then your biggest job will be to control your risk (take small position sizes as you build up your account because swing trades are larger and require more room to breath) and execute your tradeplan according to your system accurately. You'll lose some trades for sure, but that's ok. The edge of your system will take over and grow your account as you win more than you lose, so long as you keep your risk very small as it relates to your overall available trade capital. I hope that makes sense. Good luck!

Markl67, I used to trade in a similar fashion. I also used to love to fade when the market got close to obvious resistance. It worked great, until it didn't. What I have learned is that it is better to not do what the herd is doing and to try to trade original ideas and setups. Who wasn't trying to buy the breakout at 1100 on the ES? Well, I wasn't for one, but that's not my point. I rather trade for high percentage targets based on reliable trade setups. But then again, that's just me and that's what makes a market. Sometimes I get setups based on my trade method that seem very awkward. They either bump up against obvious s/r levels or I have to break through one to get to my calculated target. At first this was very difficult for me and it was easy to feel like that cliched to death, proverbial deer caught in the headlights of an oncoming car. Analysis paralysis will kill your trading. Still though, one must respect s/r levels, to some extent. I came up with hard and fast rules that have since worked very well for me. For one, if my entry is close to an s/r, I'll make a minor adjustment to get around it. I'm talking 1 to 3 ticks only. The reason is that headfakes happen all the time, and even an adjustement can get you triggered into a trade and still wind up losing, and with a slightly bigger loss, due to the adjustment. In the end, I came to realize that s/r levels are broken all the time. If not, there would only be sideways markets, right? So the easiest answer for me was this: Trade my plan. If I have a setup that forces a break of an s/r, I'm going to trust my system and take the trade. I know that my system puts the odds in my favor on every trade and it gives me a winning edge in the market. If 'this' trade loses, so what. 35% of all my trades lose anyway. I have to get through those to get to my 65% winners. If I am scared of a trade because of an s/r level, I will get hit by that oncoming car. Who knows if any trade will win or lose? No one. We have no control over that. All we can do is put the odds in our favor on every trade, trade our system as intended, and control our risk. That's it. Luckily, that's enough to prosper at this difficult business. So I guess that's a long winded way of saying, try something different.

Hey InGodsfavour, I'm always looking for a good traderoom to check out. Do you mind sharing info on the traderoom you speak of? I'm new to TL and hope that it is ok to share such info if a member asks, unsolicited. I think traderooms can help you if they're good but like anything else, you need to fully understand what they are doing. I don't mean just the trades they are calling but actually having some broader vision as to the edge that their trade system has over time. That is where the money is made, traderoom or not.

That's a great photo! Watch out Irma. Got some competition there. As I said earlier, sadly, I still only have 4 monitors. Two more would be great. I have two Nvidea cards, each one driving two monitors. By the way, it's also important to have an emergency back up plan. Here's mine.

Hard to argue with those two definitions. In my view, it is important to be very business minded and treat your trading as a very dangerous business. It requires precise and assertive action. Businesses do take time to become successful and that is normal and ok. Same with trading. If you are trading to make money, then your energy should be put into doing what it takes to create the plan that will, make you money. Then trade it accurately and objectively. Not easy to do if you are too emotionally involved with each individual trade. Emotions and objectivity do not go together. If you are struggling with getting successful as a trader (making money) chances are you are victim to some of the basic reasons that cause traders to fail: Undercapitalization, too much risk exposure (either per trade or per your plan or lack thereof), no effective plan, no confidence to follow your plan, scared money, need to be right, trading for the wrong reasons (something other than just to make money), lack of foundation, lack of practice, pennywise and pound foolish in regards to your 'tools of the trade'.. hmmm.. what else? Oh yeah, over trading. Not knowing when to quit, but that should be covered in your tradeplan. It's really not that long of a list yet any one of them will prevent a trader from succeeding. So solve all of them and you should be good to go.

Really great advice from everyone. This is why I love this site! I'm a fairly experienced trader but I always learn new things here or at least, find reaffirmation about very important trader wisdom. Most of it is common sense but as humans, we often forget common sense. One of the first things I learned in business what that you have to learn how to not lose money before you can learn how to make money. Same with trading. Losing a trade does't lead to losing money. In fact, it's the opposite. You have to trade through losses to get to your winners. What's important is to trade your plan accurately and make your money as the edge of your system works for you over time. Imagine if you are one of the lucky ones who has a trade method that wins 62% of the time. You have learned enough to know that you must control your risk appropriately. You should be able to be very successful with that formula. But, be at peace with the other side of the equation. You can't divorce yourself from the 38% of the trades that you are losing, or you will not get the 62% winners. They are integrally related. Joined at the hip! By losing the 38% of your trades side of the equation, in this scenario, you are making a fortune with the 12% edge your system is giving you as you trade it, day after day. That is common sense but it is too easy to forget when you are in the midst of your 3rd loss in a row, which by the way, is very, very common in this winning strategy's day to day routine.

This might sound kind of corny, but for me, I need to be solid as to 'why I am trading in the first place.' In my view, there is only one legit reason to trade and that is 'to make money.' Once I struggled for a good long while, I had to come full circle to see if my results might be due to having a different reason for trading then just, to make money. IMO, if you are truly trading just to make money, then the next logical question should be, 'What do I need to do to achieve that objective?' Again, IMO, you need to have a system that gives you a statistical edge in the market. Then you trade the edge of your system. Trades will win and lose but the edge of your system will make you money over time if you keep your risk at the proper levels. Then you will make money and achieve the reason for trading in the first place. I hope this doesn't sound too abstract or hokus pokus but it really does work if you have the confidence (and capital) to stay with your system and trade it accurately. If you don't have the confidence, go back to the initial question, why are you trading? No confidence = no money = 'you better stop trading' because you won't achieve your objective. To get confidence, again IMO, you have to backtest, backtest, backtest, so that you have enough vision to understand the EDGE of your system. Just like the casino, if you have an edge, than you have the 'house' odds on your side and that's where you will make your money and achieve the reason for trading. Rememer, we have no control over whether any trade will win or lose. All we have control over is the ability to put the odds in our favor on every trade, control our risk so that we don't blow out our account, and take the next trade as per our backtested tradeplan. As traders, what more can we do?

This is an interesting thread. It is talking about how to exit a trade, which in my humble view, is the 'artsiest' part of trading. One of the posters said that he doesn't want to scale out because it complicates his record keeping. No offence, but that seems like the wrong reason to make, what I would consider, a very important trade decision. If you want to simplify the record keeping, enter them as seperate trades. That's like saying, I don't want to backtest because it takes too long. I backtest a lot. I use tools to do so and track my trades in a way that give me meaningful results. Then I am in a better position to craft a tradeplan, which would include my means of exiting a trade. Typically, I'll exit at a fixed target that I have established as having good odds of achieving (based on my backtesting), and then I'll either go for an even larger fixed target on part of the remaining position and/or trail a stop with the rest. I use simple trailing stop strategies that are dynamic, not static. In other words, I want to work with the current market volatility vs. an artificial parameter that might not have anything to do with current market conditions. So for example, rather than trail a stop behind some sort of time limit (2 days back, for example), I will work around the current swings, or trail some sort of momentum indicator, or something like that. If I get bumped out of an extended move prematurely (lets face it, there's alwasys a tradeoff between a stop that is too tight and a stop that is too loose, and you'll never get it perfecty right every trade), then I'll look for some sort of chance to get back on board and renter the trade based on the rules that my very robust tradesystem allows for. I don't need to squeeze every pip or tick out of every move. I just want the high percentage meat and potatoes part of the move. I then post my trades in my spreadsheet and track my results so that I can fairly assess my trading, objectively. From that I learn, gain experience and confidence and my trade exits improve over time. One thing for sure is that I want to know how I will exit a trade before I even get into it. I also know that it will not be perfect and I am at peace with that.

Sounds like a good set up WorldTrader. I too use multiple computers in addition to my main trade computer with the 4 monitors. I have a mac to my right. I use that for research I may need to do in real time including the forexfactory.com news calendar, IM, emails and an excel spreadsheet for some custom stuff I use. I also have a couple laptops behind me that I use for trade related stuff, including webinars, trade rooms, iTunes, etc. Always a lot going on. My trade office looks like a space shuttle cockpit, lol..

Thanks for the links Bathrobe. I've bought from Tigerdirect before. They are very good. In fact, that's where I got my laptop for trading while traveling. My wife thought I was nuts when I packed a 22" monitor to take with it. lol.. Trying to trade with one monitor is like trying to win a one legged butt kicking contest - and you're the only one hopping around on one leg. Or to put it another way, would you try to compete in a Nascar race with a horse and buggy? The competition has the best tools. If you're a serious trader, it's wise to arm yourself with pro tools, imo. Trading is hard enough without having to deal with equipment handycaps.

Lol.. I hear ya on that. I'm that way too, actually. By the way, in case you were wondering, there's nothing magical about the 233 or 144 tick. Those are just fib numbers so I use them for that reason. Call me superstitious. One could look at any other tick 'time' frame if they wanted. I think the important thing is to try to find a sweet spot. In other words, look for a chart that has enough trades within the time you want to trade. A 233 might be too fast on the S&P, for example but too slow for soy beans. Make sense?

Oops.. Sorry about that. I was in a bit of a hurry when I wrote the last post and had intended to post up a screen shot. Now, with more time on my hands, I see that I mistyped some of my price levels in the last post. Here is a chart that I marked up to illustrate my trades. I color coded each one so you can easily see them distinctly. I also included a snapshot of my trade log so you can see the accurate price levels. You can see that there were some misprints. I accidentally read some stop numbers as entries, etc. The log is correct though and will correspond with the chart. Again, I like the 233 tick chart a lot. I also like a 144 tick but the setups can be too small sometimes. I put the arrows to mark up the set up bars and also to show you where my trailers came off (pink). In my log, I always post the time stamp of my set up bars and not the actual bar that triggers the entry. It's just the way I do it. If you have any questions, let me know.

Thanks Cutshot. I'll put up a chart and take a look. Today on the 233 tick I had some very nice trades. It was the total opposite of yesterday which was not good, at least during the time I like to trade. Today, I went long at 9:27 est at 110.56. I took my first position off at 110.70. I trailed my 2nd position up and exited at 110.92. While in that trade, I scaled in another two positions at 9:48, got filled at 110.50 (my entry was set at 110.46 and I felt nervous with the .50 level but that was my set up). That one worked out great too. I took my 1st position (3rd in the overall trade from the early entry) at 111.21. My trailing position I synced up with my original trailing position and took that off at the same price, 110.92. I then had a losing trade at 10:24, went long at 111.12 and wound up stopping and reversing at 10:38 where I went short at 111.14. I did the same thing on the way down as I did on the way up. I pulled my first position off at 110.71 and trailed my 2nd. I also scaled in another 2 positions at 11:03 at 110.69. I took that first position off at 110.36 I exited both trailers together at 110.86. All in all, a great morning for the 233 tick. I was done at that point. I am going to look at my strategy on the 6 range and see how would look. Thanks for the tip. Have a great weekend.

Great! Good ideas and funny stuff!! I find for my own trading that I have one main monitor in front of me with the chart or charts I am currently trading from. I use a 2nd monitor for my order entry. I use my other monitors for experimenting with new ideas. I watch other charts that in no way will influence my trade decisions based on the main monitor in front of me. But if I have a steady system that I like to trade with (I do), I'll want to informally see how it performs on other markets and timeframes. A 3rd and 4th monitor is ideal for that purpose. Or, I'll want to keep track of new trade ideas and see how they are progressing. I can quickly add arrows or other markings on my chart in real time for future review. Also, I use one with my spreadsheet (the trade tracking element to my trading) to input my trades and track my results. So... Maybe I have a lot going on but I've found a rhyme and reason that works for me. I agree with the white board idea, btw. I have a big one on my adjacent wall. I put quick reference stuff on there that I am too lazy to commit to memory. For example, futures contract month symbols, basic affirmation statements that help keep my head on straight, etc. I also keep a cheat sheet where I can quickly change decimals into fractions and vice versa for 30 yr TBond futures (again, too lazy to memorize the conversions..). I also agree with the compartmentalization that smaller monitors give you. I hadn't thought of that until you mentioned it but now that I think about it, I have to agree with that.

This forum seems very interesting to me. I'm a newbie to TL and have been exploring around. This thread caught my attention because I tend to be a very structured trader. I believe I have a good feel and instinct but I try to discount it as much as possible. My way of trading is to rely on my rules and my trade system. It seems this tool of yours, the UTA, could be very useful. Is there a way to account for some discretionary decisions though. As much as I try to stay the course and trade my system with discipline, there are still times that a little human intervention makes all the difference. Making adjustments around obvious support and resistance levels, for one. I would like a tool that allows me to track the statistical results of my discretionary decisions.