SIUYA

your questions and my two cents IN CAPITALS (Not that i am yelling)..... * Can any course substitute for a trader taking responsibility for their own trading results? NO * Can a trader succeed without having a written trading plan? YES... A TRADING PLAN OFFEN GIVES FORMALITY AND REAL THOUGHT TO A SYSTEM, BUT ITS NOT ESSENTIAL. SOME PEOPLE DONT HAVE AS MANY ISSUES AND ARE ABLE TO FUNCTION SUCESSFULLY WITHOUT A FORMAL PLAN * Is the absence of a written trading plan the "missing link" ? NO....BUT FOR MANY IT CRYSTALLIZES WHAT THEY THINK THEY DO.....AND WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DO (OFTEN THIS IS IN CONFLICT) * Does the "Support Industry" (set up to service the failing trader) really have the answers, given the so-called statistical failure rate of traders as 95% ? NO.....ITS A SUPPORT INDUSTRY, NOT AN ANSWERS INDUSTRY. EVEN UNIVERSITIES CANNOT MAKE YOU SUCCESSFUL, THEY ONLY OFFER YOU THE TOOLS AND EDUCATION. * Can the inability of traders to breakthrough and truly "trade for a living" be addressed by one $600 - $3500 - $7000 - course? NO * Is the true value of the material received by the trader reflected in the cost? OFTEN NOT, BUT ONE PERSONS IDEA OF VALUE DIFFERS TO THE NEXT....GENERALLY THERE IS PLENTY OF FREE INFO AROUND. SUPPORT AND A LEG UP TO THE NEXT LEVEL IS DIFFERENT * Can a trader really help themselves, through the application of home-grown and common garden consistency? YES....MOST STILL DONT DO THE HOMEWORK THOUGH. * Do traders coming into the industry really understand what "trading for a living" involves, and what kind of life "trading for a living" will actually deliver to them? NO.....MANY FALL FOR THE SALES PITCH AND THE DREAM....NO DIFFERENT TO ANY INDUSTRY....do you really need that extra special mop to help clean the floor, but wait, you have two for the price of one..... *Do would-be traders entering the industry possess the personality attributes and risk profile, suited to speculating in financial markets? MORE OFTEN NO......MOST RATIONAL HUMANS DONT....JUST AS MANY CANT RUN A MARATHON, OR AT LEAST DO IT SUCCESSFULLY. And some non-rhetorical questions: * Why do 95% of would-be traders fail to reach their goals, and indeed leave the industry with disappointment and busted accounts? LAZYNESS, LACK OF ABILITY, LACK OF CAPITAL ETC;....LIFE.... JUST AS MANY MUSICIANS NEVER MAKE A LIVING, WHY SHOULD THIS BE ANY DIFFERENT. * Why have these statistics stood for so long, given the massive support industry available to traders? THE SAME AS ANY OTHER INDUSTRY.....MANY BUSINESSES FAIL, MANY PRACTICING PROFESSIONALS ONLY SUCCEED AS THEY CHARGE BY THE HOUR, NOT BY THE RESULTS * Are "psychological issues" the real reason traders are failing? (I think that one is rhetorical ) ONE REASON OF MANY ... and my favorites: * Whatever happened to common sense? IT IS NOT COMMON, AND THEN COMMON SENSE IS OFTEN NOT REQUIRED TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN TRADING * Why is it traders can take responsibility for mowing the lawn, and paying the utility bills, but won't take responsibility for their own trading activity? MANY DONT...HAVE YOU SEEN THE STATE OF SOME PEOPLES HOUSES......YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO IGNORE A MESSY YARD, YOU CANT IGNORE AN ACCOUNT IN THE RED. * Why do traders think that if they just get the right entry/strategy/system and so on, that they will over come their problems with losing? Could it be that this is what is fed to them by an industry with a vested interest in keeping them thinking that? ASK THE BROKERS.....NOT THE HEAD SHRINKS * Why do traders take expensive courses, and attend expensive sessions with "counselors and coaches" (which I did to no avail) instead of trying the easy things, like writing out a strict approach, based on rules and situations? SOME WANT AN EASY FIX, OTHERS WANT SUPPORT FOR THE WORK THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE......MANY TOP EXECS ALSO HAVE COACHES TO HELP THEM PUSH THE EXTRA MILE * Why do traders jump from Equities to Indices, to Forex to Futures. eMinis, Options, and then try to scalp, then swing trade, then try another system and so on, instead of FOCUSING and COMMITTING to a WRITTEN PLAN with DETERMINATION and CONSISTENCY? SEE ALL THE ABOVE...... many people constantly look for answers and knowledge rather than practicing what they have learnt. There is reality and fantasy in every industry, and often the head can be buried in fantasy. Too often time is wasted looking for answers when you already have it.

I assume you are in the US.....so just as a side note. Not every other country has the attitude bigger is better in terms of share prices. For some reason Australia is often the opposite, and there were/are some big companies with small denominated share prices, but big market capitalisation. Often stocks here would do share splits in order to reduce the price of the share....eg; 10 for 1 to push the price from $30 per share to $3 per share......its often the other way in the US. So the stupid idea that a stock below $5 is not worth looking at should not be applied. A stock with crappy market capitalisation, small shareholdings, a downtrend and poor fundamentals should be avoided. Otherwise MM has good advice, and it seems that you have discovered why its often stated that losers average losers. As an exercise in thought.....rather than setting a target and stop loss off an entry, why not try and work out where you would place a stop loss and target first, and then see if it makes sense now to buy it immediately or wait until the price is more favourable.

its been said before.... we all get what we want out of the markets. substitute dieting for trading......thats an interesting industry. Being fat and obese is not a medical problem (with rare exceptions)....its not a disease. its a lack of self disclipline and understanding the simple equation of energy in = energy out + fat storage. Some people need help, but the diet wont help them, its the change in mindset, and its usually mamas cooking that can start the problem I like the idea Ingot, and I too have similar sentiments....however I will say people do change over time in the natural course of living. So always questioning and re testing ideas, re reading books, forums etc; is fine. No one ever died from getting an education. Some times a gem of an idea just seemed like a line in a book when I read it a few years ago, often the small forgotten reminders can help get a ship back on course. The few things I have seen all sucessful traders have in common are......a passion for the markets...(.and not a theoretical one), a strong work ethic to follow the passion (these guys are not part time traders) and an ability to be flexible, constantly questioning themselves, their ideas and their positions....this helps them go from long to short, to cut losses, to pyramid, to not fall in love with positions etc. These I dont believe can be taught.

so far managed to get..... a feed from Esignal....it works, it updates and its real time as checked against tow other systems. The IB real time feed - loads a chart, but does not update. I have also confirmed with someone else on the MC website, that if loading data via Esignal, and trading via IB then orders will not be recognized.... so basically I am stuffed as I am not going to rely on IB data as its crap (they admit it and so does every one else)..... Once again so far, a system offers a lot and there are probably workarounds if using only a few instruments, but when trying to run things over a portfolio of many instruments.....they are close but not quite there. Quick conclusion.... I will continue with SC, and try and provide some feedback with MC and see what happens over the coming months. (as a side rant which has been continual for me, and ideally designed to push system developers ..... too many systems, brokers, whatever.... say they are the best, designed by traders etc..... wrong. Until you have a system that is able to handle a portfolio of systems over multiple markets and instruments then keep working. Being able to handle a specific market, a specific set of brokers, or only a few instruments at a time then you are not the best..... mind you I dont know of many systems that can yet.... but at least some cover some markets and lots of instruments well.) (its also a lot batter than it was a few years ago)

Alas - so far no good. (yes its a new version, and yes it has issues.....) but today it has crashed my computer three times, automatically logged me out of IB twice, and I there is not a lot of intuitive stuff there.... eg; I was getting errors regards linking ASX stocks - not recognising the exchange etc; even though it was showing correctly in the quote manager. I managed a work around via sheer luck, but then it crashed my system. I will keep posting updates as I will keep persevering!

i just downloaded the free MC discetionary trader, and used it on a paper trading IB account setup for FX. ...it looks good and promising. I might start to test it on some stocks on the ASX and see how it goes. (one thing Sierra cant do well yet, is stocks here in Australia as it does not get a feed from someone like Esignal, and IB data is not good enough to rely on) So lets retest MC and see how it goes..... luckily i have a lot of computers and screens

hi Tams....a couple of questions if i may.... I had a quick look at MC again and their discretionary trader (the free version) It seemed to me that it the full blown version still did not have the manual chart trading on it yet? is that correct or is the Discretionary trader also part of the main MC version? From memeory, I think this is correct - I can hook MC up to various data feeds - eg; ESignal, and IB and look at both ASX stocks and CME futures as feed by Esignal and FX as fed by IB, and at the same time manually and auto trade via execution through IB as a broker? thanks.

Drawing the zones is not a problem...... being able to easily change the zones, and tell the autotrader what to do while within the zones is the key. In terms of cost - it depends on what offered...... if it just draws zones i have little control over -$0 if it has flexibility, draws zones and allows me to control what happens in those zones, AND is easy to use over a portfolio of instruments - not just a few.... who knows. $100pm, $100 once off, it depends on what system....if on NT for me $0. If it can do what I want have flexibility and its all mine, and tailored for me..priceless

[quote name=MadMarketScientist;110999 I also like to stress my trading systems by seeing how they would do in the bad times of the day -- times I usually would not trade due to the ranges/volumes/success being tougher. I find if it holds up at least acceptably' date=' like a scratch than I'm onto something good. MMS[/quote] for me this is the crucial part - its the opposite of selling a system and only showing the good parts making money is easy - hanging on to it is the hard part.

just convince yourself that the world will exist without you for 20mins-1 hour a day......and surprise surprise it will. the emails will still be there, the mkt will still be ticking over, the sun will still be shining

(just to participate) I actually dont trade setups on the AUD, except those similar to the rumpled one - 20 ticks from a low - whereby i just look for swings for a bounce, and trade some longs on it. Tough work lately as its been a bit choppy bit still ok. Otherwise my only opinion on it is this..... Watch China

I agree with you Tams, however as mentioned SC is working at present. I also only needed to learn enough for about 100 lines of code, as I have pretty much done the programming in excel vba so understand the logic needed..... plus thanks for the update re the MC newer versions and chart trading

Ingot 54 ""It seems to be a two-part idea you are probing for - a manual trigger for an auto-trader to get to work? You don't want the computer to set the zones - this is YOUR task ... is that correct? Then you want the computer to go to work and auto-trade, once you "tell" it the zone it is confined to?"" yes.....and thanks for generating interest in the thread again and as EL says....... he does it in a similar way, and thats the way I have been heading also. I was more looking for the best system to do it in. NT I did not like (and it seems others seem to be steering away from it also), MC I liked but wanted manual trading from the charts as well. I have switched to Sierra and love it...hard to learn but its stable etc; and I like it. Currently I still find Excel the best system to manage a lot of instruments and the context, while I use the system to handle the data. My real issue is having the time to learn stuff, and do all the things I am wanting to do..... plus make some money. I realize I have bitten off more than I can chew, but thats fine - you just chew harder. Additionally it could be argued I trade too many instruments.....but I am not interested in making small amounts of money per day. I want it all Tams - thanks for the MC feedback, I might look at it again at some stage, except I am liking Sierra more at this stage.

look at Interactive brokers website they detail round the world trading via their system (maybe you should too Bob if they trade there....$30 for index futures is expensive)

Point taken..... but the same could be said about people who monitor one or two stocks and dont trade them. While a lot of context can be lost in written forums, it is clear that your posts have been misunderstood, and as a hint....capital letters, exclamation marks, name calling, blunt statements and self promotion (not that I am saying you are guilty of this) generally draw the reader away from the point you are trying to make. I am sure MM may agree to disagree with me as he knows what my motto (acronym) stands for. regardless, all the best working for your hedge fund.

The one reason to trade more than a few stocks..........trade more instruments and make more money. Its that easy! the point is its not that easy, but if you have a repeatable dynamic robust edge then surely you should be able to apply that to a lot of instruments. The hard part is being able to find the time and systems to be able to do it effectively. But clearly with your track record as it is then that should be no problem. There are plenty of stocks that fit your criteria of being liquid and that move. Now if there are other motivations like, diversification, wanting to only work 1 hour a day, not wanting to follow a portfolio and understand portfolio management, desire to specialise, desire to just trade one instrument then fine...... but (As you mention in another post...... you dont need to trade a lot of stocks....but dont say people who do are nuts. ...you also question MM about the bashing and then you say others are nuts.....this is a forum for discussion, varying ideas, and opinions.)

Personally I think if you have - - enough money - a trading strategy that has an edge - the discipline to actually focus and work every day Then the more stocks the better. This creates two real issues - portfolio issues with regards to the platform to use and monitor the portfolio, and the portfolio risk management - an extra level over just single instrument trading. At present most platforms are too orientated to cover only a few instruments and require way too much management for portfolios and active trading. There are some exceptions - but they are limited depending on the instruments and the country you are in. Ideally Excel allows the greatest flexibility but then you have to have the charting and the broker all talk via Excel.....as opposed to having just one system. Plus with more instruments you often need greater computing power. my two cents...

first prize a free option, second prize a free option, third prize a free option. did you take the free option?

I am obsessively passionate about trading (or maybe the business of trading). its a curse and a blessing. Recently I went from trading by myself in a room (4years) going to the beach before the open, and after, and in a long round about way via a sidetrack tour to the UK during the GFC - what a bleak place, made even bleaker .....I am back. Now I have moved back into a room with a bunch of different guys who all trade various styles and instruments. Its fun, we go to the pub for lunch, we chat, we swap ideas and stories and help each other out with administrative stuff - what a nightmare this has become lately....and that is what takes up most of the day - admin. Now once this is done, the aim is to automate more things....as I take a different approach to others and trade more instruments.....currently learning some C++ to help in this. I treat this as a business - not a lifestyle choice, or a freedom choice etc; So the mentality maybe different to others, but I am always busy, will always be busy and I like it like that. I switch off when I need to. I may hold positions for months, but I sleep at night and dont sit in front of a computer. I know I will work until I drop as I like it, but I also know how to enjoy myself when not trading - and that is important.

Years ago when I first started trading I was chatting to a friend who was also trading - we worked on the option floor at the time. He was sort of big noting himself at the time about how he was the big player in the pit, how good his year had been, how if he left his firm they would suffer etc; etc;.( At the time I thought he had been stiffed on a bonus. ) This guy over the years never really made much money trading and is now a broker, partially as a result of this conversation. Anyway... as you do on any floor, you pull these guys down and tell them to put their heads back in the box and get over themselves - all in good fun of course, but I said something that just came out without much thought, that has helped me in my own trading, and he still reminds me that it helped him put some perspective on his own trading/place in the markets even 15 yrs later. what I said was along the lines of..... "If you got hit by a bus at lunch today, by tomorrow you will have been replaced by your work as they need someone to manage the books risk, by next week you will be in the ground and we will be lamenting your loss, in 2 weeks time we will get over it and occasionally we will reminisce about remembering the time when you did something - most likely unrelated to the trading or the market, and all the while the market will not care who you are, what you did, think or say." What both of us got out of it was that looking impressive, big noting yourself is relevant if you are selling, but when it comes to trading and managing risk its all about the doing and not the talking.....even if you are making good money. Why go through the pain of banging your head against the wall, either do what works, or do something else. (I also know quite a few people who have gone through this, so its not uncommon)

zdo - i laugh when you say that as you are correct - its system dependent. I always imagine a fish asking a human - so how do I breathe? Dont ask me why this pops in my head.....maybe its an old larson cartoon.

in simplistic terms some (but not all) FX brokers are just like bookies. sometimes they lay off the trades you make, other times they dont. But either way, its all a relative bet, as opposed to equities where you make actually own something - a share certificate, and this is exchanged by the clearing houses after brokers execute the trades. For most FX there is no centralised clearing house for this reason. Nothing needs to be cleared or exchanged. Whereas in equities, the share registries need to be updated, cash needs to be transferred from the buyers to the sellers and the share certificates are actually exchanged. (also i would not say equities are like dealing with a black box - it is now just a computerised market place as opposed to a floor)

so you are asking for a trading buddy with an electric cattle prod for when you dont follow your plan..... zappp.....ouch, zapp......ouch, stop it.....zapp...ouch. my two cents....you need a friend to chat too to pass the time, to throw around ideas, but only you can stick to your plan. What are they going to do when you tell them your plan?

my 2 cents - all those conspiracy theories are poor excuses. you were over leveraged. end of story. There is so much government regulation going on around the world today to protect idiots both from banks, institutions and the mums and dads of the world who borrow too much and pat themselves on the back when they make money and then complain when they loose. Throttle back on the leverage will mean less regulations, better markets, less blowups.:helloooo:

good luck in finding one thats simple, cheap and that has enough flexibility. Otherwise, my two cents use excel and thank the gods for cut and paste