SIUYA

Wolfenstien - I remember people playing that on trading floors when it first came out when times were dull and ten people around a computer watching going ohh, ahh, kill the m...f. It makes me feel old. For something more sedate. Mahjong at FREEGAMES.WS - Play free Mah-Jong, a solitaire game online

This one must be the joke of the year....and I am sure there will be more articles to follow. Given all that has happened, from the GFC, counterparty risk, collapse in Euro countries, fighting the volker rule, MFGlobal etc; etc; etc; The joke is these guys are still doing it, are bigger than ever and no matter what people say to try and defend them this sort of behaviour is what moral hazard is all about. Gotta love it...... highlighted exert from Drew Built 30-Year JPMorgan Career Embracing Risk - Bloomberg JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM)’s Chief Investment Officer Ina R. Drew, head of the unit responsible for a $2 billion trading loss, built a 30-year career at the largest U.S. bank by embracing risk and avoiding the spotlight. “With everything she does, she thinks in terms of trading,” said Stephen Murray, head of CCMP Capital Advisors LLC, created from a JPMorgan private-equity unit in 2006. “There are risk-lovers, there are risk-haters, and the best traders will take the risk as long as they get paid for it.” Drew’s operation, which helps manage the bank’s risk, has been transformed under Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon to make bigger speculative bets with the firm’s own money, according to five former employees,Bloomberg News reported last month. Some bets were so big JPMorgan probably couldn’t unwind them without roiling markets, the former executives said. The loss disclosed yesterday came after an “egregious” investment-office failure tied to credit derivatives, Dimon said in a conference call. “In hindsight, the new strategy was flawed, complex, poorly reviewed, poorly executed and poorly monitored.”

to be honest I have never really thought about it as I am using an off the shelf system and not the IB API directly. On that I have noticed that sometimes while manually moving a take profit, it has been hit whilst I was moving it - so I guessed that means it was still sitting live in the market as a limit order until I transmitted it. Makes sense. My guess off the top of my head is that unless the market is really close to the stops then does it make much difference in reality? The best way to test it - and I assume you are doing this automatically- and hence it can make a difference is to see what happens if a stop is hit twice (ie; you stop and reverse the order), v what happens if you increase the slippage. These two scenarios would most likely closely replicate the two choices you have.

depends on setup....and even in any testing I have done this is the same then depends on what happens through out the trade. I have tried the fixed r:r - just did not work for me as it did not make sense. The one golden rule to stick by is never amend your stop and make it bigger.

Here on TL we all like lists and new books and ideas........... As you guys know I’m always looking for a way to make some extra cash. I thought I’d try my hand at writing. MY NEW GOLF BOOK I have recently completed work on my latest book on golf and am quite proud of the results. In order to market the publication, I'm asking friends and family to spread the news about this essential read. This book on golf gives the reader valuable playing tips and insider information that I have gained through my 10+ years of experience. > Highlights include: > > Chapter 1) How to Properly Line Up Your Fourth Putt > Chapter 2) How to Hit a Maxfli ball from the Rough When You Just Hit a > Titleist from the Tee > Chapter 3) How to Get More Distance off the Shank > Chapter 4) When to Give the Curator the Finger > Chapter 5) Proper Excuses for Drinking Beer Before 9:00 a.m > Chapter 6) How to Find That Ball That Everyone Else Saw Go in the Water > Chapter 7) How to Relax When You Are Hitting Three off the Tee > Chapter How to Relax When You Are Hitting Five off the Tee > Chapter 9) When to Suggest Major Swing Corrections to Your Opponent > > The book also includes the latest GOLF TERMS > • A Paris Hilton - an expensive hole > • A Diego Maradona - a very nasty 5 footer > • A Salman Rushdie - an impossible read > • A Rock Hudson - thought it was straight, but it wasn't > • A Cuban - needs one more revolution > • An Elton John - a big bender that lips the rim > • An Adolf Hitler - two shots in the bunker > • A Yasser Arafat - ugly and in the sand > • A Kate Winslett - a bit fat but otherwise perfect > • A Kate Moss - bit thin > • A Gerry Adams - playing a Provisional > • A Rodney King - over-clubbed > • An O. J. Simpson - got away with it > • A Princess Grace - should have taken a driver > • A Princess Di - shouldn't have taken a driver > • A Ladyboy - looks like an easy hole but all is not what it seems > • An elephant's arse - high and shitty > • A condom - safe but didn't feel real good > • A circus tent - a BIG top > • A sister-in-law - up there but I know that I shouldn't be

same reason as you cant really back test his ideas too well. They need be used in conjunction with existing ideas and they ideally are designed to help improve things, by providing a little more insight into where you are relative to things.On their own they might not be worth much.

if you apply this to Wall street then it probably should be be....Eventually the behavior leads to management, promotion and success.

I quite liked the strategies - particularly number 8. Avoid the hype and questions. plus gosu, lol thanks.... "The best way to deal with frustration and disappointment is through exercise and sexual activity, not by crying on your buddy's shoulder. As for analyzing your performance with a buddy, that's no one's business but yours." you are talking about analysing trading performance with your buddy right.... if not I suggest a video camera and some internet searches using the word porn might be more helpful. :haha:

i just feel he gets picked on a lot. its an age thing for me.....I start to feel sorry for people. Its probably a deficiency I am developing.

great point Karoshiman which is why its important to develop a system specifically for yourself even if it borrows from others and to tailor it based on your own views of the market and your strengths. because didn't Ed say - "Win or lose, everybody gets what they want out of the market." (I still maintain the mental aspects are important when something/somehow f..ks with the mind - and I am no expert on this but I thought thats a lot of what the trading tribe was all about) yet....in trying to keep the thread on track.....maybe thats a lot of what messes with the mind. The illusion of control. We might think that we have control not only of the markets (impossible IMHO) and control over our plans (likely if we have done the work and this is probably all we have some control over), and control over ourselves (as science is showing despite what we all think in general we dont - here in lies potential and real issues.) 1 out of two aint bad, and if we can get two out of three then thats great....if you can control the market well thats heavenly.

Agree. (50% ) (In trading....assuming a coach is really an educator (not a mentor who I would say is one who does not charge either) and making a difference between the psychologist and an educator, as they should offer different services) I have often stated and asked Rande about this, as I have never thought a trading psychologist is appropriate for a beginner. A educator maybe, but often they are expensive, over rated and there is enough free information available. Hence only once you have reached a level, only then may a psychologist be of any value if you find there is something holding you back in some form that is more related to the mental aspects of this occupation. Now this level may or may not be based on profit....however if you really are doing all the homework, have a profitable plan but then cant stick to it or constantly self sabotage - then surely a mental coach might help? So I guess in agreeing with gosu - there are no issues - other aspects of trading - the education, the market philosophy, the practice, the back testing etc; should all be working and well covered aspects of a traders armory before the next level....and yet if all these are working - what else is there? I do disagree however that depending on the issues you can have a big impact on profitability, as we know there is a fine line between being successful or not in trading. I say this as I have seen enough people do the same trades and yet some manage to make money others loose.....and given the amount of freely available systems and ideas out there....why are some people able to implement them successfully while others are unprofitable.....is it simply not following the rules or something more? (especially for discretionary systems that are generally rules based)

I agree with you.....and the extent - badly worded maybe so thanks for being my English teacher (and plus none of this is meant to be an attack even if it might come across as like it), that there are exceptions is that while you may not develop issues. Others might. Does that not mean people like Rande may offer something to someone, or that SIM trading might be of value, or that not everyone reacts the same. Thats great, I adopt much the same attitude, but I also recognise that sometimes I do repeat the same stupid mistakes and wonder why. Its not lack of a plan, or experience - maybe its just I got out of bed the wrong side, or I did not like my coffee for the day...maybe I have underlying issues. Often the best way to fix them for me may be different - for others they may wish to understand why/if they have underlying issues. While you say you dont have issues and there are no underlying issues then maybe you could solved the rest of the worlds problems. I only mention this as I used to think the same, but does your experience or mine mean there is no worth in others work, ideas, help? the analogy (silly as it is) is about the fact that people will 'attack' (for want of a better word) anothers ideas/policies/methods when they dont agree with it from their own perspective, just because it might not apply to you, and you dont like them. Hence just because the Abercrombie and finch makes my skin crawl and I think its hype, does not require me to comment endlessly on it on a fashion website.....much as I dont use volume analysis and thing its also pointless....I dont feel I ned to get onto a volume thread about it to try and dismiss it. Same as for analogies - if you wish to stick to trading, and think that people dont have issues related to their past (or whatever reason) just because you dont then I think you have a very limited view of the world. Rande, and anyone with relevant issues. Point is....I might not agree with Randes ideas, practices or methods, but I would not think that you can say that "there are no issues" - I have value from thinking about some of the things raised - attack/question his methods, but to sweep the whole thing under the carpet seems lacking.

I 100% agree with you on both points to a large extent, but that does not mean that people also dont develop issues, or have things that hold them back, or develop issues.....unless of course you are saying good traders never deviate from plans, never get worried unnecessarily so, never have bad days whereby they act irrationally..... do you apply the same thinking to sports and sports psychologists. What about management coaches who help people who otherwise are normally successful but cant quite break through to the next level. I went into the cult of abercrombie and Fitch today - the Mayfair shop is something else....and for me I hate it, I hate the culture, the image the whole marketing crap...but it does not mean that others might not get value out of it. Much the same as I dont care for volume analysis in trading, and yet I dont need to say those who push it push rubbish. I think discussing things, allowing people to have their say is part of a health process, and not everyone fits into your and my box. or maybe I just like the underdog.

Ideally this is true and would be the easy answer but isnt this the whole point?.....you can do all the testing, all the preparation and then still act irrationally when faced with uncertainty.....hence, why, and how do you stop it. Trusting in yourself and what you do certainly does not ensure you are rational. I dont think any discretionary trader can say they are that much of a robot they haven't done "silly" irrational things, and/or deviated from their plan, and it may not have been uncertainty that triggers it....it may be the belief they have mastered uncertainty. But I think these things are related and yet separate from "just sticking to the plan"

There is no truth only a multitude of possibilities. If you want answers then you are asking the wrong questions. (dedicated as a tribute to Zdo) most texts are 90% rubbish and could probably be summarised in 6 pages, but who wants to read the latest novel "the Titanic" ship hits iceberg, ships sinks, many people die. the end. If its all a journey then maybe thats part of the appeal of searching for the truth.....people like the search rather than the results. "Do some people have an innate ability to understand which path they need to tread?" Do some people just strike lucky? Or does a trader need to come full circle before deeply understanding the benefits which they might personally glean from a certain text?" could all this be summarised as??? ......some people get lucky, or have an innate ability to get from A to Z without the time others take. Personally I like re-reading things, and at different times gleam different things, as I am not the same person I was when I was 20, and dont expect to be the same person I am now when I hit 60. Yet your point is for inexperienced traders, and yet too many dismiss the simple things that are often repeated time and time and time again.....so it does not matter what you tell them. Trading rule 1. you are likely to loose money.....great where do I sign up? WTF......

weather or not we are wired - clearly everyone is different as some people seek risk, others actively avoid it, and I would have thought that as we do have fears then maybe we are wired to avoid things with uncertainty (we tread carefully when we dont know whats going on, we prefer rountine and plan things as humans)....or maybe that's just a common sense mechanism for survival as those reckless ones were eaten by lions. Who knows.....but I did think that using a casino as an example was a poor one - there is no doubt in this case - the house wins! For casinos its the thrill of thinking you can beat the odds, there is not much uncertainty involved. Usually through some system, or lucky superstition. Even thrillseekers - base jumpers and the like - seek out beating the odds, and are generally risk averse and plan well as opposed to seeking out uncertainty. I trade to make money, not because I necessarily enjoy the uncertainty of the markets. (I dont see myself going to deal with Nigerian scams just in case one pays off) So if we are wired or not it not the debate (and I dont mean to argue with you and make it as such )...... I would have thought the real issue is - why do we act so irrationally in the face of uncertainty (and we are talking about only the uncertainty associated with - will it go up or down), and how (if caused by fears, inability, no talent, our money narrative, our parents, etc) we can rectify the situation. (if by magic, jungian magic, other helpful tricks and tips,or simple head banging stubbonness)....or by simply minimising the negative effects of dealing with uncertainty or the negative results if we are wrong.

(one reason I dont really like poker jargon (analogies fine) in trading ) A value bet in trading for me is in the context of what the market is doing (people talk about the flow, the mood, the pattern etc) and then how best to react to it. The value is in knowing how to play it in the context of the pattern you recognise it as. (The word value has a few meanings as well - value of the context, value of the pattern, value of the pattern in the context, value of the strategy to apply given the context and the pattern) We look at patterns for a reason - they are meant to work in a particular way. If they dont then what else will/can they do....and then you can play to where the value is in that pattern as it plays out. There is more than one way to play something, and the flexibility to go either way, or the ability to play only to your strengths is important. so what I mean in this example is that - if you think this is a possible 5 wave move in the EURUSD that has been slowly grinding up, there are a number of ways to play it - I stated a few. ie; if you think this pattern is genuine, and valid, then where is the value in the pattern. - if you are bearish, then you go with the move down, but recognise that a tight stop has more value at this stage than a loose one....why, because markets do react, and so at this stage it might collapse but its more likely to react violently. - if so you can choose to either try and pick the bottom - wave equality, first reaction, three line break, whatever. - if not you can ride it. However if your strengths are in going long, or your naturally bullish, or still bullish for what ever reasons, then you best bet (value) is in picking the bottom as a long.....as the pattern implies the end of a reactionary move in a grinding up trend. So you can get lots of value out of it either way.....point is as often said here that things are strategy/system dependent and that various patterns have various ways of playing them and the value is how to do it.....regardless of which (long or short) is right and works out. Think of the best case scenario - short, buy it near the bottom, reverse and go long....now that's trading! (I hope that makes sense)

I am no expert, however..... It probably reasonably well established that humans become irrational when dealing with probabilities and uncertainty.....just as they often become irrational when dealing with certain questions of value sometimes. Hence we do underestimate dangerous issues and become overly optimistic. Its our way of surviving the world and rationalising/visualising/convincing ourselves of things. A coping mechanism or survival mechanism to view the world with rosy glasses. We do thing we are in control, when often we are not. (some turn to religion, others science ) Problem is the market is not like the real world we think we live in where the sun is pretty much guaranteed to rise in the morning, we are not judged as soon as you hit the button and the stigma of being right or wrong is immediately in your face. How this is related to anything is probably or possibly anyone's guess. Without getting too philosophical, as a go..... 5 things on the entire planet that i could state with absolute certainty will happen. 1....one day the world as we know it will not exist 2....the markets will crash again 3....the markets will rally again 4....humans will always repeat their mistakes 5....free lunches in the market will always be arbitraged away.

best start a new thread for who is better than who lest the fear and chaos within engulf us all.

Its not predictable, its often just a value bet.....both for Fib and for waves, and prices are just as predictable as the humans who create them.

futures floor as operator 1992 Equity options 1993-2000 Stocks, options and futures 2000- present Added FX, more futures and less stocks approx 2008

sort of reminds me of the Pope room at Buca di Beppo LA....look it up youtube I went there by mistake and it made me think - wow this is a classy joint. I prefer Charlies room

FWIW - Just thought of this as a current example....and it was not too hard to see in real time, as the last two days down have been severe in recent comparative daily moves. Not to count waves etc, but when you see something like this forming, and has 5 waves down now you can either do nothing. (This was my choice as I had shorted this morning got shaken out for a small gain, and headed out to do some chores, plus I am meeting someone this afternoon - lame, and a bugger but hey thats trading) or .....if its probably still worth a short if you can get in at a reasonable point BUT, - it tells me if the move down does not continue - get out ASAP, as the reversal will be severe. or .....look to get on the reversal - punting the bottom in some manner. point is - this is how i use elliot waves when they seem to just show themselves, and I can then adjust for what I think I will do. Choices to cut or enter were many depending on what you like....the overall context is the important element for me. http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28827&stc=1&d=1336050630

noooooooo......you mean if regulations stopped this it would be shown up. ...you mean they side pocket bad trades, split funds, back two strategies for a while and then promote the one that works, use their research and contacts to keep the really plum trades for themselves - after of course the fund is set for their 3% of AUM. Damn - and I thought only the investment banks did this. MM - do you have the actual returns of these guys funds if you had invested in them?

It is interesting as taking out the wizards that were market makers, arbitragers, etc; you seemingly get left with a few that were either trend followers, and even less who where short term speculators relying on their own edge. (The HFT guys, well who knows what they are up to, speed, inside edges, front running ??) so of these last two groups in question.... The trend followers (generally) have certainly not done so well over the last decade and yet still (if they were doing it properly) managed to make good money in 2008, and some still produce consistent returns and build assets under management. But regardless - there are business models and there are trading models and they are often different. One might be a fee gatherer the other needs to make money, and as some large hedge funds show that it is either because they had some spectacular one off wins, (Paulson?) which get them the AUM and fees or that they have great business skills and outsource to smaller internal managers and basically diversify, diversify, diversify. (you know many managers go under due to poor business decisions, and not necessarily poor returns, though these might factor in to the business decisions - eg; too many mouths to feed, declining AUM, pain in the ass clients who want madoff like returns rather than returns and then they complain about fees. ) Its the same thing though - its tough to make a living purely off this game and I still think in much the same vein as everyone is saying its that patience (waiting for the outliers, good entry points as we are nimble, running profits etc) is our best edge. (my stinking internet keeps dropping out today - auto traders for exits dont work when that happens :doh:)