SIUYA

Can agree on this....makes sense this however makes little sense..... The Greeks are a derivative of the price movement of the underlying. from Wikipedia.....and the commonly accepted definition of delta when applied to options.... Delta Delta,[4] , measures the rate of change of option value with respect to changes in the underlying asset's price. Delta is the first derivative of the value of the option with respect to the underlying instrument's price . In a nutshell - the delta tells you nothing more than how much you expect the option price to move in response (ie; his future expectations of price movement) to a price move in the underlying..... not exactly how that is a future expectation of price movement in the underlying.... the greeks are derived from the underlying not the other way around. (my guess sounds like he is short volatility.)

why jail.....so far it seems that they were trading and lost money.....and it was always likely to be bigger than first reported. Has there been issues of criminal behavior? If they have not done anything about MF Global which stole money from customer accounts do you think they will do anything here?

I would be interested in a cursory explanation of what your mentor meant by this. If he is a market maker in options then his edge is in taking small clips. If he is punting cheap options for directional moves, then I wonder his sorcery for diving the moves. If he is spreading options, then again unless he is a market maker the spread would likely kill him. If he is shorting options, then he still needs some measure to kep him from getting run over by the steamroller as he picks up the pennies. Not having a go here, as I also think there are many ways to make money, however it was an interesting comment you made and my question (be it the right or wrong one) is would you please elaborate? thanks

I dont mean to be misleading (intentional or not) quoting from my own post..... "Yes - you do see charts on Ninja with Felton trading indicators. - these are renko bar based, so you dont really see whats going on inside them. You dont necessarily have to have your own charts to follow along with. There are a few confusing times when you are seeing a chart of Crude and a chart of the EURUSD and talk is about a trade happening in gold and you have no chart of it....additionally there are times where the trades do seem to occur whereby you might have missed how they were put on. I did not think there was a great deal of explanation for certain trades, and I as they are scalping mainly then its quick to move onto the next trade. Some trades definitely had the moderator saying we will set an entry here, take proift here, stop here......so yes that does happen prior the trade" Not sure how I have suggested you dont show charts.....speaking for Db. he may have been referring to any moderator that does not show charts is ludicrous.....it is not all about you Roger. --- so Db - if you are reading this - Rodger shows charts.... The simplest thing is ....do you have a recording of your sessions? If so, post one - as I said Tuesday two weeks ago would be a good one. If I am wrong, then on the internet record I will profusely apologize. If you dont record them, then how do you know I am wrong? Not at all - I thought that following the moderation was a little confusing, and that seeing two charts and discussing another can be a little confusing. Given your own confusion of keeping up with things a couple of times when it gets busy - this is understandable. Some trades happen quickly and you do by your own admittance use a bit of discretion.... (from my notes made at the time - "Comments such as nice short on gold “missed that one” but then does not show why. " - this was the impression I had - maybe it was Clint, maybe it was you, maybe I did just miss it.) If you have a recorded session - an unedited one from the time I watched then as I said I would gladly apologise, if others dont feel the same way...... If you dont then it is merely a matter of he said, he said...... You happily post as many positive testimonials on your site as you can, so I dont know if a few negative reviews for a few things are much to be concerned about unless you are more focused on the sales. Also Roger - I am sure you are viewing this as an exercise in improving your business.....if not, then its a missed opportunity. ........................... As a lesson I have learnt (given you were my first real trading room review), along with any other due diligence questions to look at, ask about. As a suggestion to anyone else entering a free trading room, or doing a review of something....record the sessions. Maybe your first impressions are wrong and after review or thought things become clearer....a good habit to get into. Alternatively it may confirm your first impressions.

sounds a good start.....but is it you? When you go down the pub (or what ever) and talk with your mates, do you wear your heart on your sleeve, or just keep things to yourself naturally. Dont force yourself into a box because a trading rule suggests you should..... you did not mention what your weaknesses and strengths were....does this play to them? (I assume it does)

unfortunately you will then walk into another problem by having more instruments....that of correlation when you are wrong. I dont know if there is one correct answer. Previously I preferred to have multiple stocks - for largely the same reason you suggest - diversification.....however I also found it worth while putting a limit on how many of these you a....scanned and looked at and b...hold or trade at any one time (I often found I had too many open and had to limit myself) Alternatively a friend went the opposite way and he went a bit harder at the one he liked the most, and just kept plugging away at improving his "choosing" skills.....and had to just satisfy himself often he choose poorly. (ultimately he still had more than one trade on at once usually but he preferred to concentrate)

Down boy! you are starting to slip into the name calling with saying I am being misleading, and that I seem to be confused a lot....maybe just maybe your trading room is confusing or substandard - I am not saying it is - all I have said is that I did not think it was really good value for money. I had little interest in trying to work out your scalping technique, or pursuing anything further especially as you constantly make it clear to everyone that no member of TL can ever pay you or be accepted as a student......so why would any of us bother? and if you really think that you show every trade, and explain everything then i am sure you would have no problems releasing a recorded session from two weeks ago - lets say Tuesday. So far Roger you dont seem at all open to any criticism and the opinion of others, all you wish to do is defend yourself, and IMHO it raises more questions....hence that may be the source of my confusion. As for releasing financials- I can guess your income already based on what you say you make. Alternatively often people do release subsets of a month....there are alternatives and as I have constantly said - i dont think this would be an unreasonable request. If you like I can just release all the "confused" notes I made unedited while watching or people can as i suggested request their own free trial and make their mind up.

Roger no one is asking for IRS statements, your balance sheet or such. Simply some sort of live trading record - I think that as you show SIM trading, and yet say you trade live I think it is a fair request for someone who may wish to take your course. No one here is demanding it from you. You have made your reasons as to why you would not disclose any live trading records, and people can make up their minds as to what they think. A better example to compare it against in a university situation is, in PHD world written papers that have been submited, reviewed and published in valid journals are probably worth something. Someone writing a book on their Phd subject may be worth less, someone claiming knowledge - and even if they do, cannot show anything for it, may be worth even less. (found this for a bit of a laugh 10 reasons Ph.D. students fail) (When it comes to something such as electrical engineering and making money - well I would assume that they would be more likely to be good as business first. When it comes to trading making money is the only thing - hence its easy to rank and proove) Thats all - its a ranking. and no....someone throwing around statements may be a complete idiot, lucky, scammer, freak of nature or they may just be a guru - but we all know there is more to it than that. (really not sure why i am continuing repeating myself):doh:

I think I am following you...... Yes - you do see charts on Ninja with Felton trading indicators. - these are renko bar based, so you dont really see whats going on inside them. You dont necessarily have to have your own charts to follow along with. There are a few confusing times when you are seeing a chart of Crude and a chart of the EURUSD and talk is about a trade happening in gold and you have no chart of it....additionally there are times where the trades do seem to occur whereby you might have missed how they were put on. I did not think there was a great deal of explanation for certain trades, and I as they are scalping mainly then its quick to move onto the next trade. Some trades definitely had the moderator saying we will set an entry here, take proift here, stop here......so yes that does happen prior the trade I am sure there can be more explanations given once you have signed on, and/or if you were to watch for a lot longer periods. As if to weather or not you could just as quickly replicate the trades in your own live account... hard to say. I have seen enough traders in pits, and at computers to follow a lot of what they are doing, and their ideas and levels before they do it. - scalping in a trading room....with multiple instruments, lack of screen space, discretion applied....harder to follow or replicate ''''''''''''''''''''''''''' As for going on and on.....I thought that was what discussions often did, and in reviewing things, questions that dont 'seem' to get a satisfactory answer of course will raise more questions. I for one will disagree with Roger regards SIM trading, providing satisfactory evidence of live trading - for clearly the answer if you requested it from him is no, - as as to how much of an effect that may or may not have in translating to live trading who knows - we do agree someone can certainly teach in SIM, and that person maybe a good teacher. If like me you think that a requirement would be that they can trade live as well (and or proove it) then that is a better result - if having to choose between two similar trading rooms, then I would choose a live trading one. I can tell you today - my model EURUSD is looking ok today...my live EURUSD trading is getting chopped up with a few trades gathering extra slippage. There is probably not much more for me to add on that point.

Roger, no one is asking for your financial statements like the IRS. Bernie Maddoff supplied all the documentation in the world for some and look what happened there. It is also not an invasion of privacy when you make a claim, base a business on it and dont provide evidence of that. Hedge fund managers are generally taken a lot more seriously if they prove they have skin in the game - just saying you do and not backing it up is a red flag. (this may be on a different scale but whats the difference?) The point is the same - if an educator says they trade in real life and then only ever show SIM results or trading, I think that counts for a lot. As an educator and with many years experience I think you must realise that people do approach the two differently..... (swing a bat, a club, a racket while practising is one thing, in the real game its a different thing) Look .....I dont have a problem if an educator just teaches, I think that is fine, but if they say they trade live then asking for live results is entirely appropriate and fair. Maybe we can agree to disagree but I view it as a red flag.

I am with MM on this....if some one was doing proper due dilligence on a trader who educates then they should be able to ask for and provided with statements. (of course these can be faked, but at least a lot of the time they can also get verified if you really wanted to - not saying anyone in particular does)) While yes we can all agree if you cant profitably SIM trade first, dont do it with real money....everyones story i know of usually points out that SIM trading is over optimistic and represents a better view of the real results tat you can expect. If this is true what you appear to be saying here Roger is that your SIM trading is worse than your real life trading? You will show people SIM trades but not real trades so as not to get their expectations up? This does not make sense unless your SIM trading is worse than your real life trading.

thats why trade journals are important when starting out to work out if your thoughts and actions have any value....and which ones to concentrate on or avoid. If you cant back test a trade journal is your best friend until its ingrained - and even then it still may have value in keeping it. Hint - focus on improving your strengths, and minimising the weaknesses - it is far easier than trying to either improve the weaknesses or eliminating them.

yes...part of a trading plan is a philosophy of how a market works, why it does what it does, how it moves, and how you can extract profits from that - if you dont have these things in your mind, then how do you know what strategy and tactics to use and when.

Hi Roger, I never received a message back from you as a PM, and asked again of you would send something through, so i figured it is easiest to ask here directly.....I also added a few extra questions.... 1....in your SIM trading, do you have the Ninja trading set at a conservative level, or is it assumed that limit trades get set when touched? Also it did not appear to show commissions 2....can people request your brokerage accounts for real trades? 2a.... or is everything you do in SIM? 3...how often do you change around your parameters and trading indicators? ie; can they be back tested or is there a fair bit of discretion? 3a....if you are constantly developing indicators (or renko bars) in order to better view the charts, how often are you changing this? Thanks.

A: dont scalp. I dont scalp, but I would imagine that in doing so, you are constantly micromanaging by its very nature.... Alternatively you had better really work out which entries are worth taking, and just cope with the losses, commissions and in taking profits too early...much as the neg says.

for those interested - stumbled across this. Concentration: how to focus better

While I am not necessarily a fan of indicators, this is an important point. Most indicators just replicate the same infrmation but in a slightly different format. The one thing that does not change (for most of them) is the underlying instrument that it represents. It is like looking at a map - it might be represented as a topographic map, a satellite image, a street view, a climate map....... It is important to understand what you want to get, and what data you want to get it from. Most indicatro laden charts you see, actually have similar things represented in different ways which is pointless......seems like they are going for confirmation of a bias rather than anything helpful.

Magic is just a sleight of hand....an illusion designed to trick people.

I am not really aware of Mr Baghdady, but i do believe there is a bit of controversy around him. Given that the apprenticeship was meant to finish at the end of 2011.....how did it go? My guess is the unsuccessful applicants not accepted where asked (ahem offered) to sign up for training courses. Yes....you are quite correct, having a mentor would certainly speed things along, however having a poor mentor, one who does not really trade, (without telling you so), or one who trades a very different style can actually set you back a long way - they might instill poor habits, styles or other such issues if its not to your personality.....its can then be harmful. Just food for thought. and dont worry - in my case I started trading early, and I was thrown into the bear pit with virtually the only training i did i did myself. I was watching the old green reuters screen and paper trading the futures markets - all based on what i had read in the first market wizards books.....at the same time, i was punching in tickets for some options traders, and reading Natenberg on options (that gets the head spinning) - one guys left, and they said - you seem to be interested and know what you are doing, give it a go. (Luckily i was confident, and took things slow, otherwise its easy to blow up quick, and I had an edge of being an option market maker) I can tell you at the end of a year of doing it full time, i had over 500 a4 pages of notes, thoughts ideas etc;. and i still did not know sh.t This also involved sitting and watching a lot of others guys of various styles doing it (maybe I was slow, maybe i had too much info going on) Point is it really is not until you find your own way, as many have testified - its when the light goes on for you that it really starts to work.

Mainly because of cost, spread and brokerage, and liquidity. Plus they can be used, your risk profile may change a lot, and they are ideally best used to replicate an idea....sometimes this can be dont effectively othertimes not. The holy grail! Sometimes it happens, most often not. Ideally options do give you this with the increased leverage of when you get it right....the offset is time decay....and as per most trading, waiting until all the ducks line up is the hard part. 100 ideas, 15 great ideas able to be put on, 10 trade entered, 1 winner. You can replicate anything, but it might come at a cost. In trying to answer the scenario...... Brokerage costs - these should be easy for you to work out....at a guess options brokerage is higher than your futures. A lot will depend on what is happening in the options prices at the time. You really only have a few choices at a simple level (to minimise risk and hence only buy puts) and this is based on which strike and hence which delta to replicate either an equivalent amount of deep ITM puts....margin should be less, but risk is limited (not much difference really) twice as many (or delta equivalent) ATM or OTM puts....eg; delta 25 means you need to buy 4 times as many.....hence if it collapses you make a killing....but when it comes to jobbing them, then the price should ideally move the same as the underlying move as you have 4 times as many. To run through these scenarios as to what things may or may not have been you really need to be able to replicate them in a system that can show it to you.....those payoff diagrams you often see are for expiry only generally. Also at best unless watching what happens in the actual option market, the rest is theoretical. yes.....and dont forget the delta 50 may now have a delta 51. The delta changes as the underlying price changes....the more ITM, the more it tend towards delta 100 (or 1). This also becomes much more sensitive as the option decays. eg; on expiry day the delta can move from 0 to 1 as it moves through the strike in a few ticks., whereas 3 months before hand its less sensitive. yep...you got it. Often the future is the better instrument. Simple....Options are often best seen as a method of insurance to protect, or as a measure of extra leverage (when opportunities really rarely pop up) or as part of a portfolio strategy in which you write that insurance. They can be used to replicate positions using combinations eg; bull bear collars, where by the risk profile changes, DEPENDENT on what happens.....maybe the best way to think about it is as way to look at varying scenarios and varying payoffs......but its still not a risk less, or risk free trade....you will still get stopped out.

If to use another "profession" as an example. Artist.....(and yes the end result may be different, but lets assume success in trading is a PL and success in the art world is recognition) you can learn all you want as an artist about the history, background, ideas and philosophy, techniques and styles - but its very hard to teach the creative process. You only need to read a few market wizards books to realise how many varying ways there are to do this, and how unless you are completely systemised (and even this has a creative process) there is a lot of "feel" Yet, if there are a few recurring themes that do come up over and over again then they are not that hard to learn, understand and do....they are repeated in every list of things a trader must do.....and yet its too often not done.....how many really have a plan, a detailed one, how many develop and work at habits, recording journals, experimenting and working out what works for them. My guess is a small percentage. As for technique - buy button, sell button......not that difficult. Koyasan...."Yes, you need organisational skills, core principles or whatever but what is lacking is a recognised proven program where I can learn how to become a trader" A course will not cover everything. They exist already, in various forms. Its a simple profession. The barriers to entry are small, the processes simple. (expansion through various CFA exams etc; is different, but these wont help you trade) The magic formula is in the doing Doing more of the the things that work, and less of those that dont, and maybe unfortunately while many of us might be the arts and crafts home artists, very few will be able to apprenticeship with great artists, and even fewer will be on the cover of artist digest themselves.

good point. Interestingly enough all those disclaimers really do is protect the vendor/advisor/manager from being sued.....they generally offer no protection to the client who rarely ever reads it, and then often just ignores it anyway. I think having a "know your client" survey is a good point....however these are also easily ignored. Are there any existing educator/vendor codes of conduct, or associations that are used to self regulate? Maybe there is something in that....

Roger, (rather than re-quoting I thought it easier to list) 1...time to trade v cost Yes you are correct, it takes time to learn to trade properly and I think a lot of people completely disregard this when they start the process. Do you have statistics that you can show as a percentage how many of your students remain active after a period, who are successful - enough to make a living out of it, or to at least make a reasonable return? That sort of verifiable information might go a long way to helping people assess value for money in a course. 2....Up selling As I said its a personal pet peeve of mine, and I am not sure I know of anyone who likes going into a place to be up-sold things. Also I compared it to the late night infomercials for feel, as opposed to saying I was told those things.....let me be clear on that.....please dont make me sound like I am distorting the facts. As I see it you are primarily in the business of making money from students, and yes you have every right to sell to them. If I dont like how that feels then that is my problem. Others might like it - this has been clearly stated. (It may also be a cultural thing - many of us not from the US dont necessarily get into the whole high five when someone takes a few ticks) I also think that one of the things that many at forums dont like about vendors is that from some of them there is a repetitive process at work.......some do it, others dont. These things can be subtle and you are even repeating it now.....with the "In fact, if you had decided that you really liked what we did and wanted to join up, you would have been politely and respectfully declined.....that is one of the techniques Bernie Maddoff used. It might be so subtle you are not even aware of it. Any novice marketing student knows this. Some people have a knack for it. I can choose to ignore it which I mostly do....but it does not mean I dont like it. 3...Value for me its ultimately about value. Now I may find value in a 50c chocolate bar, or a $50,000 watch where as others wont. Its a personal thing. Many people will do more homework on which car they will buy for 10,000 than a stock they purchase for 100,000. Its a human trait. I also think that there are a lot of uninformed choices in regards how someone picks their trading educator, and how they are paid for....Re a separate thread here at TL...why is there no accredited trading educators self regulating association? Why are there no codes of conduct? Surely in order to best promote your own profession that might be an idea. 3a....Regards value and education. Many agree that trading can be taught, many agree that it's an individual thing....its a lot about process and habits. Do you as a vendor vet potential clients for what they want out of the trading and maybe recommend that they might be better applying their time with a different strategy? While its often repeated here and elsewhere its still amazing how many people dont want to do the work requried or are just not suited to certain things. Usually when a university offers a course they tell you what commitment is required and what common traits are required from students. Just as food for thought. 5....PM....I did not receive anything back from you. Could you please resend. Thanks. I am sure that you are valuing this as feedback....and cutting you slack is not my intention. I just dont think it is worth it to have conversations degrade too far that's all.

Random general thoughts..... we dont regulate people from spending too much on on their houses, credit cards or lifestyles.....the banks are meant to do that We do regulate education and educators in most countries - thats usually to ensure that the people they turn out meet certain standards which mean the general public can then trust that these people have a certain level of expertise or knowledge - it by no means tells us if they are good or not - merely educated. I think that its too big a can of worms. do we regulate the "you can do it", the Anthony Robbins of the world? When it comes to finance, we regulate what "advice" can be given, and it would not be hard for a regulator to regulate trading educators for their general advice - however it will still not change a thing IMHO - and so why have extra regulation without any benefit. The simple fact is many people will choose to be scammed, and there is nothing you can do about this flaw in human nature without excessive regulation. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...an-expert.html Other things should be regulated first IMHO....eg; payday lenders Maybe any vendors of "general" or "specific" advice or education in trading should not be allowed to claim certain things, or they should not be allowed to charge a certain amount unless they can verify certain claims......?? Trading is an individual pursuit - and what works for one person will not work for others....no matter if the education is the same for all students, high quality and certified. What about when you know a lot about trading stocks but want to branch into futures? You would not want the government saying you HAVE to do a course in order to trade a new instrument. Regulations increases costs. If you dont do the homework before forking out good money to vendors - what makes you think you will do the work required to trade successfully. Ultimately I dont think that there should be regulation mainly as - too hard to regulate and police, pointless and unnecessary cost.

I agree with you Roger, I dont think you should be expected to teach for zero. A person should work out what is good value, and how and what is sold for the price. for someone wanting to dedicate their time to trading, and to following a method, fast tracking that can be worth it. The problem is I think any trader who has less than $50,000 to trade with who then spends thousands on courses has no idea about value and there fore probably cant be taught to trade. a life time licence is cheap for anyone who uses it, but how many people use it for a life time. I dont have a thing against gyms - same as i dont have a thing against educators....my guess is the same things happen - many join and few reach their goals. To a large extent I dont think even all the tutoring and help will help some people trade - they either dont have the requisite, skill, will power, drive, passion or whatever it is. I think you misunderstand - I felt i was upsold the whole time.....and for those that understand selling techniques its natural for you as a business to do so, and employ these techniques. Asking me for money is not the only upsell that can occur....but its still a selling technique.....you know the late night telecommercials - "wait send no money.", "we have people waiting for your call", money back guarantees......all these are designed to bring people in. and all of this is largely as a result of me not really liking this, hence the subjective nature of it....it maybe appeals to some other people. examples are such as - you will only find that out when you become a full member, there are different levels (platinum, diamonds levels), the back slapping for getting a few ticks, the we have spent so much money on these indicators etc. It is all about up selling - I would hasten to think that this probably is the one thing that really irks people about vendors.....but its normal as you are running a business....but if you dont think you are doing it or its not deliberate, then I have to say you probably should be in marketing - your a natural! If I was in your business I would probably do the same. thanks.....I hope I was impartial enough or disclosed my biases, and while for me the result is not a positive one I also understand others may find value in it, and I would hope that they would apply any of the ideas, red flags to any vendors or rooms they might subscribe to - this would certainly weed out the real scammers. For some people you can tell them this is a scam, and they will still invest. I dont think you are in this category, but IMHO there are enough red flags for others to think so. did you see my PM to you last week prior to posting this?