SIUYA

Journal - Best bet is to search the net - get ideas and develop your own - It should be a living project and will change to suit you - ensuring the premise is that it should be used for review - to show what yo do well, and what you do poorly. Just recording trades is pointless. You also should record not just thoughts of the trades, but also feeling for why you took trades off early, or did not take certain trades - it can be revealing. I am a technical trader - but I will used broad based macro themes or ideas to help frame any skew i might put into my thoughts. This usually affects any longer term trades I have......But I will basically be happy to be long or short if intraday trading depending on the market mood for the day. (There is nothing wrong with only going one way IMHO). I am discretionary rules based - but have been trying to automate aspects of it. (dont read too much into how I do it - I have my own issues based on past history and personal characteristics not applicable to you) IMHO - the minimum amount is an open question as a lot will depend on your circumstances, age, ability to refund, love of leverage, ability to scale up if profitable..... I do think most new traders start off undercapitalised with stars in their eyes and possible returns.......but I would say that you can make a living trading only a few contracts, so you dont need a lot of money - unless you plan on being wrong a lot. The focus from your point of view should be to get everything right first, and then worry about how much money you will need - if that makes sense....dont quit the day job yet.

no its pronounced f....k u angle 111 (my bad)

1....ensure you have a plan for why, how and when you do things - this should be a working set of notes evolving. 2...make sure you are profitable using the SIM account - and consistent - doubling the account on crazy bets does not count. then be prepared to throw real money in the market and understand SIM trading is not like real trading. 3....have enough cash in the account to make it worth while. 4....keep a journal and review it For 1 and 4 there is plenty of advice for good examples of these....but if you dont do both of these then it may be harder, and they are good habits to get into until things are ingrained mentally. They are also good habits to review when experienced. 5....When you start trading and loose money - dont search for the holy grail in some coach or mentor and spend the rest of your money chasing a solution that probably wont work either. Review what you did, learn from yourself first and then seek advice once you understand what you are doing wrong (or advice when stuck - you have to work it out yourself - otherwise buy my book it wont help but what the hell it makes for an interesting door stop). Ask as many questions as possible and review and think about those and how they relate to you. 6....if it all does not work - dont worry - its not the end of the world, its not suited to everyone. Get on with your life and do something else worthwhile. Until then welcome, and enjoy.

is that email pronounced--- f...k angle 111 ?

slightly off topic - they are actually trading well -regardless of common sense. While the rules may be a little rough, for the the store keeper there is no upside in not following the rules. Hence if they have to ask or risk a large fine for not asking once then they will always ask - there is no benefit in not asking - until shoppers go elsewhere because of the hassles. (one of the reasons pure prohibition does not always work - there comes a point whereby its profitable to break the rules) The story resonated with me when I was asked for my ID for beers in a bowling alley in Tennessee as they were the rules - the funny part was she had no idea what a passport was, no idea where Australia was as a state of the USA, and when I assured her that if the authorities came in and checked she would not get into trouble she gave me the beers....but until that assurance she was not prepared to serve me as they were the rules - strange but true. Back to trading - as a discretionary trader I would love to automate the trading with rules a computer could follow - I would have to be happy to follow through the drawdowns and dumb trades and be a true believer (one of the problems) - it is slowly happening and a lot has to do with mind set and assurances (a few backtests will not wipe 20 years of ingrained discretionary trading) and it is the trade off between recognising a rules based system while getting every winner will also take some of the "obvious" losers as well. - maybe thats part of the 'rules of the universe' associated with the trade off....plus its the feeling of control - maybe I feel like I want to make my own silly mistakes as opposed the programmed ones. Point being - rules are cultural and fit one person and not another - societies rules have to by their nature be a little different - no matter how crazy. A comedian the other day made a good comment - the difference between Australian and the UK when it comes to rules.(try the accents) "The Brits love to make rules, and are very proud of following the rules - except when it comes to actually following them then its "oh those rules are for others to follow", the Australians on the other hand are very laid back and casually say "-nah rules who cares - --- so long as you follow the rules."

In Principle I agree with you Predictor - but I think you want to be careful of beating a snake with a stick. It might work, it might also bite you. You need rules to be able to apply principles. I think you are 100% correct - too many new traders try and apply rules rigidly without applicable thought to their principles of what they are trying to achieve AS WELL AS without an adequate philosophy of how the market works, and how how to profit from that. example - this was not a poor application of the rules - it could be seen as simply having poor rules applied without much regard to anything else. Alternatively you stick to the rules and just accept you will miss opportunities. What you are saying is you had a faulty belief system - and yet then you want to throw out the rules and focus more on a belief system? In this case didn't you really have a faulty/inadequate (for want of a better word) set of rules? Principles have more holes than rules.....you apply rules to maximise the benefits of the principles. ie; you need both. Principles are also harder to quantify to see if they work. Again you need to apply both, otherwise, you will change the rules - and never work out which are the best way to represent your principles. Rules )good ones properly applied) eliminate the arbitrariness that usually kills many accounts Rules just become ingrained and habitual - they still exist. I understand where you are coming from and agree with you, and yet it sounds a little like, this indicator does not work so i will use this one. For me you need rules to implement principles. Rules of thumb v rules of law maybe? (applicable to discretionary v fully automatic systemised systems) Anyway I like the thought process. (Semantics maybe - Today EURUSD I applied a rule based on the principle if its crazy vol, and ECB is talking then trade smaller - I still traded following my rules - bought in the morning sold when my rules told me to get out. I never shorted again (even though if I followed my rules it would have made money) as one of my principals is that I dont trade reversal days well as my previous rules have been shown to not work so well on such days - missed opportunity, but it fits in with my overriding principal of maintaining capital.) Today they worked well together.

One of the key requirements for ensuring trust in the equity (or any market) is an assurance that it will be fair, orderly and can be seen to satisfactorily deal with areas or market manipulation. Dont forget that the key participants are not necessarily (however are bec0ming increasingly so) the short term speculators. If you scare others away either by - sending them broke, or loosing their trust - then the market dies. Fairness is about ensuring not that irresponsible people are protected -it is about treating people equally, and also understanding mistakes occur. (mistakes - not deilberately manipulated theft or investments over time). continued mistakes usually results in dismissal or removal of a licence - hence they are not really protected. Lets ask Knight securities today? Knight Market-Making Unit Says It Had I would say the major difference is one is a loss of liquidity due to normal external market forces and not manipulation by internal market liquidity providers, whilst one is a result of the actions of market participants as a whole - it is a very open subject. One could be seen as due to manipulation, the other not. Would you want a terrorist organisation to not have their trades cancelled should they profit out of their actions? What about an insider trader? again a lot goes back to fair and orderly - I can tell you there was a day Oct 1997 -whereby (I can laugh and say theoretically/practically - I was the only person in the world at that time willing to make a market in a few instruments - everyone else on the floor skedaddled. Was if fair or orderly - did these other people fail to meet their obligations to make markets.??) Oussssstraaaalia mate - Sydney Futures floor then equity options floor at the ASX.

Ed Seykota - Win or lose, everybody gets what they want out of the market. Some people seem to like to lose, so they win by losing money. Understand why you are doing this, what you hope to get out of it and if you are starting from a base whereby you want to 'have fun', 'get sympathy','make a little extra pocket money','feel the big swinger', 'feel good/smart about beating the market' - then it will make things harder to actually make money.

I agree with pretty much most of the issues others have said - I have traded a lot of stocks (currently dont touch them as there are certain compliance restrictions as a result of my partners work - and hence trade mainly futures and FX now - switched gradualy 10 yrs ago, more permanently 4 yrs ago, exclusively now due to compliance) they are different and Zdo states it beautifully. Other simple issues to take into consideration over and above leverage, costs, margin etc; - market open and close - FX is addicitve, you need to close it, where as your own equity market generally closes - you are forced to take a break. Equity markets offer many, many varied opportunities, better longer terms moves (partially irrelevant if day trading - but think boom opps) Equitys give some measure of value - PE, cash flows, industries strengths. - how do you value FX or oil, or gold. So this may cloud any philosophical rationale you might have. Futures - no issues with shorting, borrowing stock, rights issues, ipos, less paperwork - need to watch expiries, and arguably economic releases. Compensation schemes- re MFG and PFG issues. Look at which future to trade - they trade differently - some suit different personalities and ideas - also look at the slippage - some can shock - eg; what looks like a nice moving instrument might be one that moves violently on occasion which is what forms it move. understand limit up and limit down issues. Go for it - try - it might be either better, worse, complimentary.

investing or trading? plus if you want to compare asset classes - use the same leverage and have the same liquidity then given the volatility of stocks your percentages will be higher there - so its not a fair comparison. Talk about the risks as well as the potential for returns.

this is a pretty good all round calendar as well. Economic Calendar | DailyFX Forex Events Calendar | DailyFX http://www.dailyfx.com/calendar/bank-calendar.html also google 'central bank release calendar'

I was on a trading holiday May 10, so did not notice it. Re busted trades - different rules for different countries I guess, however as I understand it busted trades are done whereby they are re-booked at a fair price - this way the auto traders who automatically re-hedge some where else are not penalised for doing what they do, and at the same time it does not take other players out of the game if they go broke, The other reason why they were done was as it forces people to ensure that it is in a fair and orderly market. Too many fat fingers could occur - selling 1million shares at 1 cent etc......no matter how many checks you have errors will occur and hence I think there is validity in re-booking trades on those rare occurances. Back on the floor there were always occurances whereby negotiations to cancel errors occured and it depended on who you dealt with and if they liked you. (I still have my black list of people that owe me money ) At the worst case you could go to the exchange and they would bust the trade as it never should have occured as it was outside market parameters. Otherwise imagine how easy it would be to rip clients faces off - not good for market trust. Hence I think busting trades in those rare events is valid - not a crash, not a plane into the building event, but a flash crash yes - subjective of course.

You dont need to use leverage to trade -

the first, 2nd or third time it hit the line, what about other lines that could have been drawn;)? It would have been just as co-incedental had it broken the line when he spoke as well. It always astounds me how often markets react when they hit 50% retracements as well, except those times they dont.

The answer to this Q for many is - when it starts to loose it becomes an investment. IMHO if you make an investment or a trade using cash, then aren't you really just substituting one asset class for another (even if its in the same currency). So regardless of you being an investor or a trader all people are trying to do is offset risk v returns in a relative bet, the rest largely depends on liquidity, access to opportunity, risk appetite, time frame of investment, and probably most importantly the source of returns. For me, an investor is one that uses something such as a machine, land, business etc; and operates and controls it to produce returns - the rest of us - even the long term mutual funds - are just traders. When it comes to FX, then I would classify the market as speculators/traders and hedgers. They maybe hedging an investment or a trade in another country, otherwise its a trade, as there is no means of control or being able to operate the FX market so to speak. I think about it this way........when you have cash in the bank, when does it become an investment as opposed to savings, or is it always a trade?

I know plenty of traders who do care about both their capital and how much leverage they can get out of it (I think this may just be semantics here ForexTraderX) The first question that should always be asked when someone quotes their returns is - how much leverage are you using as it puts all the others into perspective. Too often people quote "i made xxxx%" - irrelevant without knowing what that is based on, and those measures you quote help quantify that. Be wary of those who say - 'I can make you $1mil, I just need access to $10m and for that you only need to put up $200,000" Leverage is a tool to enhance or destroy returns faster or slower depending on the system. To be able to properly measure things historically you need to understand both the capital base and the amount of leverage used..... however in determining how much leverage to actually trade then - the "sleep well" or "heat" measure is probably the best measure their is IMHO.

Actually often people with no substance can often help others because they either ask the 'dumb' questions others often wont, they generally can help clarify some 'dead end' positions or they can show that there are areas of no substance that can be ignored. however you are correct - once an agenda other that that of solving a problem or having a discussion is in place then it all goes to pot. Unfortunately Predictor - this is an open forum for discussion - and so by its nature is open to the good and bad of it. There are private discussions i am sure you can have with others.....that then has its own good and bad. Its like taking a knife to a gun fight. Both tools will do the same job, its just one is the wrong venue for it.

there cannot really be a wrong or a right here. there is really more a question of is something reliable enough to make money on. Which leads to the next question.... A....by using discretion. or by applying other external extra non-TA inputs. (I am also with wrbtrader - there are distinctions between using automation and fully systemised automation, and discretionary elements after the systemised rules have been programmed. Once built a system either has discretion or not. ) the other thing that comes to mind is - if you are running a completely automated system and you are not using technical analysis (as it may be defined) then are all the other inputs factual or discretionary?

so is this about the starving children, the greedy bankers, the fact that people play games and it forms an important part of any countries culture, the waste of money or it might be something that makes people feel good......what a downer ingot (I thought i was bad - welcome back to TL).....I hope you volunteered to help in some horrible places before you decided to start trading maybe you could combine them and come up with something like the hunger games, or something like banker throwing to the starving masses.

but these are not syncronised swimming, archery, athletics, gymnastics and badminton I love when people get hyped about the Olympics and then dont care about the sports.....yesterday watched a bit of gymnastics review - the first time since pre WWII that team GB qualified for the mens gymnastics (or something similar). Home crowd, good team, Olympics - the seats were mainly empty. ...., then walking home last night after being out, as well as being in the pub with some friends before hand....every TV was tuned to the beach volleyball......need I say more Plus - Isle of Mann TT - fantastic!

Interesting post... Maybe you need all to make a discussion a discussion. Otherwise you can fall into the other problems of group think. As part of furthering the discussion - as this does not appear to be one where by you are looking for a solution..... Could I make some thoughts. 1. The Problem Finder and maybe there in lies the key - phrasing things as a problem requiring a solution, rather than a discussion is a good start. Maybe not everything requires a solution, maybe its just their to promote free thinking brainstorming, or to illicit personal experiences. 2. The Instigator/attacker/challenger yes, the problem children.....unfortunately some people are just plain twats. Constructive chellengers should be welcomed, and I think the key is - keep an open mind. 3. The Non Informational Reply often good to break up the process if getting sidetracked, injects humour or maybe seen a different tack. 4. The Interrupter as you note, often required for the discussion, and part of the dynamic. A Type 5 response is the best response but very rare.. 5. The Synthesizer but, hang on are you looking for a discussion or a solution to a problem? ................ all too often the question/discussion/original idea might be coming from the wrong angle.....it may not be the fault of the participants, but that the wrong question is asked.

I dont view anything TRO says as justification - if I could paraphase him all he says is - keep it simple, and dont think too much about it - be the RAT. Sorry I was being a little cheeky - when you asked about how to see the trades before they happened, I asked what platform/system/front end you were using, there are many ways to give you a heads up when on of his methods might be used to enter a trade. I could not care what strategy system you might be using. I use a similar method (and yet also completely different) to Averys - and I suggest most people who are profitable do similar things - I try to buy things that go up, and sell things that go down, (its very hard to make money any other way) and use some rather simple methods. A lot of them you cannot post in advance - they require discretion for 1...do I want to be bullish or bearish, 2...is the market going to agree with me, 3....if and when it does I have no idea when this could occur....and for how long this might continue.....this is a game of probabilities for me. Simple fact for me is, the key is in the trade management, and entry is just one element of it. (I would love to automate many things I do, but so far I have been unsuccessful at that aspect of it - semi automation is the best I can manage) He has been very forthcoming when people have asked him questions, (maybe a little cryptic) however it appears you have other issues with him that you are not disclosing. As others suggest - start you own thread on it, otherwise I am sure if you asked questions related to his thoughts on this thread he might be forthcoming with answers.

not taking sides, however..... The Olympics Will Lose London Tourism Money - Forbes I have zero interest in the hype and ceremony and shudder at the organisational skills that will accompany the events. (A taxi driver told my partner that the olympic organisers sent out forms to them telling them "to avoid disruptions and minimise issues during the games, ideally you should try and work from home"), but i do think like ANY project good can come from it, and if money is spent wisely then who knows, maybe it will be ok. (has anyone asked what happens to the planes that are shot down over London by the missles on the buildings roofs over here??) Otherwise, I managed to snag some tickets to the boxing (courtesy a friend), and will be supporting the paralympians instead, I will likely watch it in the back ground but that is it. (very un Australian not to be a rabid sports follower, but seriously how many atheltics events do you watch in between the 4 years - prefer other sports)

TLUser, I think Avery has actually answered previously that there is some discretion involved, but its easy to see in advance - first 20 pips from the high or low, then red or green bar.....watch high or low.....otherwise you could set and forget an auto trader. There are various money management techniques you can choose after entering. All TRO has provided is a rather simple and quite effective way for triggering an entry and some simple rules to follow to do so, which might actually help some new traders focus on simplicity....whats wrong with that? what system are you using, i am sure someone could help you program the alert to come up, and then all you have to do is choose to take it or not. and no I am not a TRO cohort, cultist or anything like that.....I just think he does his thing, its straightforward and if it works for him then great, and I dont believe there is one ANSWER, just possibilities.

keep on track Steve, - he licks his balls because he can, he sniffs butts, he probably eats s..t and rolls in the smell of dead animals......he is a dog, he is happy.why would the dog be embarrassed in front of you Could you please point to a post in the thread you talked about which explains your previous post. I cant see the point you are trying to make, and as i dont trade the ES, I dont feel like reading 500+ pages. Or if you are going to make the post here, then could you explain what you mean. Showing a chart without explanation just gets off topic. There are clearly lots of types of bots, from those that execute and order over the day, breaking it up, to those trying to arb and spread, to those taking speculative positions based on order flow. maybe there is scope for a new thread "how to pickup and profit from the bots" As there are many variations of what is scalping, and bots etc, could you expand by how you can see these happening and how you profit from them.... when you say "One of the most interesting is rather simple in that it intercepts order flow, analyzes the content and matches it to context (order "condition" for example)...checking for acceleration that usually preceeds a move as orders matched exhaust volume in the queue (at each price). Within that process it produces a pro-rata estimation of what it will take to "tip" the scales and start to move price directionally....from that point its not a great leap to producing an order, either to take profit or go flat...thats the basic outline of one of many automated scripts at work in today's market. " thanks.