MadMarketScientist

I think we're on the same basic page, just coming at it from different directions. I always think there's a place for "art" in trading -- call it a 90/10 rule for me. But, I think that 10% is the hardest thing for most to master, and if we're ever going to see more people succeed than fail it probably has to be as a result of some fairly strict rules that keeps them "alive" and then hope the art can be developed. Most tend to washout before that I think, and many times either chasing a bogus EA or having no clue of whey they are buying or where they should exit. Just doing a transaction. Funny you mention Joe Ross, years ago I did same, bought an expensive book that looked really cool -- but I could never make any money at it -- maybe not being the author and in their head was the reason -- I had high hopes but didn't make it for me. It's on a shelf or packed in one of many boxes packed with books, systems, software - I could open a museum.

TheDude - you do make an excellent point. I think part of the problem is many people come up with trading rules that are completely inflexible and not dynamic to market conditions as they change. What I might disagree on is the fact that there are many who can trade successfully without having a number of clear cut rules and an exact trading plan. While context and subjectivity can be quite powerful, I haven't seen many traders in my time possess those skills to the level necessary to succeed. If you do or someone gets that level it can be fantastic but it would probably end up being the exception. What I think most need are those clear rules, almost mechanical perhaps up to 90% and then use experience for the other 10% and flexibility. Or, ensure their mechanical system is not rigid, meaning it can adapt immediately to changing market conditions, as in more volatile markets with bigger range it adjusts targets and stops, when it's quiet those contract. I feel that can work. You only have to look at Wall Street and the fortunes the big firms are making off of their program trades to know it's possible. But that's a whole other conversation.... Thanks for your input.

I can virtually guarantee you that you can teach 10 people a very effective system with clear-cut rules. And, 9 out of 10 of them will end up breaking those rules, usually immediately. It is one of the hardest things to do, to have the discipline to follow a system and its rules, even if it is actually a profitable one at that. It's just very difficult for human nature when following those rules also lead to loss. We just instinctively always want to "fix" it. Fight or flight when it comes to trading.

Do you like a specific timeframe with your beans and cattle trades?

I'll be interested to see how your RIG trade works out if you go for it. I do see the set-up you're discussing using the methodology outlined in this thread. The reason I'm intrigued by it is on a totally different approach I take on a 130 minute chart it's in a short zone from $66, on a 60 minute short from $68, though on my 30 minute chart the short happened from $83 back on 4/28 and already completed down to price projections of $74-$77 (obviously exceeded that) This should be a fascinating one to watch because I can see the potential power of your set-up your watching which would run contrary to these set-ups.

I would agree the Interactive Brokers option can be a good one -- if you trade there you will get the data for free. Their charting is decent, but you could also get the Ninja Trader platform for free and connect it to Interactive Brokers data. As long as you weren't requiring streaming tick data it is a good solution in the low/no cost. Of course, it means trading with IB, but that can be a good thing considering their breadth of products in a universal account including stock, futures, options and forex (though only full size, no mini) plus many international exchanges. I like Tradestation a lot as well but as the prior poster mentioned you do have some minimum trading volumes or you pay a monthly platform fee which I think is $200+. Datafeeds are definitely an area not to cut corners on since it's your primary link between you and everything you need to make your trades.

I think we're actually all on the same page so hopefully we can avoid making it personal. We probably just all have different ideas what people want in chat, or what would make it appealing. I don't know how often I can be in chat, but I'll at least try to make an effort to make some contribution in there. For everyone else it's obviously voluntary. In the past I have been part of some chat rooms, many times less for the actual analysis and more just for the camaraderie since trading can be an isolating profession and sometimes it's nice to have "virtual" drinking buddies in a particularly bad day. At any rate, I'm open to anything to making TL a great place to spend time.

martinguitar - if you decide to put this together and get it going and active, I'd be happy to put it in the weekly email digest sent out to everyone to let them know it's up and running. Just let me know and will try to support it. Thanks.

emg - I commend you for staying so committed to posting your trades -- it's not always an easy thing to do. I thought maybe would be a good time if you have a moment to post overall your general approach and strategy. I'm sure it's on prior pages but for people new to the thread (like me) would be good to get a good summary. Also, you mention you also I assume trade Beans and Cattle -- are those markets you try to trade regularly or only when you see some criteria met?

In my opinion, this whole crisis, and the series of debacles really since the peak of the markets in the late 1990s early 2000s is the reason I actually worry more about my long term holdings -- investments in mutual funds and stocks, and the reason I feel much more in control and empowered with my short-term to daytrading activities. Most would probably argue it is the opposite, that the risk is on the short-term/day trading but I'd argue that has anyone made anything "long-term" in the last decade? And, how many times have you been wiped out 25%, 50% or more? Of course you have to be able to master the short-term, which is why we're all here -- to improve and sharpen those skills. There are definitely times I feel I should take everything out of the buy and hold category and actively trade it all since you never truly know what is around the next corner.

You can also have a programmer write a small application you can run that would just check to see Tradestation is logged in like every couple of seconds, and then if it detects not, it would just put your password back and login. Probably take a good programmer an hour or two at most and wouldn't take much system resource.

I personally am not trading with Tradestation Securities so my review is strictly on a platform basis -- charting and data. Having used Tradestation since it was TS 2000 and actually Super Charts before that I feel I've been with them through everything. When I first got data it came over my cable line -- no, not through a cable modem but literally a box that you installed that would enable it to get a datafeed without anything to do with the internet. Of course this was inconsistent and most nights you had to download a complete dataset since you missed so much. Then came (finally) the internet feed and TS 8. I can say that I've used almost every platform out there and couldn't see changing. I have uptime close to 100% - sure, it's not perfect but years ago I used to have to carry around a key to put on my system so remebering the old days certainly makes me appreciate what we have now. The charting is superior, there are numberous indicators and customization is more than possible. If there was a downside I'd say if you don't trade with Tradestation they hit you pretty hard on the platform fee. And, it would be nice if the number of markets would be expanded - appreciate the Eurex (some) being added but if you want a real international lineup you won't get it here. I like the new additions as well such as Range/Momentum bars and it's about time on that. Overall, given I could use anything, I still find Tradestation is an ideal solution for me.

wjrusnak thanks for the understanding on the emails - keeps the lights on and everything else about the site free. Good work keeping it positive on the week with your trades. I'll attach mine for last two weeks just so people don't think I'm throwing darts at a board to pick my trades (ok, sometimes) but I had a really good week last week, this week was so-so, I made one big error yesterday that knocked me down a notch. Still, always looking forward to Monday to get back in the game. I would say I agree that everyone has a lot to offer at all experience levels and it doesn't always require full transparency, as long as the intent is to contribute, share and learn I think we're all going to be better traders as a result.

No plans for it to be on the forums, just intended for new people to the site. Thanks.

I think it's like anything, we always need some "power users" to be involved to make it interesting -- more than likely people come and go without saying anything or contributing. So the Chat likely counts on a few key players to do a lot of the commentary/discussion and that starts to bring people out and involved. Maybe someone can have the idea to hold a chat on a specific topic, market, real-time calls, etc... and we can have some posts on here promoting it to generate some interest and participation.

Don't trust optimizations your run on strategies unless every outcome of your various variables yields a positive result AND don't forget to input both commission and slippage into your calculations or you could be in for a surprise.

Hello, just click the "Don't Show Me This Again" link on the right hand side and it won't come up for you again. Thanks.

I find it fascinating how so much of what is mentioned is clearly the psychology of trading. From the mention of the moods, to the desire to constantly fix what might not be broken. I always think that trading is actually totally unnatural for most of us. Human nature I don't think typically fits with how most of us are made up. We don't like to be wrong, we have a desire to fix things, we flee discomfort and uncomfortable situations, etc.... it takes a lot of work to break millions of years of coding Not sure how many saw the story, but Goldman Sachs in Q1 didn't have a single losing day of trading. They made at least $25 million per day, many days over $100 million. And not a single negative day. Much to most of this is done with programs, and I would bet the removal of human emotion. I would assume there were a number of losing trades in their totals, but the computers relentlessly stick to the plan. Of course it probably doesn't hurt to be the "house" in trading and literally be able to move the markets....

mike21 -- To answer your question, and this is what works for me - others might have different requirements or ideas.....I know for my personal psychology I'm not going to be able to trade a system that has less than 50% winners, even if in the long term it's profitable. Understanding my personal psychology, and looking at tables for example by Van Tharp who shows how many losses in a row you might get with less than 50% winners and I just realized it wouldn't work for me. I personally look for 60%+ winners -- 65%+ even better. I have no expectation that I'm going to get 90% winners, etc... so for me this 60-65+ area is what I aim for. Next, I want it to be a market that trades with frequency -- I get a bit bored if I have to wait a long time on set-ups -- I want frequency and the ability to finish quickly, at least on a good day. I want to make sure my avg. gain vs. avg. loss is at least 1 to 1 and of course, the higher the better, net of commissions and slippage. I also want to ensure the market is tradeable - some on paper look great but when you try to trade and execute it is a totally different story. I also need the market I trade to maintain its volatility and trading range -- I don't like to constantly like to chase what's hot this week - I want something I can be trading 3 months from now and a year from now. Hope that explains it a bit more. Thanks.

sneo - the purpose of theis thread is for owners of the UTA to discuss their trade plans, what they are learning, get help, etc... it's a sponsored thread as you can tell by the section this is in by the publisher of the UTA so it's a "home base" for their customers to go and chat about it - of course the general public is free to see it as well if there's anything of interest. Thanks.

Siuya - Agree on your point, for me it was realizing that 60% - 65% winners means being wrong....a lot....but that's ok and isn't bad trading Snowbird - I think people sometimes choose "auto-trade" expecting their computer will be this magical cash machine - never happens, but there can be some great benefits to having the system trade by your rules -- since you won't constantly derail the plan and override the strategy. I always have a rule with any "manual" adjustment to an entry, or my strategy, I better be right 2 out of 3 times I tweak something or I'm just killing my chance of profits AgeKay -- Can't tell you how many times I've been in on those exact same trades as you. It makes one firm believers in conspiracy theories -- it's so freakin maddening at times this game we play. Just yesterday I was literally a tick or two away from goal, missed it then proceeded to have to trade 2 more hours just to get back to a point I was before I was a tick away from goal. Great rewards with trading but easily the greatest challenge most of us will ever face Zdo - I'd say my worst trades ever have been the ones with no stop or no exit plan -- can't tell you how many times I would have been better off just to exit and reset TheDude - my solution on that is to have my rules fully detailed before I take a trade then it's my job to execute the plan -- from there I do everything I can not to second guess. If I want to later reassess my rules or what I did that's fine, but as long as I followed the plan perfectly intraday I do anything I can not to get down on myself even if it doesn't go my way gandalf33 -- you have a great point and area of concern for virtually anyone who trades unless you simply don't have emotions (now that would make trading easier!) -- what I tell people is if you can't handle being wrong, and being wrong every single day then trading is not going to work for you. I try to remind myself of a baseball analogy where you can be in the Hall of Fame batting .300 -- which means you reached the pinnacle of your game, but still "fail" 70% of the time. A suggestion is to go back and back test on paper your trade strategy - record every trade and walk it through yourself, don't have a system do it. Then look at the losing streaks and winning streaks. Look at the worst losing streak and double it. Then ask yourself, if that occurs starting tomorrow can your trade account or psyche take it? If not, adjust your risk, adjust your position size or your strategy. Great feedback so far - thanks all!

I've asked myself this question many times - and have also asked many others. What has been the single greatest challenge, roadblock, struggle, or hurdle that has either stood in your way - if you're currently trading successfully, or or is currently in your way and preventing your ability to get to the promised land? Which of course would be consistently profitable. I didn't say always profitable, but over any stretch of time you are showing profits. I'm so curious about the replies, and I think a lot of people can learn from the answer to this, whether you're still struggling or already made it, that we'll make the "Post of the Week" the contribution to this thread that is the most thought provoking, or insightful, or maybe just entertaining (we all have our trading war stories!) I can tell you personally for me perhaps my biggest struggle was not understanding over-optimization and curve-fitting. I would use software back in the mid 1990s that looked so incredible and I was already spending the money. Then, I would try and trade in real-time all of those "custom" settings and it was a train wreck. Whether it was the broker holding orders (this was before all the electronic trading today) or my optimizations were really just straight luck, never to repeat in the future it was a very difficult education and costly. It also led to me developing some bad habits - also giving up way too soon when a strategy ran into some adversity - I constantly tried to "fix it" which meant more curve-fitting and more bad results in real-time. When I finally understood what makes a robust system, and what is acceptable loss vs. what is not, I was able to turn the corner. I'm curious what you all think as well.

Atto, I'm with you - we're on the same page. I trade every single day. My business partner trades daily as well. I currently trade Crude Oil, Dax Futures, and forex - usually GBPUSD though lately have looked a bit at BP and EC Futures. I wish I had more time to manage my stock investments and that's an objective of mine for this year -- what happened in the markets just a few days ago was a strong reminder of why I need to take more control of the mid to longer term as I'm usually focused on the short-term. The good news is we've been doing it for many years and definitely understand what you, the trader goes through -- and have experienced all the peaks and valleys. Thanks for the contribution, I hope you keep coming back and doors always open to ideas and suggestions to maintaining this professional trader's community. And hopefully, bringing more people to the site. The more we have participating, the more value for all. Thanks!

AgeKay -- TL has always been advertiser supported - and in that email promo came from the same agency that James has used for the last year. There are considerable expenses running a site like TL and the only way to offset is advertising. Like any advertising, you can just ignore -- I'm with you though - headlines like that are a turn-off because as experienced traders we can sniff out the unlikely quickly but that email was scheduled a long time ago. Tams -- I did contact you directly, we're following the exact same protocols as James - he showed us over a couple of weeks how often posts get reported, and then later removed - you have to give us a chance to remove them -- it isn't instantaneous but we're very quick -- just report the post and we get emailed -- the one you were talking about we removed the URLs in under an hour. You guys are very important to us -- but hopefully you can show us some patience and understanding as well. Appreciate it if you could. Thanks.

Brownsfan, You don't think "Mad Market Scientist" is on my birth certificate? Ok, fair enough. I'm based in Southern California (yes, correct no pro football team) and Steven is my name. One of my business partners on the website is located in Ohio I believe he's outside of Cleveland. I will assume by your handle your Ohio as well or at least that's where your allegiances run...