DugDug

day traders care about price but they dont care about value (cheap or expensive).

I looked at the trial - and admittedly fairly briefly over a day or two. For me it was simple I just did not like the feel of it - so it is more a personal vibe than anything else... a bit like apple v PC. It looked like it had a lot of potential - functions, bells and whistles and for those who like beta testing I would say go for it. For me - I have other projects to do in my spare time at present.

I dont collect intraday data so cant help there, but I initially collected a lot of EOD data from CSI Unfair Advantage - they have a good range of products that can be bought so you can get EOD data back from 20 years ago. they were recommended by others. The data is generally very good, a few hiccups, but as mentioned above that might because a few days get out of sync. The real advantage they offered was a way to back adjust continuous contracts and a fair bit of flexibility to manipulate the data into the manner we required. They also offer stocks - but I did not look at them. But as stated for me something that is close enough was all I required....so I wont be much help sorry....but would be very interested in any final conclusions of the thread.

historical data is drawn live data so now you understand why there are issues collecting data then - and why accurate data is expensive.... and all the things that can go wrong with it.....there should be no confusion. There are plenty of discussions already about issues with tick data. with daily data, there should be less issues but there still are.... I go close enough as i dont have the time, resources or inclination to even wonder down the path of data collection.

I have attached a word document that has some information for futures, rolling and longer term trading issues regards backtesting and the effect of backwardation and contango. It is simple and general - if you dont agree with it or would like to add to it feel free to download it, amend it and upload it, noting the changes in the thread....so its a free and open discussion. I hope it helps anyone get started in answering some questions regards the issue. futures and rolling.doc

I have attached a word document that has some information for futures, rolling and longer term trading issues regards backtesting and the effect of backwardation and contango. It is simple and general - if you dont agree with it or would like to add to it feel free to download it, amend it and upload it, noting the changes in the thread....so its a free and open discussion. I hope it helps anyone get started in answering some questions regards the issue. futures and rolling.doc

thats is why ultimately any back test is not necessarily going to give a 100% view of what may happen in reality. Unfortunately collecting accurate data is costly. I used a group called CSI data for daily EOD data. They came highly recommended etc; etc; even in their data there are discrepancies and issues. We went through and investigated a few of them, did some research as to why, and then adjusted a few things.... is this hindering or helping - I dont know. But ultimately a back test over a longer period of time a few tick differences should not make a difference. With more high frequency trading I would assume every tick can make the difference. I guess once you get down to collecting your own data and daily reviewing it is ultimately a final resort..... I think you will unfortunately find this everywhere. It all depends on what you require it for. I have taken the view I just want data that is close enough.... and then I will take any test with a grain of salt.

Personally I dont use the DOM very much - but also feel like its good to have there for entering orders. But when it comes to reading/listening to it, the analogy of a trading floor comes to mind when watching it....you get the feel for the noise, the excitement, the panic, the quite times that you just do not get unless you are watching a tick chart. A 5min, 60min etc; chart will not tell you about the vibe of the move. It all takes practice. I used to be a floor trader and on a busy day you might do 200 individual trades or different quantities, and on other days you might do three trades. A chart would never tell you which was which. Of course all this depends on strategy and personality. I dont really have the desire to watch and trade as a scalper, or to do more than 10 trades a day any more, so watching the DOM does not make sense.... as BF said it can be mesmerizing.....a secret hypnotic subliminal tool be the brokers whispering .... "trade, just buy or sell, or do both many times ---- we dont care so long as you give us the brokerage." that quote " It's not just about how much you make. It's about how much you keep." reminded me of the similar one we had which was "its easy making money - the hard part is hanging on to it"

wait until someone starts the Yoda trading method.....then the language problems will be comical, plus given that some countries seem to have actually accepted Jedi as a religion as there are supposedly enough practitioners of it, imagine the dogma and discussions! short you are when you are neither long or not.

I will see what I can do. There are a few threads here already touching on the subject but as this is generally a day trading forum, frankly the best thing for most people to do who wish to longer term trading and concern themselves with this is probably direct them to a more appropriate website. Or do exactly as you mentioned which is look up the multitude of examples available on the wbe - goggle "backwardation and contango" However, I think putting a few things together should be easy enough. It depends on the strategy that a long term trader is trading as to weather backardation or contango is a major consideration. For some it complements, for others it detracts. For some it is necessary, for some its irrelevant. This like many other subjects is full of different reasons for doing things for long term traders....eg; for when to roll over, the importance of correct data when backtesting, how to determine roll over times, seasonality. So it would be broad based and generalist.

This idea of BIAS is the key of TTT to me. (While I might not be a true adherent to the complete method yet it) It resonates with the idea of putting everything into context, and to developing a trading style that suits you as an individual, and getting in sync with the market that you are trading. (I believe that unless you can get this sync in some form you will never make money, as you will always either get chopped out, or will never be able to run profits enough) The perfect example of this introduction of getting in sync with a market is "trade with the trend". There are many examples of people who seem to be able to make money when trading with the trend, AND AT THE SAME TIME, there are those that are able to trade counter trend and also make money at the same time, in the same instrument - this is because each trader is in sync with the flows they are focusing on. Take this as an example...... So far on looking at the TTT, if say I dont think it suits me to be trading counter trend - then the example being that if I determine a trend to be up, it does not work for me to be selling short....yet, if the TTT can give me the BIAS to only take longs in an uptrend this actually achieves a number of things (I hope)..... 1) it allows me to focus on one direction only...stopping the ideas of trying to extract every little move from an instrument, fretting over missing trades etc; 2) it stops me trying to run shorts in an uptrend. 3) it puts me in sync with the larger trend, this usually leads to bigger wins, lower risk entries, and less time fretting over getting stopped out. 4) it focuses the idea that I am looking to enter only the appropriate times to achieve this - ie; in the ebb and flow, these entries are pullbacks, and hence are less likely to chase a trade and buy it just before a pullback. 5) it keeps the trades that I may want to do in context. 6) it helps keep you grounded on what you are trying to achieve - profits - who cares if you only go long, and not long and short - so long as you make money. So the idea that TTT gives you a bias for me makes a lot of sense - as any instrument does not go up or down in a straight line. This I think can be applied in both a short term -intraday timeframe - as well as longer term 3-5 day swings, and even longer term trend trading. (Has anyone applied TTT to weekly charts?)

Is there a way to build your own range bars as an indicator in OEC? (I have not investigated its programing capabilities yet) I think both BF and trendup make good points either way for and against OEC policies. The important thing is consistency - if OEC change their calculation of range bars, they should give it another name, and let users determine which they want to use.....there is nothing worse than not being able to trust a system from upgrade to upgrade.

This will be dependant on how long you might wish to hold the open position for.....ie what your bigger plan/picture is. But this might make things easier to visualize. open all the natural gas contracts on offer for the say first 6 months. check out their volumes, and which trade. (the closest a re obviously the most liquid.) Then chart these together and it will give you a better visual idea of the months, spreads and the sorts of contango/backwardation issues you will have.

the root of the problem.... thats an interesting one, a combination..... fear of missing a trade - yes. Laziness of not wanting to focus on sitting in front of the screen all day for a few ticks. greed of trying to extract too much from every trade. answer - either define setups better, however isn't the holy grail? or with further analysis of what I was actually doing - it was the classic of getting chopped up with stops that were too close, as what I was wanting to achieve did not match with what I was doing (coming form a longer term perspective to more intraday trading) Answer - widen stops, reduce intraday trading - focus more on what I was trying to capture - the bigger picture. Mainly because on analyzing what it is i am trying to achieve. As a side note - the systems these days are pretty good and with DOMS etc; encourage you to trade more (if not too actively) This is entirely not necessary if you are not day trading. It only benefits the brokers, a bit like sticking a drink in front of an alcoholic and saying come on, use your discipline and not take a drink..... easy answer is to not use the system if you dont need to.

maxima - i think a very simple example of walking away might be cheaper, easier, and less painful than a trained monkey. its the same advice - give yourself something (a trick, a trigger, a trained response) to avoid the errors - and why not try something simple first? sometimes its not that obvious and there is no need to discount the obvious.....unless of course you like to make things more difficult than they might need to be. I am sure FX girl will help him out, she is very good at offering more detailed advice.

just tested it after trendup mentioned the difference between the indicators...... Results seem to be - it works and there is no bug when the indicator is not overlaid and is in its own separate area. There is a bug as it does not work for indicators that are overlaid.

ditto - factor something into your plan of how to deal with this - eg; walk away. turn off the computer. Another one is implement a checklist that you physically tick off before doing a trade. And actually read and ask yourself is this a revenge trade - if the answer is yes - dont trade. All you are trying to do is introduce muscle/brain memory to avoid these situations.

thx trendup - I know - the point i was making is that I DONT HAVE THE BUG. My data box updates when I change it. When I change the value in the properties section from say 2 to 4 to 6 and back again. the values for the MACD (or a few other random indicators) in the data box, do change. So there must be something else in the system that is set differently in our systems as I am using 3.5.07

Very funny - thanks - the other links are also hilarious as well, especially the photocopying of the computer screen. I am sure every overnight trader has had similar feelings - however as per normal this should be part of the plan...... plus it also shows why money management, position sizing, and trading with the trend etc; are so so so so so important. Personally I have had the "vomit in the bin" type of day before as well (lost 18% of that particular account in 4 days - everything became correlated and illiquid - luckily I was up 45% for the year previously but still never nice)..... there is only one thing you can do. Cut, and start again - dont let yourself be ruined and out of the game.

Hi I could not replicate the decimal bug error - mine works fine in 3.5. All I did was open a chart - in this case its a range bar chart on the 6jm0 for 10 pips. loaded two indicators by random into the chart, then changed the data box additional fraction amount...... it all worked for me as the fractional amounts automatically updated for the number of decimals. The only thing I can think of is that there may be a default override, somewhere that affects it. but for me it seemed fine. EDIT: the screen dump does not save properly using Data>Save Image as it does not include the properties OR the data box. So i cant show it. However for me it updates the decimal points in the data box as you change the data box additional fractional amount.

Hi BF - I am just trying to be polite...... It is clearly a numbers game for the head traders, its like chopping the losers quickly. It can be a lucrative deal for all parties involved at least for a time. eg; once you have the training, once you have the skills, make some money for a few years, then access to capital is easier, if you keep 80% of what you make. I reckon 8643436434 is legit, probably makes tons of money and trades like he says. I just think mentorship is a spurious name. Charge for training, then take a clip for providing capital - call it like it is.

interesting conversation....off topic but interesting..... one thing I have to comment on by 3884843? and take this how you want, this is just my two cents and I dont care who you are, or what you do..... post #24 "wouldn't be able afford my fee or 20% take of monthly profits." My experience of mentorship over the years of my trading is that its actually done for free. Seminars and charging for advice is not mentorship. I guess the business model is based on taking a clip from traders. Is there a money back guarantee if there are losses? it sounds like you have a free option here.....pretty sweet. A fee and 20% of profits sounds like a hedge fund, especially when the clients put the risk money up. From my own personal view if I found some one who could make me a lot of money and would charge me fees for it then great (I invest in hedge funds already so I know how this works) but why oh why would I want to pay them, for me to do the work? If I loved the markets - and I guess my career has been in them so I must like them some what - I would want to trade them myself, make money, etc; etc; but to be charged to do this as well. ..... sorry it just confuses me a little..... otherwise why wouldn't I just invest with you as a properly setup fund? (as I said this is not meant to be a dig, or sour milk, just something that confused me and I figure is something that possible riles others up as well, trading emini futures when you should be trading the majors seems odd, and also the sales technique of "we only take the best" into our educational series smacks of the Bernie Madoff - hence the comments.....if its legit then I guess the lesson may be that the sales might need some tweaking)

have just looked at a few charts on mine - looks AOK at a simple check using ten pips range bar on a few charts - 6E, 6A, using the latest version updated on Monday. The only thing I noticed (as I have just closed down) is that some bars are equal, in which case I would have thought a new bar should NOT have been drawn if the highs and lows of two bars next to each other are the same?

Jashanno - to post charts look at this http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f30/how-post-chart-properly-805.html

I have always thought the words manipulation, strong hands, weak hands etc; confuse. Also dont confuse the ideas of strong holders with those in different time frames, or those with smaller risk tolerances, more frequency trading methods, smaller stops etc; What is noise for some people is key information and profitable for others. The really big money ignores the noise as they have to. Also some large trend trading funds, and index funds sell weakness and buy strength. Plus not all professionals make money - then you get into the whole idea of smart v dumb money.....Thats the market! When ever using such words and concepts you also need to define other parameters as well, related to exactly what you are trying to understand. People like George Soros approach the market from the point of view that it is always wrong, while others believe the market is always right - depending on what you are trying to achieve. There is plenty of good discussion threads here. (sorry if this is more confusing - the point is that this is a discussion that will always change depending on the persons discussing it and how they view the markets)