brownsfan019

Mal - so does this mean you are going long here, short or doing nothing? I don't use elliot waves, so I'm wondering how to interrupt all of this and how you are/plan to trade it.

I did not know that, will take a look! My first trade on PT - went long 7 shares of the CAVS (homer pick) at 152.12

notouch - you are correct, that is not available here in the US. That's why I think this protrade is a neat idea and if allowed, would easily take off here in the US. If it runs like the stock market, why not... we will see. In the meantime I am checking out what 'trades' to do!! It's a fun idea.

Think you can apply your trading strategies to sports??? Take a look at this site - http://www.protrade.com It's a neat idea - a stock market type setup where you buy and sell athletes! It's free and there's no obligation to 'play'! If you are interested, send me a pm with your email address and I will send you an invite. If you decide to sign up, I earn some extra bucks to spend on my trades! Side note - I first came across this through a business magazine yesterday and the plan is to actually take this idea and start a sports stock market in real dollars. This is down the road, so don't worry about needing cash or anything to play this now, but the guys behind this think there could be a market for this, just like stocks.

Mike - I don't trade stocks anymore, but T+3 is the way it is unless you are classified as a daytrader is my understanding. To do that you will need at least $25k in your account. I'm not sure if you have to 'declare' to the broker that you are a daytrader. Of course, the quick and easy way around this is to trade futures. Funds are not held for T+3 and you can open accounts with very low minimums. Probably too low, but that's an entirely different discussion. Here's the index fut's area on TL: http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f3/ Other good sites for info: http://www.cbot.com/ http://www.cme.com/

Mark & Pivot - thank for you sharing, I appreciate it. In the spirit of keeping things simple (just how I am) there appears to be quite a bit of outside areas, WRBs, etc. that could take you out of a trade. The question I would then have is, how far back are you looking for previous WRB areas? I am just trading intra-day on a 5 minute chart, so especially in the AM there are not many WRBs to use, if any; unless using a previous day(s) WRBs. And then the question is which ones to use and why? My concern would be having too many lines or possible exit areas to choose from. Of course one of them will look great in hindsight, but why would you exit at one level vs. another level?

A human trader doesn't have to match the program's speed unless you trading vehicles that are so volatile that you can't blink w/o missing something. Quite a few of us here trade the e-mini futures and it's not exactly hard to get your trades executed... even in quick markets. I'm sure this really, really complex computer program is making money now, but over time, just like any other program out there, it will die. We have yet to achieve the point where a computer program that is made by humans can adapt to changing market conditions. So the question then becomes what happens when (not if) this 2 yr project stops working? Back to square one? No thanks... I'll just do the adjusting myself and stay in tune with the markets.

I concur.

I agree Walter. I am a 'daytrader' but not a scalper, that's for sure. All positions are exited by 4:15pm EST.

I don't know. And I don't care. As I said, I don't make my living by trying to make these types of predictions. It's not my business. If that doesn't make sense to you, in time it might.

Along the lines of a fixed daily goal and walking away... today I had a long setup on the ES at 10AM EST. I currently have 1/3 of my contracts still running out there. Entry was 1502.25. Current price is 1508. I have no idea if this will continue all day, like yesterday, but if I limited myself to making a certain amount of dollars and quitting, I would be out of this trade already. That would make 2 days in a row of nice running trades that would have been exited prematurely. So, setting a daily goal and then walking away may sound good in the textbooks, but I would be hard pressed to see the practical use of such a method.

notouch - I would be concerned with information overload with many different markets in front of you. It seems to me that James and a few others here jump from one ship to the next before conquering their first endeavor. And I understand why, I used to do that myself. I think trading multiple markets is a great idea if you can do it, but you first have to be able to trade ONE profitably. If you can't trade the YM, odds are you won't be able to trade the QM, EC, DAX, etc. etc. Yes, there are exceptions based on the market being traded, but I doubt too many of us here have finely tuned trading methodologies based on each individual market. Most probably have their way of trading and then apply it to that market. Assuming that is true, mastering one market before venturing into another is something to consider. I would also add that if you can master an index for example, you can easily just trade that with large size vs. trying to get trades on in 10 different markets each day. I've been content lately with just trading the ES and to be honest, it's much less stressful. I have no liquidity issues and have one chart open. That's kinda nice actually.

James - my only feedback on that trade was that your short entry was done on a hammer type line. To me, that's either a bullish entry or a reason to not go short. I personally don't care of the bonds as your 5 min chart showed very, very little movement in my opinion. I know the ticks are worth more, but I need volatility and the bonds simply do not have that many days. Perhaps a volume based chart would work better in bonds, just a suggestion. One suggestion James - instead of jumping from the indexes, to bonds, to grains, to metals to the next greatest futures contract, why not stick with one and become a specialist on that one market? Perhaps this is another discussion in and of itself, but one thing I see here is the jumping from one market to the next. Trust me when I say this - changing markets is not the problem and/or solution. I've been there and done that, so please let my mistakes and thousands of dollars save you some time. Become a specialist in one market and then exploit the hell out of that market. I liken it to becoming a highly paid brain surgeon or a general practitioner. You can be a jack of all trades and be ok at those, or be really, really good at one thing. That's how I operated my stockbroker business and it's how I operate my trading business. I learned years ago that you will never be really good at a whole bunch of things, so I suggest becoming an expert in one.

Welcome to the club Bf!! It's always good to review your mechanics and fine tune as needed, but as we all know, your mind can be your own worst enemy at times. It's good to be able to share on a forum like this to get some constructive feedback.

Good discussion here, even if it digressed a bit. Hopefully any new traders reading this are realizing a couple things... 1) You can't just take what you read in a book, message board, etc. and assume that way of trading will work for you. Here, in this thread, I've tried to explain that in order for me to execute my plan, I need to be in any and all trades that appear, regardless of time. Walter has shared that his way of trading best produces in the first hour of trading. No one is 'right' here as each of us operate differently and have different ideal conditions. 2) Once you prove to yourself that particular setup(s) at particular time(s) work, trade it like there's no tomorrow. Again, you MUST be confident in your setups due to your hours and hours of work that prove your analysis is solid. 3) In order to win the game, you must be a participant. You cannot win watching from the sidelines. And today was a great example... I had 3 setups today. The first two netted out a gain, but nothing to be exited about. Then the move of the day occurred and with a short around 11am, I literally rode 1/3 of my contracts till the close of the day. This is the kind of trade that I am talking about... First, you have to be in it to have a chance at catching this. Second, if you set a firm goal of $XXX/day, I would have exited this short LONG before it was even close to being done. That's some serious money left on the table.

Well Mal, we shall see. I am not in the business of calling tops/bottoms or continuations, I simply go with the flow of the day and extract as much money as possible. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you call a top or two in a couple previous posts? And now the call is a continuation move to the upside? I guess you'll be right - either this might go up or down. :p

Walter - sounds like you have proven to yourself that the first 1 hour of trading is best for the way you trade. And the fact is that most traders will never reach the point to be able to say with 100% confidence what you are saying here. Anyone can say don't trade during lunch, the AM session, the PM session, etc. but until you actually do it yourself for the way you trade, it doesn't mean much. I mean, you said the first hour is best. I've read over and over that staying out of the first half hour is the best way to get the 'unprofessional' money out of the way. Is either 'right'? Well, only the end user can decide that. Like you, I love the first hour usually. On a day like today however, the move I am looking to jump on did not show till about 11am EST. But in reference to my above mentioned ES down move from earlier, this thing is still cooking for me. Initial short was around 11am EST and 1/3 of my contracts are still out there short. I have no idea if this will continue down more or not, but the only way to win is to be in the game.

If your analysis has shown that your trading is best suited for the first hour and the first hour only, then I would just trade the first hour as well. I have no idea how a seasoned scalper operates as I am not trading for ticks myself. For example - the ES got a really nice drop today around 11am EST. If you just trade the first hour and the first hour only, you just missed out on a ton of available cash... For me, that's not worth missing by limiting myself to either a $ gain and/or a time limit. In the end, we have NO IDEA when the best movements will show up. No idea. I've heard the first hour and done, no lunch, only morning and/or afternoon, etc. etc. And if your trading does not survive during these times b/c you have proven to yourself this is the case, great. If you are just saying only trade the 1st hour b/c some website or book said to, I would suggest that until you perform your own analysis, that suggestion means nothing.

I get what you are saying but in context of daily goals, to say 'I quit when I feel like it' is completely arbitrary and open to much debate on the merits of this. Back to the topic on hand of setting daily goals however, we both in some way, shape or form agree that simply setting a goal of say $500 and stopping is NOT a good idea as you become a seasoned trader. On that point, I think we can agree. :p

Coot - I think your view of a daily goal is very different than what is taught by corporations, trading psychology books, etc. To say you have a daily goal means you have a HARD goal that once reached, your day is over. That is how daily goals are structured and taught. Your version is a 'would like to make at least' type goal. I'm not disagreeing with the idea of continuing to trade, since that was my point all along, but you were debating me quite hard on the merits of trading all your setups vs. stopping after you reach your goal. In reality, you are doing EXACTLY what I do - you trade when your setups are there, which can lead to rather large profits in a day. In the end, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have large profit days if you implement a daily goal system (unless your goal is large to begin with). If you set your goal to $500/day, you will NEVER reach $1000 or $10,000 in a day until that goal is altered. You may catch some days slightly over $500 due to a trade continuing, but to truly catch those big winners, a daily goal system will in fact restrict that from occurring. Somehow, we were disagreeing on this topic, yet we are doing the same thing. :rolleyes:

Hey Coot, just making sure you saw my reply here, I am curious to understand how this daily goal thing works where you can possibly earn $10k in a day or $250 all the while maintaining a daily goal!

Pivot - my idea here is not clear apparently. The analogy of playing the blackjack hand the same time, every time was to simply say - be consistent in your trading. The actual breakdown of this being a blackjack analogy is irrelevant in what I was attempting to convey. You can substitute blackjack for rummy, dice, dominos, horseshoes, corn hole, lawn darts, etc. The point that I tried to convey and fell short was to simply say - you need to 'play' your hands consistently, whether in trading or at the card table. You cannot one hand hit on a 12 and the next hand not hit that same 12 and expect to come out ahead. Odds are, you will lose twice. I understand there's always exceptions to the rule, esp for the pro's, but until you reach that level, consistency is key. And I proved it to myself - I took the high score rather easily by simply applying very, very simple rules. As you know, I am a big fan of keeping things simple. I think there's a lot of unnecessary over-analyzing that goes on when people trade or play cards. It's almost as if we want things to be much harder than they might be...

OK, so let me ask this - if you are saying that a daily goal is what you recommend, is your daily goal $250 - $10,000? Because you cannot say your goal is $500 and achieve a $1000 or $10,000 day. It's not possible if you set your daily goal to $500; which has been my point all along. If you can achieve $1000, $5000, $10,000+ in a day and you set your goal to $500, you will never achieve those results until your goal is changed. To say that $250 is mediocre and $10,000 is exceptional, how is it possible to obtain either of those with a fixed daily goal? When I think of daily goals for traders, I am thinking of hard numbers, not a range of $9750. If that's the case, then we are all setting 'daily goals'.

Coot - maybe you missed my question here or simply ignored it, but if you are going to push the daily goal idea, please share where/how you cap your losses in comparison to your gains. In other words, where do you stop trading if you make money and where do you stop if you lose money? Perhaps I will better understand your argument once you lay it out in actual numbers.

dalby 'gets it'. There is no point of limiting your upside once you are at the point of becoming a successful trader.