Robert Joyce

Mr Black that is a thing of beauty! I love the small 2 pt. profit target. I am assuming you use a 2 pt limit for profit with a 3 pt stop. Outstanding... I would like to know what you use for your entry signals.

Ok, no real trades today again, I don't like starting real trading week on a Friday so I just sim trade today. 8 trades on the ES, all 2 contracts : 5 winners, 1 loser, 2 stopped out at even. A good day so I look forward to Monday. That was quite the end of the day rally to close at 8500. I guess that is bullish for next week. Can't wait to find out..... lol Have a good weekend.

Brownsfan, that was quite a trade on the ES today. I am very curious my brother and I have heated discussions about what we call 'double down' when a trade goes against you and yet you still believe in it. He uses this as a way to average down his break even point and usually just bails when it get there. I am real curious of what was happening there in your mind, what was your stop, what kept you in the trade for almost 3 pts. how did you exit this trade. Nice trade though.

lol lol Sorry I forgot one arrow..... and the price to buy would be 898.

Here is my view of the same action today on the ES. I was trading the YM and took this signal for a nice little trade as both my limits were hit. I offer it here because it is often a strong signal and can have nice moves usually 3 to 5 but this one went for 8.

Ok, so no real trades again today. I had some more business to take care of right in the middle of the trading day for 2 hrs. So I traded on my sim again.... 11 trades, all 2-YM contracts, 1 stopped out for full 21pts, 2 that stopped out at even after hitting my first target and moving my initial stop to 10 under my entry. 2 more were just taking too long so I bailed out at or very close to even and 6 very nice, textbook trades that took both my limit exits. When they work well it is just a beautiful thing to watch. So I ended up $465. pretend dollars.............. eeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........... The day is coming..... Oh yeah there was the execution error.... how many of you have been concentrating so hard, decide to sell out of a position that you hit a 'sell' market order when you are already short.... yikes.... Lucky for me it kept going south so I was able to get out with a profit but maybe not so lucky next time... But that is the only execution error I have made in awhile... I used to make all kinds of them, like not clearing all pending orders after exiting a trade and getting a surprise entry..... yikes.... lol lol Anyways, tomorrow is another trading day and I'm looking forward to it.

Ok, no real trades today again. I was just too busy with some business and other distractions. But I did make some sim trades with 2 YM contracts and I just got smashed.... I did not see some of those slams coming at all. So consequently I got stopped out for my daily limit of $500. Thank God it was only a sim account. I just wasn't focused, kept getting distracted, so I just threw on a couple of sim trades and didn't pay attention. God I hope I never do that with real money.... yikes. Anyways, good news is it's only Wednesday and that leaves 2 trading days yet this week. Woohoo...

Ok, sorry no real trades today, too much business going on had to leave early and stuff but I did trade my sim today for about 2 hrs, 8 trades, all 2- YM contracts 6 winners and 2 stopped out for full 21 pts each time. But the six winners made that back plus profit of $615. for the day. I have all kinds of excuses for not trading for real. I wonder how many are truly legitimate or am I just a big chicken..... hmmmmmmmmmmmm Time will tell. Sorry I have not had a chance to respond to some of the comments here. I will more fully later, but just a short note to Thalestrader, that was a great post, but of course the same 'divergence' signal will be evident in many different indicators at the same time, and yes it will also be represented in 'price action'. But neither the price action nor the indicator by themselves is really sufficient, there should and will be confirmation from a number of sources. It all tells the same story if you know how to read.... There is a certain clarity to the way you describe these things which I really appreciate, thanks again.

Ok so no real trades today. I did put on some sims with 2 YM contracts, a 21 pt stop and 8 and 15 pt limits. Two losers to start then 5 winners in a row each one taking out both limits, it was beautiful to watch, ended up $235. but only 21 true points. Still I am very happy with my week. It has really helped me immensely to have these dialogues with yous guys and I hope to have more in the future. Thanks for listening.

opps there is one more thing you can know about a single tick and that is whether it was bought on the bid or the ask. So says my brother.... lol

Bathrobe... lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol....... I'm still laughing..... you funny guy....lol lol. No but seriously, I think your right about them but wrong about the indicator(s). lol lol I'm still laughing... No seriously, the methods and understandings I have learnt (I know that is not a word ... but it should be...) in 3 years of daily watching the indexes and the movement of lots of different indicators and oscillators, mostly sim trading but 4 bouts of real trading, many of the things I watch are used in the construction of their stuff. There are really only 3 things you can know about a single tick; 1- the price 2- the time 3- the volume The only other thing you can know is the relationship between those 3 over time... which are MA's. As far as I can tell, and I'm admittedly extremely ignorant and lazy, all indicators and oscillators seek to construct MA's of some sort and compare them as to convergence or divergence. So much like Carter and Senters as I understand it their 'Squeeze' indicator is made up of the convergence/divergence of a Williams R something or other and a Mcllelan something or other, which are two oscillators which again are constructed with MA's. Their TTM is based simply on MA's too I think. They have now added something to help distinguish healthy signals from bad ones, probably an oscillator. I run both of these.... my buddy brought them to the table, I don't trade them but I do watch them and low and behold when I get a good crossover signal on my sets of EMA's one or more of those squeeze indicators go off. Hmmmmmmm So to sum it up I think you just need a good indicator for trend, a good oscillator for strength or energy, and most important good money management, and needless to say good execution. And I don't think it really matters which ones you use as long as you know how to read them.... and that simply takes 'screen time'. Oh and Brownsfan... I have not forgotten about getting some charts up that demonstrate the relationship between the same oscillator, Slow Stochastic, run on a 1 min and 5 min chart. To me the oscillation patterns between the two are a good measure of intraday energy or momentum surges and moves. Anyways sorry to be so verbose.... lol

lol lol Brownsfan... You bring up a good point about Carter though, I did not really take notice of the his stops. After I thought to ask him if they really just go for such a small win, but one of my buddies follows him quite closely and says that is his plan, as he said those first two limits are 'fixed', so I assume that is his ultimate target, any runners are just gravy. Herb Senters traded the YM for 4 contracts with a 20 pt stop and a 20 point limit, he got stopped out for $400. loss.(yikes lol) My broker said the same as you, I was trading like that last summer because it seemed to me that the average 'move' on the ES was only 2 to 3 points before it retraced and I usually only made the 1 pt at the end of waiting. So I thought when it gets to 1 pt(ES) or 10(YM) just sell it and look for another trade and it works pretty well. The problem was trying to get to 50pts(1 contract) daily required 5 or 6 trades and by then my averages caught up to me and I would get stopped out.(Can't be right 100% of the time) So my p/l was left to the last few trades of the day, which is very frustrating. So if I get a good signal at an extreme(like the 50pter today) I will hold them longer. But really I think the average of 1 ptES or 10ptYM is pretty consistent. So on the YM I run a 21pt stop and a 10 or 15 pt limit, and like you my broker thinks if you are going to risk losing 20 pts you should at least want to make 30 or more. But the way I looked at it is if you really look at 5 min bars almost all of them retrace 50% or more on an average true range of 10 to 15 pts. So it is actually easier to hit a 10pt limit than it is a 21pt stop every 5 min no matter where you buy it and assuming you have some idea of how to gage trend then it should and does work very well. So this is another way to look at risk and maybe this is Carters rationale for a 4 pt stop. He really does expect his limit will be hit before long before his stop. Of course he is going to get hit sometime, but if that trade had gone against him I'll bet he would have sold it long before it hit that 4pt stop. That stop is really there just to guard against 'catastrophic' loss. But then again maybe I'm just full of _____.

Actually I do have a muse for today.... 'lost opportunity'. I feel that with the indexes there is no lost opportunity, it will be there again tomorrow just like today, with just as many opportunities as today. Unlike stocks where you might watch a stock for days waiting for your 'opportunity' and if you miss it you have to go and look for another. Unless of course you are as good as Thalestrader. lol

Ok, so no trades today. I took in a live trading webinar by John Carter and Herb Senters from Trade the Markets. It was worth the time spent to watch John trade a 24 lot on the ES. Two trades both hit the first 2 limits and he eventually sold the remainder with a market order when the move petered out. I like the way they trade for just small points, he took off 12 at 1/2 pt, 6 more at 1 point and then just waited for the last 6 to see if they would run. 2 trades he got $1200. So I'm on the right track learning to make consistent small point wins and then up the number of contracts. I did through on a sim trade when I had to go out, 2 contracts on the YM @ 8224 and it hit my 50 pt limit while I was out. The question is would I have put on that trade for real and hung in there until my limit was hit...... lol lol not likely... lol lol. Anyways I know what I need to do, I know how to do it, now all I need to do now is 'just do it'.

Ok, 6 real trades today on the ym; 2 losers, 1 even and 3 winners for a 7pt profit. First 2 were losers which put me in a 30 pt hole. The last three were beauties 10pts, 18pts and 9pts. I am glad I was watching during that late day sell off.... ouch. But I feel good, the anxiety I feel when trading is starting to diminish. All in all a good day.

Dakine, outstanding but I don't get your shorthand: VWAP- DVAH- HOD- LOD- MPers- I trade the mini's and I would like to know what those are? And when you say a 4 pt trade is that with just one contract or more? thanks

Ok, sorry no trades yesterday. I had business and other distractions and missed some decent entries. The rest of the day I just watched.

Ok, just 2 trades of 1 YM contract both shorts, for a total of 11pts or $55.00 The first one just ran out of time and the 2nd I admit I got nervous and jumped out, it went on for a 20 pt move. There were 2 other good signals that I missed. Then I waited around for a good short I thought was developing late in the day, but I just couldn't get enough confirmation so I waited and watched and sure enough it just went higher. Hate it when that happens. Anyways another small but winning day.

great answer, I left another post to explain how I do use as you say, oscillators and trend indicators. thanks again for the clarity.

This is a great discussion on EMA's and they are my favorite. I run 2 sets of ema's on 1 and 5 min charts of the Dow and S&P. They are 8,21,34 and a 15,50,89. The oscillation between these ema's on the 1 and 5 min charts provides for numerous entries and exits and continuation patterns. I liked how one of you refered to a 'repetoire' of trades, I watch a broad range of data from tick and trin to stochastics and the ema's. Often more for confirmation of entry direction and continuation and to set my limits and stops. Actually I find the slow stochastic running on the bottom of my 1 and 5 min charts can give you a real good idea of the strength and duration of a move. For example as the 5 min moves from overbought to oversold the 1 min will complete 2 or even 3 moves from overbought to oversold. To me it kind of represents the 'energy' left in a move or on a longer term basis the energy flow during the day. The reason why I use such short time frames is that during the day these two time frames, 1 and 5 min slow stochastics for the most part oscillate from overbought to oversold completely all day long. The 10 min for example often stops and retraces without completing the journey. But again the 1 and 5 min oscillate pretty much all day long. Here is an example of one of my trades. it starts with a strong crossover signal on my ema's say it's long, then the stochastics, if the 5min is currently in oversold rng and the 1min is still in overbought, I will wait for the 1 min to return to oversold before I enter the trade. Then I know that there is quite a bit of travel left in the next stochastic travel back to overbought. Now once in a trade I will watch the 5 min stochastic to spend all of it's energy up to oversold before the move is over. Well of course I am also looking at pivots and round numbers and trin and, and, and... but that is how I gage my ema's signals..... with stochastics... and volume did I mention volume.... lol lol lol But in the end I guess it all depends on what kind of trade you want to take, how much you need to make on each trade, how much you expect to make in a day.... and so on. I'm only looking to make YM 50 pts in 3 to 5 trades per day.... consistently and that's only 10 to 15 pts per trade with 1 contract... So you can see I only need relatively small moves to reach my goals and that is why I use such short time frames. on my sim everyday no problem... with real money.... big problem.... lol lol lol. So I guess that means it's not my method... it's my madness... lol lol

Tams, how do you differentiate between indicators and oscillators, and could you give me a few examples.

Ok, nothing to report, I did not take any trades on Friday, options expiration can make for some strange moves on the indexes, and if you are not up by Friday the temptation is just too great to try and get even and if your wrong you have to live with it all weekend, and I just hate that. Better to start fresh on Monday then I have the whole week. Getting back to the question of trading alone or with a trading partner. I talked with a broker and a compliance officer and they brought to my attention that every trade in a brokerage and even down on the floor of the exchanges generally requires 3 people; the trigger-down on the floor of the exchange; the spotter who is actually deciding on which trade to enter; and the reviewer to make sure the trades are technically correct and meet guidelines. Even in brokerages many traders sit in a 'pit' or room and there is alot of synergy between traders, and some who do prefer to trade alone. so I would have to say that in terms of the total trades done on say the ES or YM the bulk are done by traders who are in constant banter with another trader and those trading alone would be in the minority. Now because of the computer and the situation of most 'day traders' probably most of them are trading alone. Personally I like to trade with my one of my 2 trading buddies on my speaker phone. Because my long distance is cheap-cheap I keep the line open and it is like we are sitting right beside each other.... both looking at the same index charts, the same data feeds, etc. trading the same emini and still virtually all of our trades are different. Depending on what indicator and how you trade there are probably 100's of trades everyday that could be taken. Anyways I enjoy having a buddy to trade with, I've tried it alone and sometimes you have to because no one else is available but I certainly prefer a buddy. I find the constant banter helps to keep me focused and on the right side of the trends. All in all not a bad week just not great, and Monday is the start of a brand new week and I'm really looking forward to it. Good luck to all of you.

Ok, 3 YM trades, 1 contract; 1st trade long stopped out for 15pts, I have now moved my entry stop back up to 21 where it is set on my sim. Had it been there I wouldn't have been stopped out and the trade would have gone on to hit my normal limit at 30 pts. 2nd a pivot trade long again got stopped out for a 1pt profit.... namely because I moved my stop to even way too early. Third was a the same pivot trade long, I had moved my stop down to twenty, it moved against me and came within 1 pt of stopping me out. I decided the pivot trade may just break down so I got out near even with a 2 pt loss. This time the index continued on up and would also have hit a 30pt limit with room to spare. So I stopped trading there and ended the day down 16 pts. As you can see I'm picking good trades but no real confidence just yet. couple of noob mistakes like moving my stop to even too early, and not having adjusted my stop when I decided to hold my trades longer. But I believe it is coming, day by day.... lol. All in all not a bad day just not great. I will post my trades later today.

MCM, I appreciate you comments and I understand all that. I am a day trader and I look to place 3 to 5 trades a day, I do use signals to enter, I do predetermine exit points. I have been trading for 3yrs now, both real and sim mostly and watch the indexes virtually everyday. My recent trading reports are based on real trades and I am simply trying to be honest about what is happening to me as I work through this extreme anxiety I feel when in a trade. But it's not the anxiety so much as the fact I seem to forget everything I know, but not really. It's a 'strange brew' if you ask me and just something I have to work thru. But for example I noticed on Brownsfan's report today on his 6E trades the last two were sure not exited at any predetermined profit. One was long one was short at virtually the same price both were exited very close to even... something was going on there and I don't think it was mechanical execution. I also talked to a broker today who admitted that the 'emotional' element is and has to be an integral part of all trades, the mastery comes in how you deal with it. Kind of like you have to trade through it. Anyways as I said I am really trying to be honest more for myself than for the report. But thanks again for your comments.

Ok, so traded for real again today, but not until late in the day. I usually am up and watching the open, watch the first hour to see how that shapes up, then had some business I had to take care of. So it seems I usually don't feel confident enough until the afternoon. Today i put on 2 trades on the YM both for 1 contract. First one stopped out for 16 pt loss with a 15pt stop, so a little slippage there and the second one I took back 14 pts so gross profit for the day was -$5.00. I was going to hold onto the second one to see if we would get a late day bounce like yesterday but we were down at the S-2 and getting out at even seemed the wiser move. Then I just stayed out and watched all that whipsaw BS at the end of the day. Which brings me to my muse for the day, what is a 'trade'. At it's most basic form it is taking a position in a security that has the potential for gain or loss, period. However it also has to include some decision process as to whether or not to enter which must be based on a system or signal or even gut feeling, even if it is just flipping a coin. Now I know this is starting to sound pretty pedantic or over simplified but wait here is my point. If I am brutally honest, when I ask myself what was the last thought before I pushed the button, even after a long systematic consideration of a signal and other confirming data with a predetermined exit strategy, the last thought before I push the button is always more like an emotional one, or a gut feeling than the mechanical execution the system. So I ask the question 'what is a trade?' It seems to me that the last thought you had is the one that really determined whether or not you entered the trade even though it came at the end of a long considered process. Here is a snap of my trades yesterday, I don't get a statement until the next morning so even though I report my daily trades the snap will be of yesterdays until I get this sorted out. Anyways all in all not a bad day, just not great. One more question how many of you trade with a partner or buddy and how many trade alone. I trade with a buddy on speaker most of the time and often we can get involved in discussions that cause me to lose my concentration but it also provides a good sounding board and moral support(lol lol).... but it's true. So which is better with a partner or alone?