Roger Felton

Trading is, for most, all about making money from a learned skill. College is about making money with a learned skill (and degree). I have a masters degree in electrical engineering. So what? Some of my college professors had PhD's. Big deal. I never met many that could actually teach. And none ever showed me their tax returns to prove that they ever made a dime in EE. I didn't care. Just give me the knowledge and I can do the rest. The people I learned the most from in life didn't have a degree...or much money. If the secret to vast riches is finding a "guru" with notarized statements, then why are those courses and systems that offer that not on the front page of every newspaper in the civilized world? Because they're usually a scam! Waving big fat checks and 6 figure trading statements in peoples faces is the oldest trick in the book. Even if you're totally honest, doing that makes one look like a con artist. It's like you're promising them they will do as well by setting the expectation...and that is wrong! But, it that's what you want, go for it.

Hope this thread doesn't go on and on because it is definitely starting to look like I'm trying to sell something here. I'm not...in fact, I can't to TL members so this is just FYI stuff.... Trades are executed in real time for 3 hours per day. I moderate for 1.5 and a student moderates for 1.5 hours. We don't say what we did...we SHOW what we're doing. Trades usually come with plenty of warning, too. They are viewed on our trading platform so observers and students can see the entry, the management and the exit while we explain what we liked about the trade and what it's likely to do. For a long list of very good reasons, the trades are done in simulation mode but everything else is live. Some traders believe, however, that no sim trade could possibly win if traded in a live account so the trading room is not for everyone.

We'll just have to disagree. If I were managing a fund, then traders would have every right to full disclosure of that fund and how I was running it. But, if someone is teaching a Welding Class, for instance, and says he keeps in practice by doing weekend welding jobs, would I have any right to demand that he provide me with copies of his paychecks? Is he obligated in any way to disclose to his prospective students the income he derives from outside welding jobs that he does? Hell no and it's absurd to think otherwise. Additionally, the problem with statements is that they don't't accomplish anything useful beyond maybe satisfying someone's nosy curiosity. Trading statements do not insure or, in any way, make anyone a better trader or speed up the learning curve. They can, however, easily create a false expectation that can be very damaging. Trading statement requests are a red flag to me of a "holy grail" seeker. At the very least, someone who doesn't know how to properly evaluate a trading system or the ability of an instructor to teach it. These type of traders are usually unteachable. And, yes, statements can be faked and often are. To be meaningful, you would need continuous audited statements going back many years. You would then need to find a way to determine if the statements actually represented the results of trading the system that was being taught. That's very difficult to do and accomplish nothing as far as your success is concerned. Personally, I'd rather watch someone trade...with no time limit on how long I could observe and ask lots of questions to determine. You can't fake that. So, let's just disagree. Perhaps, over time, after you've poured over enough statements and watched tons of live trades taken but still get no personal trading improvement, maybe you can begin to consider there just might be a better way.

As a general rule, I recommend traders take at least 30% off of their sim results for a realistic idea of how live trading should go. From a purely mechanical standpoint, I see virtually no difference in my sim trading from live in NinjaTrader. It is an exceptional platform. The added difficulty in live account trading comes from the stress of human emotions, mostly. While, for most traders, there is little stress involved in sim trading, my situation is quite different. As a moderator with many student-traders following my sim trades in their live account executions, emotionally I find that to be much more difficult than simply trading my live account. Most traders have only a one-sided view of sim trading and have never had to perform well on a daily basis with a large group of traders observing their every move...and were dependent on their trainer to make the right decisions. Whenever non-student traders whine about the fact that I trade sim when training in the room, it is due to ignorance of how difficult that actually is. Finding, executing, managing and exiting good profitable trades while moderating, teaching, drawing and answering questions in a trading room is an exceptionally difficult task....sim or otherwise. So, for me, yeah...sim trading is harder than trading my live account. Absolutely.

I think you may have missed the point. Among prospective students, there are two schools of thought. The majority understand that, if they get the knowledge they need and the training they need plus the mentorship they need on a daily basis, then there should be nothing stopping them from achieving any success level they wish. Discovering whether a trader/teacher has the skill set to deliver that is what due diligence is all about. I know that a lot of traders believe that due diligence gives them the right to delve into my personal finances as if they were an IRS agent, but it doesn't. If anyone wants to know if I can trade, they can watch me for 3 hours a day every day for a year if they wish. Anyone of modest intelligence should be able to establish that fact in much less time than that. I can spot a phony trading wannabe just by watching them for a couple of hours...anyone can. My point here is that providing trading statements (which I used to do so I know what I'm talking about) is not only a personal invasion of privacy, but it accomplishes nothing. Think about it. Assuming you went to college, how many of your professors did you demand to see their tax returns to see how much money they made as an engineer, or attorney, marine biologist, etc. None, right? You were there for knowledge and a degree. They provide that and you took it from there. But, in some people's minds, trading is different. Really? Having to provide my personal financial information on demand to anyone who wants it is not only absurd, it would be an exercise in ignorance. Who really believes that, just because I make a good living trading, that then must be some sort of guarantee of success? If I wasn't already a darn good trader, I could not have stayed in business for 15 years. The issue is, can I teach that skill to others? I do it every day. Providing a financial statement would prove two things. It would prove that I can trade. But I already prove that every day to anyone who cares to watch and ask questions. Secondly, it would prove that I had the emotional control and confidence to make a good consistent living as a professional trader. Sorry to say it guys but Focus, Patience, Discipline, and Confidence aren't sell-able commodities. They come from hard work, practice and experience...not from my financial statements. There is no correlation. The psychological requirements of trading don't "rub off" and it do not come in a bottle. If I had to go through that just to be able to help someone, no thanks. I'd rather just trade.

(1) The Ninja sim trading that I do each day is set to a very conservative level. Often, a limit order is touched several times and never filled. As for commissions, I've had individuals paying anywhere from $2 to 20 round turn. There is no standard so trying to make one up to please everyone would serve no useful purpose. Just take the number of trades times the two contracts I trade times the commission you pay and you'll get an accurate figure for your situation. (2) Any trader who believes that someone's actual brokerage statements had any bearing on their personal success is in for a huge disappointment. I use to post my notarized brokerage statements for everyone to see. It had zero effect on anyone' else's results whatsoever. However, it did cause many traders to expect to achieve the same results as mine immediately. Even though I promised them they could not match my results without much practice, they felt misled when they came up short. Most traders want instant riches with little or no effort. It was a mistake and I will never do it again. They always conveniently forgot I've been trading this method for 15 years and they wanted the same results in 15 days. I trade my live account every day unless the markets are particularly bad. Anyone who thinks that they're going to do exceptionally well just because I do without a hell of a lot of work is not the type of trader I care to try to teach. (3) The indicators I use are the ones I've been using for years. The parameters have not changed. We do use a variety of chart types such as Line Break and Renko plus Range and Tick. Traders are left to their own discretion as to what chart type they like. The system works regardless. All the software does is take over the vast amount of mundane measuring, figuring, data crunching and anticipating dog work that formerly the trader had to do. This frees them up tremendously to focus on their training in signal selection and trade management decisions. The system itself is dynamic. It is adaptive to what's going on in the market at that particular time. Anytime I develop a better, easier, clearer, more effective trading tool, I will add it to our arsenal. This does not mean that all traders MUST use it. The more powerful tools that traders have to choose from, the better chance they have, with expert guidance, to find a solid fit to their personal style and trading personality.

By "cutting slack" I simply meant being fair and honest. You and I may differ on some things, but you aren't calling me a "shark", "con artist" or "charlatan" without any supporting evidence. I appreciate that...it means we can communicate and possibly learn from each other.

Yes, I did see that...and I responded to that. Hope you saw it. Thanks!

Our thanks, SIUYA, for taking the time to come visit and prepare this review for the TL group. It appears that you made an honest effort to put aside personal biases and preconceived opinions. You are completely correct in that anyone can take the time to create their own trading method and save themselves some monetary expense...assuming their time is worth very little. Most traders will spend several years gaining the necessary knowledge and mastery of market behavior, price action, technical analysis and psychological mastery necessary to succeed. 90% or more never make it. Any trader capable of mentally keeping track of over 500 things simultaneously in a single market would certainly not have any problem mastering what we do...or, make that, what our software does. Given 2 to 3 years to code and 10 to 15 years of method development, anyone should be able to duplicate what we've accomplished easily. Most of that time, by the way, was spent learning what doesn't work! One thing I have learned over the years is that nobody, regardless of knowledge and talent, can make a trader successful who is not serious. In my opinion, traders who expect me to give up my evenings, weekends and holidays for $1.98 are not serious traders and I won't waste my time or theirs. We're a business just like any college, university or trade school and what we charge for lifetime mentorship and training (which they don't offer) is a relative pittance even if I gave the trading room away for free. So, you and I will probably have to disagree on what that's worth. I think it just comes down to the value of success and reaching goals that have, for whatever reason, been evasive. What's that worth? A lot to some and not much to others, I suppose. As a point of clarification, we don't "sell" nor do we "upsell" and you did not experience anyone asking you for any money at any time during your time with us, did you? You implied that someone did and, if so, I want to know about it because that is strictly against our policy. I abhor upselling. Anyone preferring to be nickel and dimed to death would not find joy with FT. We're not the ones to come to for a free ride. And we're certainly not the guys you want if you expect an easy ride...it is not! It's a long hard rocky road filled with potholes and pitfalls. If you're surprised at the small number of traders who actually make a living trading, you'd be shocked to see the minute percentage who make it completely on their own. Trading is one of the most difficult career choices anyone can possibly make. You can be in the bottom 10% in practically any other field and still make a living. If you're not the best of the best as a trader, then you're just donating. It takes full committment, hard work, lots of practice, intensive daily training and constant mentorship for at least a year or more if you're a novice. Thanks once again, SIUYA, for the time you spent with us and for posting your review. I truly believe it represents your honest opinion of Felton Trading as you understand it and that's exactly what I had hoped for. You are welcome back to our room anytime and welcome to stay for as long as you wish. Let's you and I get on Skype and chat trading sometime. I'd like that a lot. Roger

My first 10 years of trading were in penny stocks. Did pretty well, actually, but hated the research. It was all fundamentals and intuition so nothing like I trade today. Didn't start with TA until about 25 years ago and that's when my real experience began. When I first started speaking at the major tradeshows in late '98, I would be addressing anywhere from 500 to 1500 traders from all over the world. One of the first things I'd ask during my presentation on "The Future of Futures" was, "How many of you have heard of the S&P 500 E-minis?" Maybe 5 hands would go up on a good day. If you check the volume growth of the S&P E-mini, it stayed pretty flat for the first 2 years (it launched by the CME in Sept. '97). Then, when the tech bubble burst in Apr. 2000, traders were more than ready to move to something besides equities. Getting totally destroyed will cause you to look around a bit, you know. It was then that the E-minis really took off and the growth went ballistic. But then, I told 'em it would back when they were too busy in the bubble to listen. 15 years from their launch, most traders are at least aware of the E-minis. So a relative newcomer like yourself, mits, can't imagine a time when most traders would offer a blank stare when asked about them...but that time really did exist once.

It's impossible to have a meaningful discussion if we make up our own definitions. So now we have TA, FA and Dark Matter?

Dude, first you said that no professional trader uses TA, period. Then you amended it to say "cornerstone" of their trading. Here are the direct quotes: "all ive said is pro's dont use ta." "...professional traders have also found ta just dont work." "all im saying here is that out of ALL professional traders ive PERSONALLY MET ... NONE of them trade using TA as the cornerstone of their strategy." Everytime I quote you, and address your statements, you flip flop. What statement is wrong now?

Trading is a lot like trying to predict the weather. The farther out you try to go, the more exposure you have to the random variables of nature that increase the odds of error. Predicting the weather for the next 5 minutes or so requires much less training and tools. But you at least need a wind gauge and a thermometer to eliminate guessing. Weather prediction is nothing more than gathering data, crunching that data and applying it to historical data in order to predict a future result. You have to use the right tool in the right way to get the right answer. How is that different from trading? In our weather prediction analogy, someone could come up with an indicator that tracked various cloud formations...bears, horses, boots, etc. and then spit out a forecast that was usually wrong. If this is the only indicator a meteorologist ever sees, they might conclude that all "tech analysis" is bunk. If my experience and knowledge in TA was limited to H&S formations, crossover MA's, Fib retracement and Market Profile, I would probably consider TA to be a crock of hooey, too. I think that's probably where you're at. Probably not your fault either, since 90% of the common off-the-shelf TA indicators are flat useless. To get the results I wanted, I had to create new means for gathering and crunching data. In order to be an expert in TA, you have to study it in great depth for many years. You also need to approach it with an open mind. I studied MP for over 2 years and tried very hard to find some level of usefulness. I found it to be the biggest waste of time and effort I had ever spent in my 35 years of trading. But I still have an open mind that somehow it might be useful to someone else. If someone is getting all the success in trading that they ever dreamed of, who am I to say that person is doing it wrong?...and who are you?

No confusion. You specifically named CTA's as the "pros" who never used TA. In trading circles, a CTA is a Commodity Trading Advisor. They are a CTA only because they studied and took a test...not because they are a professional trader. They're like Financial Planners. Many can't even manage their own finances much less anyone else's....but they managed to pass a test.

The amazing point of TD's post is that NO professional trader uses Technical Analysis...period. Nada, zippo, zilch. Not even a little. That's a very incorrect and narrow-minded assumption. I personally know hundreds of professional traders...several manage very large funds. Every single one of them use TA to some degree. It is totally erroneous to blindly state the contrary without facts. And, sorry TD, but MP is another form of Technical Analysis. But it is a good example of complicated, difficult, and subjective use of TA.

TheDude, you're either a Fundamental trader, a TA trader, or a combination of both. MP is NOT Fundamental trading. It's simply another form of using technical data analysis (TA) to make trading decisions. So you're not a big fan of H&S...welcome to the club. It is subjective. One traders H&S pattern is another's Triple Top. Your ignorance of highly advanced technical analysis is extremely obvious. Why is it that, when something doesn't work for someone, they feel they have to ridicule it and assume it is impossible to work for anyone else? TD, if you are making gobs of money trading by the phases of the moon, then what right do I have to say your system is BS? Whenever I meet a trader who is enjoying consistent success with some technique, I always try to learn more about it...not waste my time (and others) trying to ridicule it in forums. But that's just a fundamental difference between us, I guess. One thing I noticed is that you use very weak examples to support your case...and your data is pulled out of thin air. All CTA's are professionals? CTA's never use TA? What do CTA's have to do with anything? Anyone can study and become a CTA and never have evere taken a trade...even in sim. I know several of them and they only became CTA's to help them sell more books or trading courses. If you are holding up CTA's as examples of "Trading Professionals", then it only serves to point out bias, ignorance, or both. Anyone who knows anything about floor traders knows that you cannot compare them to electronic traders. They come from two entirely different planets. Most floor traders I know are ex-floor traders. They are becomming extinct because their market knowledge and skills can't compete with computerized electronic trading. Many of them are actually computer illiterate. In my years of experience, floor traders are the most difficult to convert to electronic trading. They may be professionals in their world but they sure aren't in ours. The fact that a group of traders who barely know how to turn a computer on don't use Technical Analysis should be no surprise. To say that ALL professional traders DO NOT use TA is absurd...but that's probably because your idea of a trading pro is a guy jumping up and down in a pit while wildly waving his arms. Of course, all that guy has to do is go take a test and become a CTA and then his only problem is where to put all that money he's suddenly making in electronic trading.

OMG! I feel so embarrassed...I thought I was supposed to buy Enrons and Worldcomms at high prices. Question: How do you determine it's a good company and a good price when you have no way of knowing when they're cooking the books and when they aren't?

Now that supports my theory that, in trading, I have been right all along and that it's astounding how many times during the day the markets were wrong!....LOL

That's ridiculous! Flaps don't belong in the tail section. I hope you remembered to put on a rudder....

Yeah, explained quite well. I kinda had to chuckle as it reminded me of the hell I went thru years ago trying to analyze all that crap. If you bought the lowest price of the ES on a 5-minute bar and sold at the highest price of that bar on every bar, commissions would be a non-issue since you would be making profit from the very first tick...unless you were paying one heck of a commission, of course. Commissions would not be the problem...that you'd rarely get filled would be the problem. That plus the fact that, unless you were psychic, picking the bar hi and bar low would be impossible to do on any consistent basis. It's a mental exercise in futility. Buyers & sellers, market true value, is the market "wrong" or is it "right"? If the market goes up steadily for 3 days and you were long, you made out like a bandit but you were "wrong" because the market was wrong and didn't continue up for the next 3 years....boggles the mind. I think sometimes traders get too wrapped up in useless mush. We live in a totally insane world. Millions of people are trying to wipe millions of other people off the earth, governments (especially the US) that couldn't tell the truth or do the right thing if their lives depended on it...because it does and they don't. Trying to predict where a market might be beyond the end of the day is like playing Russian Roulette with 6 bullets in the gun. It's just a matter of time, IMHO. So I trade intraday...always flat before the sun goes down. Market exposure is kept to a minimum. I find scalping to be more rewarding than anything I've ever done in trading. No research, no concern about where the market is going or why, and whether the market is right or wrong makes for a good chuckle. Complex fundamentals are pointless and I get to sleep at night. Simplicity feels terrific!

Is that him? What a great pic. A pilot let me raise the landing gear once. Then I learned I was supposed to wait for the plane to take off.

Just the ones on the co-pilots knees. Of course, traders can get knobby knees, too, from praying too much.

I get it...just slow. I've had several pilots agree that there is a similarity between insturments and indicators. One you trust your money to and the other you trust your life.

Nope, I use them to make my chart. The question was basically, do I trade the Renko market....answer: No, I trade the Renko chart.