Roger Felton

From the last post, looks like this thread topic has degraded into total nonsensical jibberish. Every TL member knows what a true Forum is and I think they can tell that this isn't one by definition. A Forum is a free exchange of ideas and information based on honesty and fairness. It's a place where men and women can meet and not be bullied and attacked because of their race, religion, age or occupation. TL has just never lived up to that definition at any time in the years I've been a member. Trying to help fellow traders and be a valuable contributing member of this Forum has always been met with insults and false accusations with no basis in fact. Me and my family have been threatened with physical harm by people here for no reason than I'm a vendor. I'm always left feeling like a black guy who stumbled into a KKK rally. I kept thinking that surely not all members here are like this. I hope not. But trying to contribute and help here...as well as learn new things from others has just been a lousy miserable experience that I can well do without. So I will. Last one to go bring the flag... Sometime in the future, I hope this forum can grow and mature and evolve into what a real forum should be. Where each member is treated equally with civility and respect and are judged according to their willingness to listen, learn and contribute. A forum where differing opinions are encouraged but mean, vicious, unfounded baseless attacks are not tolerated by anyone. Till then, see ya!

Gee whillickers, SIUYA...where in that paragraph does it say anything about paying any money for anything? I said that, in the trading room, we trade...not teach. Anyone wanting to learn what we do, our signals, our indicators, our method need only ask and I will teach them. I don't give away our software but I don't mind explaining what it does. We don't have "fancy" indicators, etc., just ones that do a great job. We believe that winning is easier if a trader uses a system that gives them an edge...something different that won't die because everyone is doing it. It's our opinion which we're entitled to...and certainly not cause for you to become so upset. We don't accept payment from TL members and we like to trade with an edge we're willing to explain for free. For that you want to slander me? You can print whatever notes you care to print, SIUYA. I didn't realize your limited exposure and understanding made for an opinion beyond reproach. I only wanted to point out how limited your research was. I sincerely hope you didn't purposly mislead anyone in your published "report" and I hope that, if you have additional information that you will not withhold it from anyone curious about it. Am I correct in my understanding that you talked to someone who did not want software updates? At FT, our philosophy is to take as much of the measuring, calculating, anticipating, filtering and data crunching and let the computer do it...it's much better equipped. In return, traders need to master skills that humans perform much better than computers ever could. Most users appreciate the updates that continually do a better job with each release while someone evidently wants a static system that never gets any better. No one can please everyone and we're no exception. Your agenda is obvious. So please, SIUYA, with all due respect, go threaten someone else.

Spot on! Try scalping for 10 ticks when half of your contracts are getting filled at the same time you should be getting out of the trade.

Anyone coming into the room who needs more evaluation time only needs to request it. Some have done this for a month or two. At some point, we do let them know that a charge will be necessary because we have to pay the service (such as HotComm, Omnovia, WebEx, etc.) but we try to be as generous as we can. I can repeat this a thousand times and some still won't get it. I WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY PAYMENT IN ANY FORM FROM ANY TL FORUM SUBSCRIBER. Period. This means when we cannot continue paying their way, we simply must close them out and hope they enjoyed and benefited from the time they spent. If I accepted any TL trader as a room subscriber, software purchaser, or student member, I would be violating a promise I made some time ago in the hopes of convincing the many "vendor haters" in this group that I was not fishing for prospects here. I've been tested a few times so some know I'm serious. I don't need to go look for new clients. I get plenty from student referrals and word of mouth. If I accepted any money from anyone here, I would lose all credibility and I be slammed all over the Internet for dishonesty. I'm just not going to do that to get clients I don't need. My offer to TL members is to help them in whatever area of difficulty they are experiencing. I've seen it all many hundreds of times. Same issues, different faces. Traders are not going to suddenly start winning just by watching me trade in the room. Getting a trader to achieve their real potential takes a lot of effort on my part so the time I can spend with a TL member is limited, but still effective. It's friend helping friend but it just can't be an intensive lifetime committment as it is with my students. Ok, enough on that. The suggestion that, if one can make $200 with 2 contracts, they can make boatloads by adding more contracts doesn't work for many traders in the real world. When they trade 2, they don't fear the loss if it fails (or shouldn't). If they then trade 20, 50 or 100 contracts on the next trade, they are almost guaranteed to fail because of the level of fear that would generate for most traders. Fear = Stress = Mistakes. Trading big lots is something traders have to build up to slowly over time as thir account and confidence increases sufficiently. Your misunderstanding of how 1K is made with 2 contracts is due to your not asking any questions when you visited us. It can be done in one single market but would just take longer. The Trading Room is only open for 4 hours a day so 2 or 3 instruments are watched to get more trades in a much shorter period of time. It also keeps the action going so the room stays interesting. A good instrument such as GC or CL will produce 15to 20 reasonably good trades in an 8 hour day but taking every trade is highly discouraged. Much fewer are necessary if the trader has mastered their system, proper trade management, and themselves. As for Ingot - well - i am sure once he sets his pay pal up he would get the same flak as any vendor To me, that makes no logical sense whatsoever. Even the most boneheaded trader knows that the most expensive trading systems they will ever use are the ones that are free.

Prospects? What prospects? If I ever took one dime from anybody in this forum I'd be run out of the country on a rail. Ya know, I gotta chuckle. A guy like Ingot comes out with the hands down absolute "Holy Grail" trading system with no proof whatsoever and nobody says a word...except maybe "wow". I come here and say that 1K a day is doable with 2 contracts and can easily prove it and nobody even bothers to take a look. If they liked what they saw, I'd teach them how to do it for free. But nobody takes a look. Then they sit back and wallow in the misery of failure and wonder "why me Lord?"...and never take a friggin' look. Yes, 1K (on average) per day is doable if someone has the willingness to spend some time learning how. Emotions and Trade Management are the biggest learning hurdles. I've been trading 8 to 10 hours a day for 17 years so, yes, I've gotten pretty good at it. But, initially, most traders are happy to just make $200/day or so which doesn't require as much work. I teach how it's done and I do it for free for most of the traders who spend time with me. For a couple dozen who want extensive personal mentorship for the rest of their life, yeah, I charge a little. That makes me a "vendor" and, yet, for that level of committment everyone in this forum would do the same...or they'd just simply refuse to do it. One by one many of you will run out of willpower or run out of money and go away. In many cases it could have been preventable and wouldn't have cost anything but time. But, one can't give what nobody wants and I get that. You guys take care. Best wishes!

Try the YM or TF if the minis are your thing...

I know you are citing hypothetical examples here based on your experience, knowledge and the way you trade but, to most traders, it's weak advice. Your example uses 20 contracts in the ES. Why, with all the other futures markets offering tremendous trading advantages, do you choose to trade one that is one of the worst choices any trader can make? The relative slow, low range and the quarter point tick increments really stack the cards against the small trader. Liquidity is it's only advantage and that only helps the high rollers and big institutions. Who here could comfortably lose $2500 on a single 20 contract ES trade with an average 10 tick stop? Most traders would have to trade wearing Depends. I prove almost every day that practically any trader can make $1000+ per day trading just 2 contracts per trade on a dozen trades or less. A trade's success happens between the ears long before it happens on a computer screen. The trouble is, nobody wants to take the time and effort to learn anything. If the system alone can't do it, then they'll find one that does. They never do. Then they whine and moan about how no system works and they walk away from trading feeling bitter. Funny, I know of some mediocre golfers who spent tens of thousands of dollars on the finest golf clubs money can buy, then felt scammed when they couldn't take their 120 avg. down to the 60's. When will they ever learn that the clubs don't make the pro, nor the bowling ball, not the hockey stick or the soccer ball? Perhaps, if traders just keep plugging away the clouds will part and a booming voice will come down and a magic transformation will occur. Or, if they just read enough blogs, somebody will part with the real Holy Grail. Maybe some vender whose been scamming traders for years will have a change of heart and share his secret "good stuff" for free. Or there's always the chance some guy on the street will make ya a deal on some actual Pixie Dust that allows you to win at will. And then there's always the possibility that your broker will let you take a few Mulligans. Somewhere out in TraderLand there's a head bobbing up and down in agreement that all those possibilities are actually probabilities. Just don't mention study, effort, learning or practice and you've got their attention.

Personally, I've always had the best experience with dead mentors. They don't scream at me much, slap me silly, kick me in the southern posterior and they don't ask for money. Best of all, they know how to listen to my trading troubles without interrupting. I never met a bad dead mentor, just a few that smelled that way.

This has always been nothing more than a discussion. We can only respond to the statements of others with the knowledge we have accumulated through experience. Your beliefs about mentors and "gurus" is completely understandable. Even as I write this, some truck driver is planning to park his Peterbuilt and become a market expert next week...as soon as he can figure out what a chart is. All of these slimeball scam masters have common elements that are easy to spot. They all state (or strongly imply) that their indicators, system, method or course will get any trader to whatever goals they set quickly and easily. Requires little or no effort and can be learned in a day. They all teach the same tired ole crap everyone else does...S&R, Fibonacci, Pivots, Market Profile, Market Delta, Gann, Elliot Wave...and on and on and on. That's like learning basket weaving to become a doctor. Even if it helps, it's far short of what's necessary. When you do a search of their operation, you find tons of former students with lots of horror stories begging you to beware. These jerks can't even maintain an A rating with the BBB. They can't teach, they can't help, but they can sell with enough pressure to make diamonds. They also NEVER receive kudos from their followers like this that just came accross in the Trading Room while I was typing this: [11:51] Leigh Ev****ton-Student: Hey Roger - thanks again for the one on one session. just finished the day 98 ticks up Please understand, I included this to make a point that not all educator/mentors in this maggot infested industry are worthless bums. It was not posted to "self-promote". Those who have been following my posts for the past year or so know that I refuse to accept any student client (on a fee basis) that originates from this forum. That way, I can talk honestly and openly and not be accused of having a hidden agenda. However, anyone in the forum who wants my help can have it for free for the asking. In this forum, I'm just another trader willing to help others however I can just like most other seasoned traders here do.

Yes, but in the past, we had real journalists in the major media who weren't accomplices to the abusers. Today, there are no more watchdogs so the crooks can and do pretty much whatever they want.

I stand corrected. You actually said, "With some effort and thought, most intelligent people will figure out the BS by themselves." So, what I should have said is that you considered them to not be intelligent. I don't know how I could have been so far off. Forgive.... Look TD, I think you are the one who's missing the point. You keep talking about people lacking passion yet I have preached dozens of times in this forum that no one can ever become a trader without it. Without Strong drive and burning desire, it's not gonna happen. I think we all get that here. You're preaching to the choir. What I'm talking about are teh multitudes of traders here who have spent small and large fortunes on systems, blown up an account, or several. Who have invested years of studying, practicing, and supreme effort and yet continue to lose. Traders who have read all the Internet fluff you brag about yet still struggle. Traders who lose money on a daily basis because they have picked up a bad habit or two that they are not aware of...or they lack just a few pieces of the knowledge puzzle that they need to turn things around. Your advice is to go comb the Internet some more and my advice is to get with someone who has seen their identical issues hundreds of times and has successfully worked through them the vast majority. To do that takes a hell of a lot of knowledge and many many years of experience. Effective, lasting help will never come from some trader's blog. I think your understanding of the real function of a trading mentor is so warped by your miserable experience with an apparent fraud, that you can no longer be objective or even reasonable...and, as good as Pele was, he still had professionals at various times in his career that he worked with to help him be the best and stay that way. It's what truly good mentors do.

So, to be a trader, all one needs to do is read all the crap they can find on the Internet, then sit down and start pushing buttons? Advice is just confusing jibberish? Above all, do not analyze and try to get any logical idea what the market is likely to do, that's BS? Just close your eyes and click the mouse, huh? Wow. I would have bet any amount of money that there wasn't one person on the planet that actually believed that. I'm actually stunned. If you actually follow your own advice, I'd bet anything you aren't making it as a trader. You get all your "training" from the bonehead bozos who post their trading tips on the Internet yet can't spell S&P? Well, I guess since it's on the Internet, it has to be true, right? Reminds me of that TV commercial...."Uh, Bonjour!

Right on SIUYA. Anyone who chooses Larry, Curly or Moe to get trading advice will end up with a head full of useless mush and blow their account to bacon bits. Still, it happens every day and the ones who could actually help them the most take all the flak.

Interesting comments. I'm sure you realize that the vast majority of traders on this forum are struggling with the "BS" and have been for quite some time. Are you saying they're all stupid? I'm surprised that you mentioned "pro sports". A field where every single player who ever reached pro level (where they actually made money) whether it's baseball, football, basketball or hockey ALL HAD COACHES!! Even as pros...they still ALL HAVE COACHES!! Why is that when everything they need to know about the rules of the game are right there on the Internet? Are they all stupid like you think your fellow forum members are? I've seen a lot of ignorant posts on this forum but I'm moving this one to the top of the list.

When you want to learn to swim, hire a swimming instructor and pay him. If you want to learn to fly, hire a pilot instructor...and pay him. If you want to be a pro golfer, hire a really good coach...and pay him. But, if you want to become a successful trader, find someone who is a damn good trader yet has the ability to teach (rare combo), a guy who you can call on for hours at a time of extensive professional help ...even at 9:00 at night or whenever you feel like it on weekends & holidays. Make sure they help you for as long as it takes...even if it takes years and hundreds of sessions with them. Make him pour over your trades to spot anything that you may have missed. Make him teach you everything he knows about trading and has spent his life learning. Do all this, work his buns to the bone, and then DON"T PAY HIM A DIME! After all, he's just a trading instructor and everybody knows they're all lower than whale poop. They're all undeserving...no matter how good they are. Don't even bother to say thanks. That idiotic logic will baffle me to my grave. Maybe then I can try my hand at mentoring to wmck6167.

"The markets always find a way to give you more Bull than you can Bear"....R. Felton

No truer words ever spoken. I've never seen any time in my life where priviledged positions were so universally abused, corrupt and the effects so devastating to others. Nor have I ever seen a time when so many people made aware actually didn't give a damn. But if Kim K. wears the wrong shoes with the wrong dress, all hell breaks loose. Go figure.

Good points to ponder, for sure...

Now there's proof positive that you can be "crusty" without being ornery. You go girl....LOL Do ya think Chris Huhne should burn in Hades for going 69 in a 50 or for facial texture resembling an IHOP waffle? Just thinkin out loud....

. Competitive? Almost certainly. Ruthless? Probably more a stereotypical cliche than an accurate assessment. If you look up "Rich", "Wealthy", "Investor" or "Successful", I don't think the word "ruthless" appears anywhere except in perhaps jealous minds. MM, you are a trader and, from what I understand a good one. As you once told me, you have a trading system that almost never loses and I think that's terrific. Some day, if you haven't already, you might turn that sucker lose and haul in tremendous profit daily...and I'll be cheering you on. If not already, you may become one of the richest most successful traders to ever gaze upon a chart. Do I then assume you are automatically ruthless for no other reason than how successful you were? With every trade you or anyone else takes, you can choose to want to win or to want to lose. We all make that difficult choice all the time. When we choose to win, and manage to do so, we're astute competent professional traders. When Warren Buffet does it, he's ruthless? Perhaps he is but beng an exceptional investor isn't a synonym. Ruthlessness can and does exist in the world. The biggest infestation is in Washington DC. Congress has (until recently) enjoyed the benefits of insider trading forever. With vast wealth usually comes power and there lies the rub. Ruthlesness comes from the power of having wealth, not the necessarily the money itself. Take George Soros...a filthy rich power mad prick that decimates entire countries by destroying their currency just to make a buck. That's ruthless. Buffet is no Soros from what I can tell. But then, I could be wrong.

Interesting take on a fascinating gentleman. I don't think it's ever feasible to sit hundreds, or thousands, of miles from someone I never met and know personally and paint an accurate picture of them. I would be more inclined to assume that he has a strong self-image and doesn't need "stuff" to make him feel like a big shot. I would think that he probably follows some companies before making a heavy investment but that he also has a team of professionals that does most of the grunt work now. Just guessing. I would think that he just enjoys making the money for all the good he can do with it in the world. He sure doesn't plan on spoiling his kids with it. Or maybe he just likes to make money so he can torment his secretary by flaunting his lower tax rate at her. Who knows? Only the people closest to him know what makes him tick but you can bet your behind he's not miserable and won't end up broke and dead in a flophouse somewhere. Success is nothing more than having everything you need to be happy...and that always means different things to different people... but it's never relative to how much stuff you have.

Right on. Computers trade on logic, humans trade on emotion. Your "fluid" rules are something way beyond current coding capability to understand and mimic.

At least for me, a R2R ratio could never be a "rule" because it omits a vital piece of data...the W/L ratio. As a trader, I'm a scalper 99% of the time. I may shoot for 6 ticks on one trade and 30 ticks on another depending on what the market tells me is there with a high probability. I care nothing about what might be there with a mediocre probability. On a given trade I might go for 10 ticks and use a 15 tick stop. Traders recoil in horror at the very thought. However, statistically and consistently, over a long period of time, if a trader's W/L ratio is, say, 17 out of 20, then who cares? The trader is making money. In fact, in this example, profit could be made if a 50 tick stop were used with a 10 tick target! By using swing highs and swing lows on certain specific bar types, the market will also tell you the amount of stop necessary. So, there will be occasions when perhaps a 5 tick max. stop might be needed while the profit potential might be 80%+ that 30 ticks will be there. No two trades are ever identical though they may appear that way to most traders. A Risk to Reward ratio is useless information unless it is used in conjunction with the individual traders well-established Win to Loss ratio. Funny, you almost never hear traders talk about something so completely logical.

I think you will find I covered that in a recent post....a good point to say again, though