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TRO, thanks for your response, 1. Could you elaborate with a simple sketch or chart what is a "1-2-3 semafor for 3 different Zig-Zag period" without getting into any indicator discussion. 2. There is 3 marked on your chart in post 426 which appears to be after 3 waves down , is this what you mean in which case when would 1, and 2 appear. 3. Red Rat Zone you refer to as 20pips below High of Day and High of Day, so effectively in simple language a zone in the upper range of a day bar of 20pips and vice versa for the Green Rat Zone. Now when you say that price leaves these Red Rat zone when it retraces off from the daily high, what is meant exactly, does the price breakdown towards south or breakout north???? 4. I realise usage of terms from the animal and plant kingdom are in vogue in the trading world (woodie: Shamu, Ghost, Tradeguider: polar bear in Hawaii, Palm tree in Alaska") what I was wondering is it not possible to stick to simple terms like price zone Finally I would like to request other folks to refrain from all this bashing post after post, it just lengthens the argument and this thread without adding any substance, totally futile pursuit. Allow TRO to explain please

Kiwi, I presume you are from Gold Coast, Queensland, downunder The other Gold Coast which is now Ghana is in Africa. Could you enlighten me on the Nigerian angle:) We do get many scams here in UK perpetrated by conartists from that region promising large amounts of cash running into millions of dollars to transfer some phoney funds from a nigerian minister to US or UK etc.

TRO, Before my original post (111) for some clarification from you gets lost, I will repaste it here with the hope that after a rejuvinating break you will be kind enough to respond. "Hi TRO I am amazed at this thread, pages after pages of ongoing controversy, why? When I land on a site or thread which has no value for me in my trading, I just ignore it, why get involved in heated debates and arguments post after post, surely there are better things to do, pointless))) TRO, I have strayed here a bit late, so you will have to excuse a dumb question: Could you please elaborate on the following: 1) Only trade if there is a 1, 2 or 3 semafor on the current or previous H1, H4 or D1 candle. NO EXCEPTIONS. 2) After you see the semafor on the chart, look at the chart for the long(indigo) and short(magenta) triggers based on TRO RAT ZONE indicator What exactly is "semafor" and TRO RAT ZONE Think there is value in your simple trading approach though not necessarily for everyone and in that respect, folks should be grateful for your effort. Happy holidays

TRO before my original posting for some clarification gets lost , I will repaste it, hope you would be kind enough to respond after a rejuvinating break during these auspicious holiday period. "Hi TRO I am amazed at this thread, pages after pages of ongoing controversy, why? When I land on a site or thread which has no value for me in my trading, I just ignore it, why get involved in heated debates and arguments post after post, surely there are better things to do, pointless))) TRO, I have strayed here a bit late, so you will have to excuse a dumb question: Could you please elaborate on the following: 1) Only trade if there is a 1, 2 or 3 semafor on the current or previous H1, H4 or D1 candle. NO EXCEPTIONS. 2) After you see the semafor on the chart, look at the chart for the long(indigo) and short(magenta) triggers based on TRO RAT ZONE indicator What exactly is "semafor" and TRO RAT ZONE Think there is value in your simple trading approach though not necessarily for everyone and in that respect, folks should be grateful for your effort. Happy holidays

Tams, over the past 15yrs I have noticed that what you have outlined is not unique to this thread, it is far more prevalent than we think. Sometime back Joel Pozen , so called price/vol guru pulled in suckers from here on the VSA thread.($5000 course, having seen the outcome from a colleague who enrolled into one, can tell you he would have been better off getting the free stuff available here on the Wyckoff forum) Similarly Sebastian Manby enticed countless into VSA club (suckers have piled in paying $150/month, hell , beats trading in real markets, does it not with that kind of money rolling in every month) Tom Williams, Gavin, the whole circus is now profiting(wonder if any donations have been made to Soultrader:)))) for allowing 2 or 3 mammoth threads to proliferate here. Numerous concerted effort has been made my DBphoenix, Bearbull and others to highlight the fact that VSA is merely a derivative of Wyckoff and that it would a lot cheaper to study the original source. What started off as a one or 2 man outfit here in UK struggling to market VSA software for even less than $250 is now being sold like hot cakes in US for over $5000:)))))) plus over $3000 dollars for various DVDs, courses etc, and then add on top $150/month, plus ongoing seminars and weekend retreats for detailed hindsight chart analysis, WHY THIS IS SO: SIMPLE, there are gullible traders outthere who believe something unique is on offer here, not realising the fact that it is just regurgitation and distorted version of nearly 100yr old principles elegantly elucidated by Wyckoff So in that respect TRO stands out as a magnanimous angel Personally I have an open mind, I will monitor the markets with hourly chart and observe for myself the simple method he has outlined ignoring all other talk about this or that indicator. and that really is all that is required. If there is value, I will incorporate into my trading or else just move on, certainly won't persist here and engage in bashing exercise post after post.)))))

Hi TRO I am amazed at this thread, pages after pages of ongoing controversy, why? When I land on a site or thread which has no value for me in my trading, I just ignore it, why get involved in heated debates and arguments post after post, surely there are better things to do, pointless:)))) TRO, I have strayed here a bit late, so you will have to excuse a dumb question: Could you please elaborate on the following: 1) Only trade if there is a 1, 2 or 3 semafor on the current or previous H1, H4 or D1 candle. NO EXCEPTIONS. 2) After you see the semafor on the chart, look at the chart for the long(indigo) and short(magenta) triggers based on TRO RAT ZONE indicator What exactly is "semafor" and TRO RAT ZONE Think there is value in your simple trading approach though not necessarily for everyone and in that respect, folks should be grateful for your effort. Happy holidays

Great post on being charitable, essence of the LAW OF KARMA

With Tradeguider/VSA , you will find it is easier to identify opportunities in hindsight and in their archived webinar you will find it so also, there are VSA signals all over the place but they highlight the ones just prior to a trend change but in hindsight analysis only. e.g a climatic move and then a test on low vol, no supply for a change from bear to bull trend. You will observe that in the bear trend there will also be a few vol spikes and low vol tests but these are ignored by the so called VSA experts, they will point out the ones just as the bull trend started. Todd was originally from the old wyckoff school and then got involved with VSA, now he has reverted back to it. So the best route, why bother with all this second hand stuff, download the 7th chapter from the Wyckoff course available on the Wyckoff forum "Determining The Trend of the Market by the Daily Vertical Chart" , read it 20times, all the principles are there ie. cause/effect, supply/demand, effort/result" and they work on any time frame, you can check them on realtime data on a daily basis on 5min, 15min etc. Plus there is a ton of invaluable info. on the Wyckoff forum as well.

Looks like there is going to be a subscription based Audio service.

Yes lot of confirmation of setups take place in hindsight on the charts and it would be extremely difficult for many to latch onto this in realtime. Despite the fact the emphasis is on 5min charts there is also mention of daily charts 60min timeframe, volume on 1min etc. so obviously Al is looking at more charts than just the 5min. Anyway Al has been observing and trading these setups over 20yrs hence becomes a second nature to him, IMO if you take the trouble to understand price action via both price and vol, it would make life that much easier. Also if you thoroughly review and understand the fundamental concepts of his methodology outlined in his article "Trading Breakouts and MicroTrend lines" where he states and elaborates "Two of the most reliable entries are failed breakouts and breakout pullbacks " and then go and study the material in the book or on the EOD charts or on realtime charts, you will find that that is at the heart of all the other setups . The other major one is TraderVic 123 reversal setups.http://www.trading-naked.com/123-reversal.htm, however these also without due consideration to vol whether climatic or not and ensuing supply/demand balance in the sidesways or flag pattern breaking the trendline would lead to many failed trades.

Think you will also find that the 8 articles in Futures Mag are much easier read and provide enough info. on the methodology , also the seminars provide greater clarity. The Daily commentary is certainly valuable, however was surprised lately as to how Al finds time to type all that in.)) Guess he has observed all this over such along period, it is like multitasking whilst driving a car.

Great design Soultrader , is there an easier way of pasting full charts rather than as attachment to the text

Insightful post on rat experiment, wish we could be like that in trading;) However that is what Mark Douglas teaching is all about- embracing probabilities

1. Any business e.g opening a store is inherently risky, there are no guarantees it will be a profitable venture, more so, if necessary market research for the product, location etc , availability of materials, cost accounting etc has not been carried out. 2. Be under no illusion, like any profession, (where years of education, discipline and experience are required), trading futures is a fast way of parting with your cash if enough hardwork via education, testing etc has not been done. Just getting a computer, charting pack and datafeed is not enough. 3. Best way to get around is ask yourself simple questions: Do you want to be an intraday trader , if so again there are numerous timeframes to work from ranging from a tick chart to hourly charts. What are you risk tolerances Are you well capitalised. There are many more , get hold of some basic books 1. Principles of professional speculation by Victor Sperando 2. Techniques of Tape Reading by Vadym Graifer 3. High Probability Trading by Marcel Link 4. Day Trading Tactics by Josh Lukeman 5. Reading Price Charts by Al Brooks In short learn the business, give yourself a couple of years at least for this process. Best of Luck

What stands out in Al's trading style is that his best trades are based on locations where either longs or shorts are trapped and he has been able to recognise those setups via 5min charts with high level of accuracy and is consistently profitable. He just states that one can do so on 1min or 3min charts as well but it would be somewhat difficult and that it would be sufficient to just trade from 5min chart to make a good living. Nowhere he enters in depth on right and wrongs of tick charts, smart/dumb money, wyckoff etc, so really this whole debate is not contributing much to this thread and as OP suggested should be taken on another thread.

Interesting discussion folks, however get the feeling we are veering off the main topic of this thread . As jolee pointed out Al's setups are pretty straight forward and many of them are well documented in other technical analysis book i.e trendline breaks, retest, pullbacks to 20ema etc (Tradervic,Nqoos website). What comes through from the book and Al's webinars and other articles, is that he has gone through all of the indicators including pivots, s/r, vol , various timeframe analysis etc over his trading career and has arrived at an intraday trading method based on simple 5min and 20ema analysis and it works for him. Over the years as he says he has printed these charts EOD and marked out the various setups which repeat themselves on a daily basis and he has assembled them in various chapters in the book. That is all. Traders have taken notice of these and are verifying with their own experience on a daily basis. It will work for some and not others. Nothing wrong with that. Don't believe Al is saying mine is the only way. Whether he is successful or not is largely irrelevant, one only needs to take a few setups from the book and find out for him or herself if they can be observed on the charts intraday and whether or not one is able to trade with them on a consistent basis, if not move on. Al could have easily like the Tradeguider crowd(with their herd, dumb money, BB, smart money jargon) gone on to establish trading rooms, seminars, DVD's , bootcamps - easier route to making money than realtime trading;)

Was merely making an observation:) Agreed, although overall Al prefers trading from 5min charts, he often makes references to 1min, 3min and even higher time frame charts. and yes what you stated regarding price being in continuous motion and any illustration of it being arbitrary has been eloquently explained and emphasized by Dbphoenix a number of times on the Wyckoff forum. Infact he trades from tick charts using TD against relevant S/R

Notice you employ 1min charts, presume the MA is 20ema, although Al does not recommend trading from this timeframe, however whatever is comfortable and profitable for you, I guess.

Thanks, back to more constructive exchange:) Yes agree with you, anything which provides an extra edge in today's markets. What you state about volume is also right, think Dbphoenix on the Wyckoff thread has also pointed out a number of times that: 1. Volume is just activity and not intent 2. It is selling that makes up volume, no matter what the demand. Personally do not have the tools that are at your disposal but am well versed in Wyckoff as well as Taylor and find great benefit in reading Effort (volume) v/s Result (price range) on any particular time frame.- am not into big swing trading, strictly intraday and that also focus for an hour or two (morning and evening)looking for the main play of the day as per Taylor only, if no trade, there will be another day;)

UrmaBlume, Your efforts are very much appreciated, I have a question, does this all suggest that in today's markets, reading price and volume relationships as per Wyckoff is no longer relevant. ie. Supply/Demand, Cause/Effect, Effort/Result, Support/Resistance, and Trends.

Frank, Having read you posts on the Taylor thread, your insights are always appreciated. 1. When you talk about retracement on the opening bar, are you referrring to a 30min chart ie. 30min bar. 2. If so when you say market brackets, are you talking about overlap of 30min bars during the day. Perhaps you could illustrate with a chart, it would be much better to understand on a visual basis.

Now who is sulking and behaving like a school kid? Grow up man, you are not the only one who has been through tough times. Who ever told you trading is a walk in the park. You are the one who initially posted offensive comments so accept that. Yes we understand you lost in program trading, how does that reflect on everybody else who post on these forums. We have all lost in this business at some point in time. That does not mean we blame everybody else for our mistakes. Only children engage in that:))

Here is a super definition of an Edge by Dbphoenix: "An edge is the knowledge proved through research that a particular price pattern or market behavior offers an acceptable level of predictability and risk to reward to provide a consistently profitable outcome over time." This means you have to develop your own edge and this embodies considerable effort, study, screen time, testing, establishing strategies/tactics with entry/exit rules, discipline to follow those rules and paramount of all is the ability to adopt a probabilitistic mindset. To look for an edge elsewhere is akin to looking for a setup with a green light to enter and red light to exit, a futile search. In this respect there is more than sufficient info. on this excellent website for any newcomer. eg. From Taylors thread, there are adequate posts and insights there to learn the basics of his method, then a trader has to make an effort to study and create a book, determine price objectives for each day, there are specific rules for trading each day to focus on, depending on your designation of the day i.e Buy Day, Sell Day, Sell Short Day. With the strategies in place, the tactics for entry and exit are determined by study of price action, Wyckoff forum has enough info.(both theory and practical) to throttle an elephant. However in Wyckoff, there are no green and red lights, considerable time and effort has to be put into to read the market. What does all this mean: Effort on the part of the trader to establish an edge in the marketplace. Any experienced trader would be aware of all this. Does not take 30-40 yrs to figure it out Whether some other traders are making money or not is largely irrelevant. I am sure there are many here who are making adequate to decent living out of trading be it daytrading or swing trading. Don't require posts by George Soros or Buffet here to gain confidence Still waiting some input on RM686 own methodology, afterall with 40yrs experience, he should have a whole manual on edges. Why not become a pioneer and post some here with charts rather than winging that none exists on these sites. And if folks already have this knowledge i.e non-existence of real edge info, gained through past experience, then why bother to come on to the forums in the first place and if the urge to do that is proving irresistable, they as I said before, why not make a pioneering effort and be the first to do that:)))

RM686, Perhaps you could elaborate on which instruments you trade now and using which time frames and employing which methodology. IMO if you look at various threads/forum here, like one on Wyckoff, Taylor, Candlesticks, Al Brooks, there is enough info. on various strategies/tactics to provide the required edge to any newcomer. One does not require purchase of sophisticated charting packs or attend seminars/courses etc for this.

Thks atto, notice a lot of folks on the Wyckoff forum trade NQ, will have to start looking at this instrument, was under the impression that these tech stocks were far too volatile ie. spikey, hence the index would also be the same. correct me if I am wrong NQ moves in 0,25pt(1tick) = $5, hence 1pt would be $20 What is the average daily range?