thalestrader

I am sorry to hear that, MidK. It certainly has not been my intent to cause anyone regret, and if you feel I have been picking on you, I apologize. You were kind enough to offer us a most honest and comprehensive view of what you were experiencing, and thus I perhaps over used your example. I hope we don't lose you, but I understand your feelings and I appreciate your contributions here. Best Wishes, Thales

A quick look at the opening gambits ... Best Wishes, Thales

I'll bet she's doing a bit better than many of the "elite traders" posting on that other forum. Best Wishes, Thales

There is much to be said for reading an author in his or her own language, though I do believe a careful and sensitive translator can convey the author's intent (I'm one of those old fashioned folks who think that a writer's intended meaning can be accessible to the reader, even across time and culture). At the same time, a careless translator, or worse, a translator with a certain ideological agenda, can destroy a text beyond recognition in the process of translating. If one were to read Jowett's Republic, and then the Allen Bloom translation, one might find come away feeling that one or the other got something wrong given the differences. By the way, I'd argue that Bloom got it right. Best Wishes, Thales

I think that is true, and as you and I have both said early on, and others have more recently offered, she did not have a brainful of baggage to contend with as most of us do by the time we get to a place such as this. And of course, another factor in her favor is that she was all about the ticks won vs. lost, and not concerned with making money or losing money. Not too long ago, MidK posted about his struggles and wondered about our weekly PnL. I thought after that that it does more harm and no good to post PnL figures in dollar terms, so any PnL I may mention going forward will be strictly in terms of ticks(pips) won/lost, and not dollar terms. After all, the focus should be on capturing more pips of price movement than one loses. The money will follow. Best Wishes, Thales

Hi Folks, Making some pre-open notes. Best Wishes, Thales

Perhaps one of the most valuable posts I've read if one accepts the truth contained within, not least of which is this: It takes practice, practice, practice. A wonderful post, Richard. Thank you. Best Wishes, Thales

As is every blessing I have been fortunate to receive in this life. Best Wishes, Thales

The EU short was based off the break low of a very small swing. In hindsight, it was an excellent entry. But I do not have the benefit of trading in hindsight, so I have to trade based upon what I see. In this case, given the relatively small size of the swing that indicated the short entry, I would have exited at breakeven, maybe even a few ticks better than breakeven. Now, for the GU, you are correct, in that if I were running that trade off of the swings you are focused upon, I'd have been at PT1 and PT2, and thus flat for the larger break (or having to enter a new short position on the break). However, as I said when I posted that trade, I was using that small swing to get me into a larger anticipated break based upon the swing sequence of which the swings you are looking at were but a small part. I have attached another look at the GU. The small annotations are where you are looking, but I was trading an anticipated break based upon the LARGE annotations. Two different degrees of price action, two different sets of PT's, Two different Stop progressions. Chart 1 Shows the two swings together. Chart 2 Shows the Trade as I planned it, but my actual entry was higher than the heavy blue line. Chart 3 Shows the trade as Don is viewing it. I did enter at that entry point (thin blue line), but as I said when I posted the trade, my intention was to hold for the lower targets. I also show my BE stop move line (dotted magenta) and my PT's. Both PT's would have been filled on that trade before the bounce back to BE. I cannot make it any paliner than that, Don. I was certainly clear as to where my PT's were at the time I was posting the trade, as is evident form the chart posted here: Look at the size of those PT's! There is no way I'd expect that kind of reward from the swing you are fixed upon. I simply used a smaller degree short to cut my risk to -40 from the -90 I'd have run if I had waited for the proper entry. You are missing the forest for the trees, as they say. Speaking of Forrest, where has Forrest been? Best Wishes, Thales

"There is, for example, the way of Thales of Miletus. This is a business scheme which is attributed to him on account of his wisdom, yet it happens to be general in its application. For they say that when some, on account of Thales poverty reproached him with the uselessness of philosophy, Thales, observing through his knowledge of astronomy that there would be a good harvest of olives, was able, during the winter, to raise a small sum of money to place in deposit on all the olive presses in both Miletus and Chios, which he would hire at a low rate because no one was competing with him; then, when the season came, and many of them were suddenly in demand at the same time, he hired them out on what terms he pleased and collected a great deal of money, thus showing how easy it is for philosophers to become wealthy if they wish, but it is not this that they are serious about. Thales, then, is said to have made a display of his business expertise in this manner, though, as we said, this piece of business expertise is universal, if someone is able to establish a monopoly for himself.( Aristotle, Politics, 1259a5-21). Best Wishes, Thales

Right, within an overall bear market, there will be multiple 123's as price seeks its ultimate support level. There will also be multiple 123's that lead to tradable, profitable rallies. So, there are two trends going on at the same time - a large bear trend, and within that overall trend, price may be in the middle of a short term rally. This approach works in both trends. But you must be aware of which trend you are trading with at the time. Best Wishes, Thales

I'll share how and why I landed here at some point. I briefly pursued a career in teaching and took a position at a small liberal arts college. I knew form my experience teaching that in the process of presenting material to others you yourself gain as well. But I have indeed learned more about myself and my trading from what I have shared here and with my daughter than I would thought possible. This has been a far more positive experience for me than I had anticipated. And I would add that I do not think it could have been nearly so positive had I been silly enough to to try it at ET, FF, or T2W. James has truly created a serious Trader's Community here in the middle of the uck and muck of the internet (Thanks, James). Best Wishes, Thales

I would just like to make the following clarifications/observations/points to Markos's excellent observation: 1) You do not need to drop down to a one minute chart to see the exits I posted in response to Don's question. In fact, you do not need a chart at all. You can watch what price is doing in your DOM, your broker;s trading station, etc. You do not need a chart. A chart is a tool whose value is modtly the recording of unobserved history. If you are observing price, you do not need a chart to see price drop to a low point, rally, pullback but hold above its most recent low point, and then rally to a higher high than the first rally from the initial low. Compare what we are doing here to the Livermore's and the Wyckoff's et. al. They did not have streaming bars and candles. They had a ticker. They used their memory to record their observations, and acted upon that information accordingly. We simply use our charts as our memory. 2) Don asked about two examples where a trader would have been stopped into trades that moved very little and only briefly in the trader's favor. My answers were based upon what is visible in hindsight on a one minute chart. In real time, you could see thatr it was time to "pull the rip cord" on the fiftenn minute chart or from the trading DOM. You do not need to look at a one minute chart. As I have said elsewhere in this thread, I fully expect price to move quickly in my favor. If price does not do so, I want to be out at the first indication that price is even flirting with the other side of the trade. 3) Resist the temptation to manage a trade from entry to profit targets based solely on these 1-2-3's as they become visible on a one minute chart or as you start to identify them by simply watching the fifteen minute or your trading Dom. You must learn to manage your trades based upon the size of the initial swing that provided you with the indication that an opportunity existed. If you are trading a small swing and you had an initial profit target of 20 ticks and a stop loss of 15 ticks, then the first 1-2-3 that price etches out against your position may be the indication you need to quit the trade, and possibly even reverse your position. However, if your are trading off a swing that gives you a 40 tick stop loss with an initial profit target of 130 ticks, there will likely be visible multiple 123's etched out at the smallest degrees of price movement. This is why I have repeatedly cautioned that you must be aware of each opportunity you trade and the degree or size of the swing which prompted the trade. Best Wishes, Thales

I would add that in addition to trend age, Trader Vic discussed trend extent as well, i.e. how far price has moved. Simply looking at trend age/length in terms of bars will not tell you the whole story. For example, if you look at the GU sell-off this week, and Cory's post of an anticipated support level well below where the market was at the time of his post, you find price ultimately rallied strongly from that level. Regardless of how many bars it took the GU to get there, given the extent of the decline and the manner in which price reacted to Cory's level in the past, a rally from that level was not surprising. Which is to say, price itself, and its behavior at the levels at which it has found overwhelming buying interest and overwhelming selling interest in the past is most significant, and not the discreet units into which one chooses to chop it and view it. As further evidence of this, the Yen pairs (EJ,GJ) both bottomed at levels which anyone should be able to see as having been levels of anticipated support. Each bottomed well before the USD pairs (EU, GU). The time of each pairs respective declines was trumped by the levels to which price declined. Support and resistance matters. Best Wishes, Thales

Exactly. Every "123" as many have taken to calling these sequences is potentially breaking to its terminal extreme and ready to reverse in the direction of the prior or larger trend. Hence my use of a trigger to move my stop to break even. Did you say something similar at the RT Kiwi? Years ago, perhaps? I had a hit of deja vu reading your post. Best Wishes, Thales

No, you didn't. I asked you ... in response to this post of yours ...

I can't tell you how much that last sentence made me laugh! I've said ever since landing here at TL that there are no secrets, nothing to buy, no magic; and yet I get PM's demanding to know what I am "holding back," how someone can "buy my course," and a few who come very close to accusing me of witchcraft. I have given everything in this thread. I can lead a trader to Plato, but I can't make him see its relevance. That you have to do for yourself. Thank you for the excellent post, Richard. Best Wishes, Thales

You quite misunderstand the source of my chagrin. Here is a quote from a post I made here at TL back in May, and it is a sentiment of repeated several times: I was not offended that someone might not wish to take the time to read what I had posted. I do not care whether anyone here holds Plato in high esteem or not. However, whether I speak of Plato or Baruch, Darvas or O'Neil, Schabacker or Wyckoff, I hold that one owes it to him- or herself to read and study the original, rather than a wikipedia article, a TA of S&C article, or an anonymous internet poster's article about the original. If the reading did not appeal to you, that is fine. If you want to discuss why it does not appeal to you, that too is fine and welcome. But why post a link substituting what someone else says Plato meant rather than allowing the original to stand or fall on its own? After all, you are assuming that whoever the author(s) of the wikipedia article is/are correct in his/her/their interpretation. Now, you never did answer my other question: What is meant by the phrase "bear market rally"? Best Wishes, Thales

And right there, your reference to the waves and the relative significance of said waves based upon, in this case, two different time frames, shows why you are thriving while others are faltering. I have suggested folks read or re-read the Ed Seykota interview in Market Wizards. Price moves in waves. Best Wishes, Thales

Dein Englisch ist gut. Sie sollten, um mein Deutsch zu horen. Thank you for your contributions, Marko. I hope you will continue to share with us here.

For the record, my daughter was never under any threat of punishment, and she was free to give up at any time if she had found the activity boring, uninteresting, or burdensome in any way. Best Wishes, Thales

You will short circuit your progress and short change yourself by continually looking for short cuts. A summary of Plato written anonymously on a publically edited and editable web site is hardly a substitute for reading Plato for yourself. My degrees are in political philosophy, and my graduate work was on Aristotle and Plato. In fact, it was my first reading of Aritotle's Politics as an undergrad that led me to open my first commodities account. These are difficult, beautiful texts that reveal more and more of themselves (and thus reveal more and more of you to yourself) upon each subsequent reading. I do not share these weekend readings here as a diversion. Each and everything I recommend has a purpose, a lesson, a point. The wonderful thing about what we see happening here in this thread (and by wonderful I mean literally, "full of wonder") is that we see playing out before us the very situation constructed in Plato's story of the cave, including the degree to which we ourselves become accomplices to our own imprisonment. I find it exceedingly interesting that one of our thread participants who has been doing well writes of the power he feels reading Plato directly, while another of our participants, who confesses to be struggling with the trading material, posts a summary of Plato from a source of dubious accuracy. This is the equivalent of putting and indicator between you and price. And thus the wisdom of Plato shines its light on a human nature which, if not eternal, is nonetheless enduring. Best Wishes, Thales

What is meant by the phrase "Bear Market Rally"? Best Wishes, Thales

Hi jon, A few things, 1) While my approach to trading is built on the same basic concepts, I have tweaked how I apply these concepts to trading different markets. My approach the ES tends to be a bit more rigorous or tighter. While I do from time time take a simple 123-type trade, usually it would be based upon a larger degree, such as would be visible on a 15 minute chart. 2) My approach to trading off of a 5 minute ES has been shown in several examples earlier in this thread. I am not here to change your mind or anything of the sort. You should apply this approach in the manner in which you feel comfortable and which provides you success. That being said, you can search out some of my own ES trades to see what I like to see occur before I enter a position. 3) I would be careful of reading too much into the price action at the end og a holiday shortened trading session. Rather, I'd wait until the new week opens, and then see what price indicates it is likely to do. 4) If this were a regular session at that time of day, I think a break of the prior 15 minute low would have offered a more favorable entry than the one you propose. Again, as this was a holiday shortened day coming inot a weekend close, I would not have done anything. Best Wishes, Thales

Weekend Reading Hi Folks, Here is an excerpt form Plato's Republic known commonly as the "Allegory of the Cave." I'd have preferred the Allan Bloom translation, but I was unable to find a decent electronic copy, and I do not have the time to scan it from my own copy of the book, so the Jowett translation will have to do. I have been planning this reading for a while, and it just so happens that the course of recent discussions here in the thread lead nicely into the themes of this reading. Best Wishes, Thales From Plato's Republic, as translated by Benjamin Jowett [socrates] And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: --Behold! human beings living in a underground cave, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the cave; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets. [Glaucon] I see. [socrates] And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent. [Glaucon] You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners. [socrates] Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave? [Glaucon] True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads? [socrates] And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows? [Glaucon] Yes, he said. [socrates] And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them? [Glaucon] Very true. [socrates] And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow? [Glaucon] No question, he replied. [socrates] To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images. [Glaucon] That is certain. [socrates] And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision, -what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, -will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him? [Glaucon] Far truer. [socrates] And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take and take in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him? [Glaucon] True, he now. [socrates] And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he 's forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities. [Glaucon] Not all in a moment, he said. [socrates] He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day? [Glaucon] Certainly. [socrates] Last of he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is. [Glaucon] Certainly. [socrates] He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold? [Glaucon] Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about him. [socrates] And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the cave and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them? [Glaucon] Certainly, he would. [socrates] And if they were in the habit of conferring honors among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before, and which followed after, and which were together; and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future, do you think that he would care for such honors and glories, or envy the possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer, Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner? [Glaucon] Yes, he said, I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner. [socrates] Imagine once more, I said, such an one coming suddenly out of the sun to be replaced in his old situation; would he not be certain to have his eyes full of darkness? [Glaucon] To be sure, he said. [socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death. [Glaucon] No question, he said. [socrates] This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed. [Glaucon] I agree, he said, as far as I am able to understand you. [socrates] Moreover, I said, you must not wonder that those who attain to this beatific vision are unwilling to descend to human affairs; for their souls are ever hastening into the upper world where they desire to dwell; which desire of theirs is very natural, if our allegory may be trusted. [Glaucon] Yes, very natural. [socrates] And is there anything surprising in one who passes from divine contemplations to the evil state of man, misbehaving himself in a ridiculous manner; if, while his eyes are blinking and before he has become accustomed to the surrounding darkness, he is compelled to fight in courts of law, or in other places, about the images or the shadows of images of justice, and is endeavoring to meet the conceptions of those who have never yet seen absolute justice? [Glaucon] Anything but surprising, he replied. [socrates] Any one who has common sense will remember that the bewilderments of the eyes are of two kinds, and arise from two causes, either from coming out of the light or from going into the light, which is true of the mind's eye, quite as much as of the bodily eye; and he who remembers this when he sees any one whose vision is perplexed and weak, will not be too ready to laugh; he will first ask whether that soul of man has come out of the brighter light, and is unable to see because unaccustomed to the dark, or having turned from darkness to the day is dazzled by excess of light. And he will count the one happy in his condition and state of being, and he will pity the other; or, if he have a mind to laugh at the soul which comes from below into the light, there will be more reason in this than in the laugh which greets him who returns from above out of the light into the cave. [Glaucon] That, he said, is a very just distinction. [socrates] But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must be wrong when they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which was not there before, like sight into blind eyes. [Glaucon] They undoubtedly say this, he replied. [socrates] Whereas, our argument shows that the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already; and that just as the eye was unable to turn from darkness to light without the whole body, so too the instrument of knowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be turned from the world of becoming into that of being, and learn by degrees to endure the sight of being, and of the brightest and best of being, or in other words, of the good. [Glaucon] Very true. [socrates] And must there not be some art which will effect conversion in the easiest and quickest manner; not implanting the faculty of sight, for that exists already, but has been turned in the wrong direction, and is looking away from the truth? [Glaucon] Yes, he said, such an art may be presumed. [socrates] And whereas the other so-called virtues of the soul seem to be akin to bodily qualities, for even when they are not originally innate they can be implanted later by habit and exercise, the of wisdom more than anything else contains a divine element which always remains, and by this conversion is rendered useful and profitable; or, on the other hand, hurtful and useless. Did you never observe the narrow intelligence flashing from the keen eye of a clever rogue --how eager he is, how clearly his paltry soul sees the way to his end; he is the reverse of blind, but his keen eyesight is forced into the service of evil, and he is mischievous in proportion to his cleverness. [Glaucon] Very true, he said. [socrates] But what if there had been a circumcision of such natures in the days of their youth; and they had been severed from those sensual pleasures, such as eating and drinking, which, like leaden weights, were attached to them at their birth, and which drag them down and turn the vision of their souls upon the things that are below --if, I say, they had been released from these impediments and turned in the opposite direction, the very same faculty in them would have seen the truth as keenly as they see what their eyes are turned to now. [Glaucon] Very likely. [socrates] Yes, I said; and there is another thing which is likely. or rather a necessary inference from what has preceded, that neither the uneducated and uninformed of the truth, nor yet those who never make an end of their education, will be able ministers of State; not the former, because they have no single aim of duty which is the rule of all their actions, private as well as public; nor the latter, because they will not act at all except upon compulsion, fancying that they are already dwelling apart in the islands of the blest. [Glaucon] Very true, he replied. [socrates] Then, I said, the business of us who are the founders of the State will be to compel the best minds to attain that knowledge which we have already shown to be the greatest of all-they must continue to ascend until they arrive at the good; but when they have ascended and seen enough we must not allow them to do as they do now. [Glaucon] What do you mean? [socrates] I mean that they remain in the upper world: but this must not be allowed; they must be made to descend again among the prisoners in the cave, and partake of their labors and honors, whether they are worth having or not. [Glaucon] But is not this unjust? he said; ought we to give them a worse life, when they might have a better? [socrates] You have again forgotten, my friend, I said, the intention of the legislator, who did not aim at making any one class in the State happy above the rest; the happiness was to be in the whole State, and he held the citizens together by persuasion and necessity, making them benefactors of the State, and therefore benefactors of one another; to this end he created them, not to please themselves, but to be his instruments in binding up the State. [Glaucon] True, he said, I had forgotten. [socrates] Observe, Glaucon, that there will be no injustice in compelling our philosophers to have a care and providence of others; we shall explain to them that in other States, men of their class are not obliged to share in the toils of politics: and this is reasonable, for they grow up at their own sweet will, and the government would rather not have them. Being self-taught, they cannot be expected to show any gratitude for a culture which they have never received. But we have brought you into the world to be rulers of the hive, kings of yourselves and of the other citizens, and have educated you far better and more perfectly than they have been educated, and you are better able to share in the double duty. Wherefore each of you, when his turn comes, must go down to the general underground abode, and get the habit of seeing in the dark. When you have acquired the habit, you will see ten thousand times better than the inhabitants of the cave, and you will know what the several images are, and what they represent, because you have seen the beautiful and just and good in their truth. And thus our State which is also yours will be a reality, and not a dream only, and will be administered in a spirit unlike that of other States, in which men fight with one another about shadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power, which in their eyes is a great good. Whereas the truth is that the State in which the rulers are most reluctant to govern is always the best and most quietly governed, and the State in which they are most eager, the worst. [Glaucon] Quite true, he replied. [socrates] And will our pupils, when they hear this, refuse to take their turn at the toils of State, when they are allowed to spend the greater part of their time with one another in the heavenly light? [Glaucon] Impossible, he answered; for they are just men, and the commands which we impose upon them are just; there can be no doubt that every one of them will take office as a stern necessity, and not after the fashion of our present rulers of State. [socrates] Yes, my friend, I said; and there lies the point. You must contrive for your future rulers another and a better life than that of a ruler, and then you may have a well-ordered State; for only in the State which offers this, will they rule who are truly rich, not in silver and gold, but in virtue and wisdom, which are the true blessings of life. Whereas if they go to the administration of public affairs, poor and hungering after the' own private advantage, thinking that hence they are to snatch the chief good, order there can never be; for they will be fighting about office, and the civil and domestic broils which thus arise will be the ruin of the rulers themselves and of the whole State. [Glaucon] Most true, he replied. [socrates] And the only life which looks down upon the life of political ambition is that of true philosophy. Do you know of any other? [Glaucon] Indeed, I do not, he said. [socrates] And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight. [Glaucon] No question. [socrates] Who then are those whom we shall compel to be guardians? Surely they will be the men who are wisest about affairs of State, and by whom the State is best administered, and who at the same time have other honors and another and a better life than that of politics? [Glaucon] They are the men, and I will choose them, he replied. [socrates] And now shall we consider in what way such guardians will be produced, and how they are to be brought from darkness to light, -- as some are said to have ascended from the world below to the gods? [Glaucon] By all means, he replied. [socrates] The process, I said, is not the turning over of an oyster-shell, but the turning round of a soul passing from a day which is little better than night to the true day of being, that is, the ascent from below, which we affirm to be true philosophy? [Glaucon] Quite so.