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I do not see the logic behind a test bar. Why would the smart money sell a lower prices if they could sell at higher prices. If the price gets marked down rapidly and the smart money does not sell, why does that automatically mean they wont sell when the price gets a little higher? A test bar on low volume that closes on its highs only shows selling is gone at the lower prices. and again, even if it were on high volume(that closed on highs) wouldn't it show there are buyers who came in and bought. Why would this test fail? It is showing support in the market. It would be the opposite of an upthrust bar imo. What is the opposite to an upthrust bar? When BBs fish for stops on the downside.

Well the more i hear talk about smart money ad trying to follow it the more I feel like people are trying to make something out of nothing. The only real thing that makes sense to me is that volume shows force required to move price. So logically, the more force, the more movement. When this is out of balance you can see something is not right(maybe smart money?? Who knows). In VSA they are SQUAT bars, narrow bars on high volume, usually in unseen high or low territory. VSA does not address(so far from what I have read) wide range bars on little volume. If a price move is extreme under low volume, its telling me no one is wanting to be on the other side, thus I can get an idea as to how the market is feeling. VSA talks about high volume/wide range bars as often being turning points. They could be yes, but I think it is better too look(under smaller time frame) at how the price is moving compared to the volume in real time. If for instance during a high volume/wide spread up bar, the price begins to rise slower and slower and the volume is relatively constant, it is telling me someone is stepping in front if this move to get out or go short. If I just saw the price rises and the volume rises I wouldn't have a clue as for what to look for. In my example I would be looking to go short as soon as I saw weakness. Upthrusts or tests can be useful, but to put them in a box per say like VSA is tough. I think big money can push a price over a SR line to hit some stops if they feel like the price is soon to reverse. I think that is something that has to be seen in real time though because you will usually see a large volume spike followed by a quick retrace. I believe in these situations the RR would seem favorable. Things like NO DEMAND bars or NO SUPPLY bars can be one in the same. If there is a NO DEMAND bar, it is an up bar that has less volume that the two previous bars. Well the fact that its an up bar tells me there is MORE DEMAND than supply for that time frame. That is a big thing I try to understand about VSA. Seems fishy to me, but I am trying to learn all I can about it because maybe I am not seeing or thinking about it the right way. I will check out Wyckoff. Thanks.

But what about manipulation. Things like tests and upthust. Do you agree that they give an idea as to what the BBs are doing?

Candle What if the close of the test bar is on its lows? Are tests that test for buying the same thing as upthrust?

I agree. Nothing is an ATM on its own. And if it were it soon wouldn't be. I really like the concepts to VSA and would like to use it to help me grasp the overall market conditions. Use it to help me find patters that I think are tradable. Just some things in VSA are not clicking and I do not know why it describes things the way it does. Again, if someone can help me with some of the questions in the first post I would really appreciate it.

Also, it appears that a lot of narrow range up bars can be considered either NO DEMAND or a SQUAT bar. unless the volume is slightly above normal, one of the two could be seen as true. Am I missing something here?

But if the BBs mark the price down rapidly to find sellers and the price then shoots back up and it closes on highs this would be a bullish sign to me, even if the volume is high. because you know a lot of that volume is DEMAND coming into the market. Why is this not the case? You said failed tests close from middle to highs of the bar. How is this the case because like I said before, it shows there is DEMAND in the market. If the test closed on bottom with low volume it would show to me there are is NO DEMAND or plenty of SUPPLY left in the market, thus resulting in a failed test. Thank you!

I understand it takes years to master, but you got to start somewhere, right?

Thanks Candle! Another question about the image you just posted. How you know that's a shake out and not a failed test for more selling? But if it were a test would it be considered a failed test since it closed on highs? It shows there is DEMAND in the market since it closed on its high. Why do tests have to be low volume?

I have read through about 100 pages of the ebook. And about 20 pages of the VSA Part I forum. Its much easier to get things cleared up as you are going. I am getting mixed ideas about, what I feel is a huge part of VSA. Getting the first part down pat makes it a lot easier to associate it with the next part. I thought asking others was part of the learning process. I guess I am not "worthy" enough yet. Just let the thread fall if you do not want to help me. I know it takes time to learn. If I don't put in the time I wont learn simple as that. Putting me down because I haven't spent as much time on VSA as some does nothing. So if someone can help me with some of the questions I had in the first post I would be very happy to hear it. Thanks.

Thanks Candle. A few questions. You say you do not like the the first NO SUPPLY bar because it closes up. What do you mean you do not like it? Are you say it is not giving a clear signal? Why can't the first NO SUPPLY bar be a test down? It looks like a successful test bar to me. If you did go long on the close of that bar would you probably get back on on the close of the NO DEMAND bar? About the bar you called an up thrust. Couldn't you call that a test bar as well? This bar is showing there is plenty of supply still in the market since it closed on its lows with high volume. If you did go long(I know its aggressive) on the first NO SUPPLY bar, you would surely get out at the close of this bar correct? It is giving a signal of supply still in the market. There seems like plenty of places to either go long or short. Personally what do you wait for in terms of entering or exiting a trade? Why do you look particularly within the WRB for signals? What makes it more prone to give "clear" signals? Thank you so much for your help.

Well could someone push me in the right direction about the specific questions I asked? It would really shape my understanding and I would be able to follow the book much better. I have started the ebook(its long though). Thank you for your help.

Candle, can you help me with something real quick. On the chart you posted between 11 and 1130, would the down WRB tell us anything about what the smart money is doing. I know the volume is telling us they are active, but are we looking for any particular move(up or down) after a WRB on ultra high volume closes near its lows. Or do we have to wait to for no supply or a test? Do tests have to follow no supply/demand? It looks like the 11:12 bar is a successful test showing little interest left in selling. but the bar two to the right of that one shows some high volume on a medium ranged bar closing on its lows. Is there conflicting signs all throughout here? Thank you for your help!

I have been reading about VSA for hours and hours over the past few days. Sometimes it appears like I got it then I get thrown something that doesn't quite gel with my thinking. Sometimes it appears the charts that get posted as examples perfect only in hindsight. Or at least from my thinking, which hopefully I get fixed. Anyways lets start from the beginning. The main thing in VSA is looking for large amount of volume in a "short" period of time. It is showing the pros are active in either buying or selling. I know the first item to look for when using VSA is a wide range bar on ultra high volume. I will ask some questions, but depending on the answer I will ask more questions, so to start: The questions pertain to this situation In a downtrend if you see a bullish WRB on ultra high volume that closes near its top, you are assuming the smart money is buying correct? Does it matter if it is a doji or solid bar? I know VSA is only concerned with where the bar closes, so I wouldn't think it should matter. If you are assuming smart money is buying are you only looking for no supply bars and tests to the downside? Do no supply bars HAVE to be down bars(i know they have to be low volume)? Do tests HAVE to close at the middle to top of the bar? If the test bar closes at the top of the bar, but has high volume VSA would state it is a failed test, but I do not understand why. It would appear plenty of buying in coming in for the bar to finish at the top of its range. When would be the best place to go long? On the close of the no supply bar or should you always wait for a test bar? Now assume in a downtrend you have a bearish WRB on ultra high volume that closes near its bottom. Does this assume smart money is selling? Say the bar closes about 1/3 off the bottom. Are we then assuming smart money is buying and now we are waiting for a no supply bar? What situation would tell us to go short after a bearish WRB in a down trend? I am guessing the bar would have to finish on its lows and we would then have to see a no demand bar. I am assuming the opposite is true for all cases in an uptrend. AIM and yahoo messenger is fsufootball42 if anyone wants to learn with me. Thank you in advance for all the help!