Soultrader

I was informed brokers like IB do not profit from the spread but just take commission instead. Perhaps IB traders can clarify.

What are Binary Options? "In finance, a binary option is a type of option where the payoff is either some fixed amount of some asset or nothing at all. The two main types of binary options are the cash-or-nothing binary option and the asset-or-nothing binary option. The cash-or-nothing binary option pays some fixed amount of cash if the option expires in-the-money while the asset-or-nothing pays the value of the underlying security. Thus, the options are binary in nature because there are only two possible outcomes. They are also called all-or-nothing options, digital options (more common in forex/interest rate markets), and Fixed Return Options (FROs) (on the American Stock Exchange). For example, a purchase is made of a binary cash-or-nothing call option on XYZ Corp's stock struck at $100 with a binary payoff of $1000. Then, if at the future maturity date, the stock is trading at or above $100, $1000 is received. If its stock is trading below $100, nothing is received." Definition taken from Wikipedia. Resources: CBOE Binary Options Introduction Page

Hi PeterFM, thank you for the suggestion. I like the idea and have added a sub forum under options laboratory titled "Binary Options". Thanks!

ISV stands for Independent Service Vendor. These are firms like TT, CQG, Pats, GL Trade that provide stand alone trading platforms that are not developed by the brokerage firm. These firms are more widely used amongst institutions as they have different needs that certain ISV's can provide. Some ISV's provide order types not supported by the exchange. For example, if exchange ABC does not support stops an ISV may allow it to be held on their server and when hit will send a market to the exchange.

Thank you all for your votes for the June POTM contest. I would like to congratulate DbPhoenix for winning the POTM June contest for his post here. Thanks again and look forward to POTM July contest

Which post should win this monthly nomination contest? Choose from the topics (posts/threads) listed throughout the forum(s), and vote for your favorite post now. What is Topic Of The Month? Topic of the Month is a contest that select posts on which we would like the community to commit to as a group and then comment/discuss on them during the course of the selected week/Fortnight/month. Any listed topic (thread) is eligible for the Topic of the Month selection. What determines a Topic Of The Month? Topic Of The Month is based on a simple nomination system. Throughout the selected forums, members with adequate permissions can nominate their favorite topic by clicking on the award nomination button below the post. The topics with the most nominations during the course of the week/month are displayed on this thread using the poll feature. At the end of the month, the first three topics with the most nominations are the award winners of the contest. Topic of the Month Winners Every month, a $20 Amazon Gift Certificate is awarded to the Topic of the Month winner. A pm will be sent out to confirm your email in order to receive the gift certificate.

I believe Tokyo Stock Exchange allows you to modify orders from multiple ISV vendors. So if you had a trade on using for example, TT you can cancel or close this out using another ISV platform connected to TSE.

Hi all, I will be in the midst of moving starting this Friday (3rd) and may not be able to respond in a timely manner. I am expected to lose internet connection until mid-late next week but will check in from time to time at a internet cafe or so. Please bear with me as I made this transition. Thank you.

Would like to dedicate this thread to crisis control measures that traders take in case of emergencies. This includes exchange technical issues, broker issues, trade problems, etc... What contracts or markets can you hedge against? What sort of backup plans do you have? Some thoughts; 1. Always have more than one brokerage account. 2. Always have a direct number to your broker. I maintain a good relationship with my broker so if anything goes wrong I can always reach him and manage my position. In fact, brokers that call you out of concern are worth keeping. 3. Have more than one internet connection. Also do not use a wireless connection. 4. Use at least 2 PC's. I personally use one for charts and one for order execution but with software installed on both pc's. 5. Have an extra mouse and keyboard ready. Do not use wireless battery types. 6. Know which market to hedge against in case of an emergency; ex: YM and ES, Nikkei and TOPIX, Nikkei and JGB, Futures and options, etc... 7. Do not be cheap when buying a pc. Trading platforms can be quite cpu intensive and the last thing you want is your pc to freeze up in a fast market. 8. Have a drawdown limit set by your broker within their risk control system. I do this primarily to control my own destructive behavior such as revenge trading, over trading, etc.. It also works to protect yourself from any signficant losses. 9. Lastly, deal with a reputable broker. I have seen far too many fraudelent businesses especially here in Japan where commodities are an unregulated market.

hahaha nice one Trader333

The tapatalk team has just announced the release of their iPhone app in iTunes. It took several months for Apple to approve, hence the delay. We do not officially support this application as it was not developed by us. Tapatalk are the creators of this app and allows users to visit a collection of forums within the Tapatalk network. I believe they are currently charging $2.99 for this application. There are good news and bad news. Good News: TradersLaboratory.com is listed under category "Business". Here are some snapshots: Bad News: This release is for U.S. store ONLY. Below is the reason from the Tapatalk group... "Why Tapatalk iPhone is released only for U.S. store??? The Tapatalk iPhone app currently available on the app store is version 1.1 and is available to U.S app store only. The reason we limit it to U.S. only is due to a show-stopper bug that can crash the app when the iPhone regional setting is set to anything outside United States (e.g. Canada, Sweden, Japan, etc). While we have immediately fixed this issue but it takes time for Apple to review the change. We have submitted a replacement app to Apple and I assure all of you that the next release will be available to rest of the world. We will send you another notification as soon as the next release is available." DOWNLOAD FROM iTUNES HERE

Hi Hal, I just enabled it for all usergroups. The limit is now 4800 x 4800 pixels and 1000kb in size. This is rather large and do not want to expand it further. Let me know if it works for you. Thanks.

Hi Hal, Thanks for clarifying the issue. I have made some adjustments within the system. Can you please try again? If all works well I will enable this for the rest of the members. Thanks.

Hi Hal, Did some research but unable to understand the problem fully. Which link are you using to upload this picture? Its probably just a matter of settings but with so many options its a bit of an issue locating it. Thanks

Welcome to the Volume Spread Analysis forum! This forum is dedicated to discussing the methodology of volume spread analysis. In order to keep this forum clean from solicitation, please do not post discussions regarding VSA related commercial vendors. Discussions related to any commercial vendor product or website should be placed in the Review Section. In order to differentiate this section with other areas of the website, please keep this forum strictly VSA. Any reference to other methodology should be posted in the appropriate forums such as Technical Analysis, Wyckoff Forum, Market Profile, or The Candlestick Corner. If you have any concerns regarding the format of the VSA forum, please post your inquiries in the Support Center. Thank you.

Hi Monad, Ive moved this over to the support forum as it is more appropriate here. We are cleaning up the VSA forums at the moment to remove references to TG and to keep it strictly to the VSA methodology only. Your concern is important to me and I realize the VSA forum has turned out into somewhat of a commercialized forum for TG. As a result, we have deleted some threads and will move/edit threads referenced to TG accordingly. Our aim is to keep this forum completely on VSA methodology... if it fails to do we are planning to close the forum altogether.

This is a continuation of the VSA Officially Summary Part . Many of the VSA terms are presented in Part 1. Part 2 will attempt to organize charts as well as insights from the main [VSA] Volume Spread Analysis Part II thread. Please do not use this thread to post any comments. Please post all suggestions, questions, and feedbacks in the original thread located here. If you find I have missed a post that should be included in this summary, please do not hesitate to contact me directly. Enjoy! (The summary will be updated gradually so please bear with me.) [multipage=VSA Charts]Posted by Sledge in this post . Interesting early morning action in the Euro. Check out the chart below. First we see a dark WRB followed by a GAP in price. Note the first candle with a double arrow. Notice that the volume is ultra high and the bar closes lower than the previous bar and off of its low. VSA teaches that this is a bar that may have buying within it. Now the next bar is key. It turns out to be a WRB, but the fact that the bar is up means the prior bar MUST of had some buying contained within it. Now we move to the white WRB itself. Note that this bar creates a zone or range where we get a change in the supply/demand dynamic. We also know that the market does not like wide spread up bars on ultra high volume because of the possibility of hidden selling. In this case, however, the volume actually fell from the previous bar and is not ultra high. We move to the next candle with a double arrow below. This is a doji that closes equal to the previous bar and in the upper portion of its range. Volume on this bar is Ultra high. There is SUPPLY in the market at this stage. Price moves down from here. Next candle, closes in the upper portion of its range and higher than its open. Volume again is extreme. Here we have Demand showing itself. In other words, Demand is swamping Supply on this bar. SOMETHING HAS CHANGED. Notice that the next bar closes in its middle, has an equal close and volume drops off. The Last bar closes on its high on volume that is less than the previous two bars. Although it does not make a lower low, this is a 'test' bar. The Smart Money is testing for supply and finds none. Now price is poised to go up and fill that gap. Posted by Sledge in this post here. Not all WRBs are created equal. While there may be many factors in what constitutes a significant WRB, the three main are: * Size in relation to other WRBs * Amount of volume * If the WRB is the result of some news related event NihabaAshi is the true WRB expert and may be able to enlighten us as to some of the more reasons that determine a WRB's significant. As I know you are looking at VSA, don't let what I just said about WRBs confuse you. There are three factors that constitute significant bars in VSA as well: * Size in relation to other wide spread bars * Amount of volume * If the wide spread bar is the result of some news related event Now in the chart below we see numerous WRBs or wide to Ultra wide spread bars. However, they are all not equal. Let's just focus on the very first one on the left hand side of the chart. We see an Ultra Wide Spread bar with Ultra High Volume that closes up from the previous bar. VSA teaches us that markets do not like Ultra Wide Spread or Wide Spread bars on high or Ultra high volume. Because they could hide selling (supply) within them. Although some times they are indeed strength. Which by the way, much time is spent on in the bootcamp. Because many people after hearing weakness (supply) comes in on up bars automatically assume all up bars are weak. We know this bar had some selling (supply) once we see that the next bar is down. If all that volume was buying (demand) then the next bar could not be down. What we often see next, if the market is strong, is either a No Supply or Test for supply bar. Here we see a test. This is a low volume test. Note that volume is less than the previous two bars. Note that the test makes a lower low than the previous bar and closes on its high. It hard for me to separate some things, so I must point out that this test bar is in body of the WRB. But from a pure VSA point, note that the test is within the range of the Ultra Wide Spread bar. SIMPLY, A LOW VOLUME SIGNAL WITHIN THE RANGE OF A PRVIOUSLY HIGH VOLUME BAR. Many concepts in VSA are logical. Here we see some supply enter the market. The next thing we see is a test of supply. The Professional want to take prices up, but are making sure that the supply is out of the market. If there were sellers underneath, then there would be more volume. And if a large amount of supply had entered (more than the demand present) then price would go down on more volume. The key(s) here are that the 'test' comes immediately after we see supply enter the market showing us market strength. Or, simply put, location and background information. An aggressive trader might enter once the test is "proven" on the next bar that closes higher than the close of the test. Shown here. The reason for the question mark is that not everyone would enter at this point. Some use multiple timeframes, some use price action patterns, and some even use indicators ( ). To be sure, the market did indeed move up and a quick profit could have been made. In fact, one could still be long as of this pic and in profit using only one timeframe and that repeatable and reliable pattern. Once you witness Ultra Wide or Wide Spread bars on High or Ultra High Volume, you want to then start looking for bars with low volume. This is where you find no supply, no demand, and some test bars. Sometimes there will be high volume tests or Upthrusts on high volume. An Upthrust is kind of like a high volume test but showing weakness rather than strength. That is, a high volume test will close on or near its high and an Upthrust closes on or near its low. Ideally a high volume test will make a lower low while the Upthrust will make a higher high. There is a lot more here, but it is enough to say that every No Supply or No Selling Pressure sign in this pic is within the range of a significant Wide or Ultra Wide Spread bar. More precisely, within the body of a significant WRB. Posted by Sledge here. Nice Bullish White Hammer pattern. Note that the white hammer line is inside the range of the Ultra Wide Spread Ultra High Volume candle. When we take a look at the WRB, we see a down candle that has an ultra wide spread and closes on its low. There would appear to be heavy selling pressure in this bar. BUT THE NEXT BAR IS UP. If that bar was true selling, then the next bar would not be up. In fact, if one looks at what price did after that bar it moved up. Clearly, the Professional demand created an upward drift in price. Simply, that WRB must of been a shift/change in the Supply/Demand dynamics of the market. Now note the large dark Candle just prior to the shaded area. This candle closes on its low , closes lower than the previous bar and has volume less than the previous two bars. This is No Selling pressure. The close on the low fools the retail trader into seeing weakness. The lack of volume, however, is the real clue. Price does move down a bit and create the bullish hammer pattern. Note that the hammer line itself is a VSA shakeout/test bar. This is the "ideal" set-up. We see strength come in using our primary methods (VSA and WRB) and then we get a buy signal via our secondary method (Japanese candlestick patterns). Posted by Sledge here. What did they know, and when did they know it? OR the importance of Volume. Here is a chart of some of today's price action in the Euro. What is telling here is the actions of Professional Money PRIOR to the news release. We can see when they begin to position themselves and on what side through the use of VSA. Almost an hour beforehand, we see an Ultra Wide Spread Bar with Ultra High Volume, that closes down from the previous bar and closes in the middle of its range. This bar represents a transfer of ownership. That is, the Professionals are buying from the retail traders. Why would they be buying prior to a usually volatile news release ? Seems like a risky thing to do. Could they already have an idea of what it will say? Now VSA tells us that if this is the case, we would expect that if they are BUYING now, they will be SELLING into the release itself for profit taking. Especially If the news spurs the retail traders into entering the market on the long side. However, if the retail trader is believes the news to be bearish, they (Smart Money) would be BUYING more. That is, if the retail traders are getting short, who are they selling to? So we should see both Professional selling and buying. We don't expect then to get net short in other words. Check out the large dark hammer as the news is released. There was some profit taking on that bar. But the bar has ultra High volume, closes on its low with the next bar up. Some buying must of taken place as well. More exactly, they took profits and then began buying as the retail traders (weak hands) rushed in on the short side. We always want to consider "who is on the other side" with VSA. Usually, its the Smart Money and that is not good. I should say, without VSA it's usually the Smart Money and that is not good. Note that price did begin to fall for a few bars. But then we get a dark hammer line. The Long Shadow of the hammer line happens, not so coincidently, to trade into the region of the First candle mentioned where the transfer of ownership begun. The Smart Money is becoming aggressive on the demand side. They are locking in the weak holders (retail shorts) as they know price is going HIGER NOT LOWER. The down move and the dark hammer itself may have even pushed some weak longs out. If you look at a chart beyond the time shown here, you will see the strong up move that ensues. 1. The Smart Money began getting long (long) prior to the News. 2. Some used the event to take a bit of profit. 3. Most got even more long (demand). 4. Once the weak holders where short, price found support in a such a way as to knock out weak longs and lock in weak shorts. 5. what can not be seen in this picture, is a large inverted white hammer that represents the last effort for the weak shorts to get out at break even if the bought on the news release itself. When we use VSA we get a 3 dimensional picture: volume, range and price. Ignoring one of them (like volume or keeping volume constant) is like cutting off one leg of a tripod............... Posted by Sledge here. If there has been a theme to my posts recently, it is summed up in the word: CONTEXT. I am learning to use candlestick patterns as a secondary method. By that I mean, entry set-up signals. VSA and WRB & Long Shadow analysis are the primary methods and are used to understand the contextual backdrop thru which a candlestick pattern trade can be taken. Take a look at the chart below. We see a WRB on Ultra High Volume. VSA tells us that markets do not like Wide Spread up bars on Ultra High Volume. Because there could be hidden selling in the bar. Now check out the very next bar. This bar has almost as much volume as the WRB, in fact it has 3 ticks less. BUT the range is much more narrow and the bar closes in the middle of its range. This is a transfer of ownership bar. The Smart Money is dumping supply into the market. As retail traders rush in to get long, the Smart Money is all too happy to sell to them. Like I said, we need to always be aware of who is on the other side of the trade. While this bar is up, on high volume it is not "up volume". Most volume indicators and volume analysis would assume it is positive. But we know better than that. A few bars later, we see a narrow bar that close up from the previous bar and closes in the upper portion of its range, but on volume less than the previous two bars. This is No Demand. Professionals are not interested in higher prices at this time. At this point we have context. Supply has entered the market. Note that price overall begins to move sideways. There are some who would go short after the No Demand with the background selling that can be seen. This is a personal choice. For me, all that the context says is, "now is not the time to be going long". I need to see some candle pattern, preferably within the range of the WRB, to get me short. (if you look at a chart from today, you will see that price plummeted after the jobs report). But my point is this, the context, or story, at this time says more about NOT going long than simply get short. A Tradeguider "sign of weakness" might appear on the transfer of ownership bar. It would therefore look like the top was called and thus possibly sold. This is the error that most indicator only traders who look at TG make. Posted by Sledge here. BEFORE & AFTER: I have attached two charts. The first is the before and the second is the after. Let's look at the before. For me the key concept comes thru at least a basic understanding of WRBs. Of course, VSA doesn't look at the open, but I think much is missed if you don't. More over, I think that if VSA did, they would come to the same conclusion. And in fact, they DO come to the same conclusion partially when dealing with wide spread bars (more on this later). The first bar with the double arrow is a wide spread bar that closes in the middle on ultra high volume. Supply enters the market on this bar. Not a place to go short. The reason: the reason is explained in the next highlighted bars. The next bar we have is a Long Shadow and in VSA terms, it is Ultra Wide Spread bar on high volume, that closes lower than the previous bar, and closes in the upper portion of the range. DEMAND entered the market on this bar. Now, here is where I depart from VSA. We now have a Long Shadow that creates a support/resistance zone. We also see that this Long Shadow tells us that demand overcame supply on the lower portion of the bar. Not to mention, this bar is a Doji (close=open). VSA does not care that it is a doji, yet the conclusion that something is changing in the supply/demand dynamic is the same-Buyers came in on this bar. Still not the bar to get into the market on. The next key bar is a WRB. WRBs also tell us of shifts or changes in supply and demand. Then we get a No Demand bar. Again not a bar to enter on. What we need to see is something happen within the RANGE of the WRB AND OR THE RANGE OF THE SHADOW OF THE LONG SHADOW BAR. Ideally, the market will move back down and give us a No Supply or Test within these ranges. Then we should be looking to go long. And that concept is what Todd does not say much about. Clearly, he would not talk about within the context of the WRB because he does not look at the open, but he can talk about the overall range of the Ultra Wide Spread bar. In other words, even though he would not know it is a Long Shadow, he would recognize the bar as Ultra Wide Spread and thus should be used as a matrix to measure what comes. The next chart is the AFTER. We do indeed get the No Supply sign in the range of the WRB and the Long Shadow candle. Once we have the confirmation bar up, the next bar, we get long at the close of that bar/open of the next bar. Note that there are two gaps and gaps are usually filled so we need to keep that in mind. Posted by Sledge here. After the up move in price what happens next? There is on thing we want to keep in mind; we had a couple of Gaps on the way up. Gaps are usually filled. They can at times, however, act as support and resistance areas...... Let's look at the what happens when a test fails. The first thing you will notice is a WRB. Not important to VSA but oh so telling to the rest of us. The best places to see tests, upthrusts, and no supply/no demand bars are within the body of a WRB or shadow of a Long Shadow candle. We have our WRB in place. This creates a natural support/resistance zone. Next we see a narrow bar that closes near its high, closes equal to the previous bar, and has Ultra High volume. THIS IS A HIGH VOLUME TEST. Smart money is looking for sellers and is finding some. While it is true that sometimes the market goes up on high test, it usually does not go up far and then comes back down to re-test the area. As always the next 1 or 2 bars need to be considered. To actually confirm the test we need to see one of the next 2 bars close Higher than the close of the test. Otherwise, we have a failed test. Notice what happens here. The next bar is down and then the bar after that is an up bar but closes equal to the close of the test bar. Now, look at the next bar. We have an up bar that closes in the middle to slightly up on relatively high volume. It is not as high as the test, but it is still high. Up close (from previous bar), on high volume closing near the middle: This is supply entering the market. At this point, we have a FAILED test on high volume and more supply showing up. The very next bar closes on the high with volume less than the previous two bars and closes higher than the previous bar. This is no buying pressure. As it would happen, the high of this bar is equal to the close of the WRB. TG WONT TELL YOU THIS. Then we get the next bar down. From a VSA point of view, now is the time to go short. * the test of supply has failed. * New supply entered. * No buying pressure. couple that with the fact that there are gaps below and all this is happening at the low of the S/R zone of a WRB. Now let's take a look at a test that does not fail. I would first point out that from a time of day perspective, this is not an ideal time to be entering a trade. It all starts with a WRB. We have an Ultra Wide Spread bar on Ultra High Volume that closes on the low. But the next bar is up. If this bar is up then there must of been some buying in the previous Ultra Wide Spread bar. WRB analysis tells us that changes and shifts in supply/demand occur in WRBs. More reasons to think something is indeed going on. 3 candles later, we see a narrow range candle that closes on its high, makes a lower low and has volume less than the previous two bars. THIS IS A TEST. Technically a possible test, as we do not have a confirmation bar yet. Confirmation comes 2 bars later when we see an up bar that closes higher than the close of the test bar. First possible entry point, with no regard to time of day. If you missed that point there is another. We get a bar that closes on its low, has a narrow range, has volume less than the previous two bars, with the next bar up. THIS IS NO SELLING PRESSURE/NO SUPPLY. What is nice about this bar is the volume. While the test volume was lower than the previous two bars, it was not as low as the volume on this bar. More evidence of the lack of sellers underneath. Also note that we are within the range of the WRB as on this bar. So we have a second chance entry which may in fact be the most ideal entry of all for some (leaving time of day out of the equation). Back to the test candle. Some may note a hammer line that appears to traverse into a bullish white hammer pattern. It does not. But if you had mistaken it as such, here too, time of day should have kept you out. Posted by Sledge here. One thing that I am very struck with is the overlap one finds in " things that are true" across various methods. Take for example the chart below. Notice that we have a valid High Close Doji pattern. This pattern appears within the body of the WRB and the following Ultra Wide Spread bar with Ultra High volume. Take a look at the test bar. VSA tells us that a test bar is when Professional Money "mark" prices down to see if there are is any supply (sellers). VSA, however, does not look at the open of the bar. But look at what we see if we do. First, we see that this bar is a doji. In candlestick terms this bar represents indecision. More over, the close on the top means price was rejected as it moved down. This is not unlike what VSA tells us. When we look at the entire bar, what must be the way the bar played out? The bar opened up, went down and the price came up to close right where it opened. Clearly, we can see that Professional Money "marked-down" the price only to take it back up again. In this case, we have a "perfect" example of the true intentions of the Smart Money. If the open had been lower on the bar, we would of course still have a test, but the picture would be different. For example, if the open was at the low of the bar, we would still have a test, but we would not get a sense of the "mark-down". Note that the other labeled test candle opens in the middle and closes on its high. We do see the action (mark down-price rejection) here as well. To be clear, tests come in various forms and the key is the volume and the close. But some tests are more reliable than others. Volume plays a role here but so does the open. Tests that are also dojis tend to be the optimal type of tests. To those that use candles, this makes sense. Hammers with long shadows also make ideal test bars. Two methods reaching like conclusions. It should be pointed out that a test bar needs confirmation. Ideally that confirmation comes on the next bar with a close higher than the close of the close of the test bar. If that confirmation bar closes higher than the high of the test bar and it (the test bar) is a doji, well, now we have something.............. Posted by speres here. Hello people, my first post here. Been practising VSA for quite a while now. I actually trade supp, res, this does help....... heres my take on yesterdays and current GBP/gpy action vsa only. A reversal B wide spread up with a bit of a top tail, high volume, weakness coming in. followed by another high vol wide spread up. Pros using this distribute. C hidden upthrust. You really don't want to be long now. D no demand. followed by down bar confirmation E price attempts a rally but is pushed down more downside to come probably. Posted by habi here. Let's have a look at a 5 min char and focus on the high volume bars. At point 1, we had a up bar with ultra high volume followed by a shooting star with even higher volume, a clear sign of weakness. I often observed, that prices goes above the first sign of weakness, but then gives you a good short entry. Contrary at point 2. We had a long down bar on ultra high volume, closing on its low, followed by an up bar with about the same volume and a long lower shadow. A trade below this bar with the additional gap support was a good long opportunity. Posted by Sledge here. Originally, I was going to post this pic in the WRB thread and make the following point. Not all WRBs are created equal. While there may be many factors in what constitutes a significant WRB, the three main are: * Size in relation to other WRBs * Amount of volume * If the WRB is the result of some news related event NihabaAshi is the true WRB expert and may be able to enlighten us as to some of the more reasons that determine a WRB's significant. As I know you are looking at VSA, don't let what I just said about WRBs confuse you. There are three factors that constitute significant bars in VSA as well: * Size in relation to other wide spread bars * Amount of volume * If the wide spread bar is the result of some news related event Now in the chart below we see numerous WRBs or wide to Ultra wide spread bars. However, they are all not equal. Let's just focus on the very first one on the left hand side of the chart. We see an Ultra Wide Spread bar with Ultra High Volume that closes up from the previous bar. VSA teaches us that markets do not like Ultra Wide Spread or Wide Spread bars on high or Ultra high volume. Because they could hide selling (supply) within them. Although some times they are indeed strength. Which by the way, much time is spent on in the bootcamp. Because many people after hearing weakness (supply) comes in on up bars automatically assume all up bars are weak. We know this bar had some selling (supply) once we see that the next bar is down. If all that volume was buying (demand) then the next bar could not be down. What we often see next, if the market is strong, is either a No Supply or Test for supply bar. Here we see a test. This is a low volume test. Note that volume is less than the previous two bars. Note that the test makes a lower low than the previous bar and closes on its high. It hard for me to separate some things, so I must point out that this test bar is in body of the WRB. But from a pure VSA point, note that the test is within the range of the Ultra Wide Spread bar. SIMPLY, A LOW VOLUME SIGNAL WITHIN THE RANGE OF A PRVIOUSLY HIGH VOLUME BAR. Many concepts in VSA are logical. Here we see some supply enter the market. The next thing we see is a test of supply. The Professional want to take prices up, but are making sure that the supply is out of the market. If there were sellers underneath, then there would be more volume. And if a large amount of supply had entered (more than the demand present) then price would go down on more volume. The key(s) here are that the 'test' comes immediately after we see supply enter the market showing us market strength. Or, simply put, location and background information. An aggressive trader might enter once the test is "proven" on the next bar that closes higher than the close of the test. Shown here. The reason for the question mark is that not everyone would enter at this point. Some use multiple timeframes, some use price action patterns, and some even use indicators ( ). To be sure, the market did indeed move up and a quick profit could have been made. In fact, one could still be long as of this pic and in profit using only one timeframe and that repeatable and reliable pattern. Once you witness Ultra Wide or Wide Spread bars on High or Ultra High Volume, you want to then start looking for bars with low volume. This is where you find no supply, no demand, and some test bars. Sometimes there will be high volume tests or Upthrusts on high volume. An Upthrust is kind of like a high volume test but showing weakness rather than strength. That is, a high volume test will close on or near its high and an Upthrust closes on or near its low. Ideally a high volume test will make a lower low while the Upthrust will make a higher high. There is a lot more here, but it is enough to say that every No Supply or No Selling Pressure sign in this pic is within the range of a significant Wide or Ultra Wide Spread bar. More precisely, within the body of a significant WRB. Posted by DbPhoenix here. Something similar happened today, Unicorn, again due to news. This time, however, you wouldn't have got much out of it unless you'd done your pre-market homework re support and resistance. Note that the selling climax does not exactly jump out at you. If you didn't have support drawn at 1765, you might not even notice it. But there or nearby is the place to enter, if you're going to enter at all. Posted by Sledge here. Ok, here is the same day, on a 4 hr chart- I see coming into the upthrust: 1. A Wide Spread Bar up on extremely high volume 2. Some ok follow-through on the next bar but with significantly lower volume 3. A down bar with even less volume 4. An up bar still on very low volume 5. The upthrust Maybe this chart will shed some more light possibly? [multipage=Wide Range Bars] Posted by habi here. VSA teaches, that some selling could be in wide spread bars with ultra high volume. As you say, it's important, where the WRB occur in the trend. So it would be interesting, what we have on the left sied of the first WRB. In addition, we should make a different between a WRB, which includes just the range between open and close and a wide spread bar, which is measured from low to high. A bar closing on its high as a single bar is not bearish, even if some hidden selling could be within them. But it means, that the sellers was not able, to push down prices. In your chart, the first WRB is a bullish candle as long as we don't have a close below it. In my opinion, the most important bars are those, with high volume. Then we have to find out, what this high volume means. In your example, we have a WRB on very high volume, closing on its high and higher than the three previous bars. Three bars after your long sign, we see a shooting star with high volume an a long upper shadow. This is a sign of weakness. Even if a second WRB is forming, we have weaknes above the shooting star. After the no demand bar, I see already a WRB down and a possible short against it. The next WRB down has ultra high volume, but closed not on the low which means, that some strenght came in. Since we are on the support from the first WRB, why not a long trade against the no supply bar? Posted by habi here. Some WRB's and how they worked as support/resistance in the ES 3 min chart. but it was not always easy to find a setup within the WRB zone. Today, strenght came in on down bars before closing the up gap. The higher volume spike in the middle lead to some more points down in an uptrend. The last two very high bars where probably created by closing day trade positions. We have to be careful, because we have some weakness in the 15 min chart. Posted by speres here. Great example here yesterday of WRB pushing through resistance gbp/jpy. Posted by DbPhoenix here. If you consider the waves of buying and selling pressure within the bar interval you've chosen rather than focus on the bars themselves, you'll see that a wave that attempts to make a higher high is of greater importance to buyers and sellers than one which is tucked inside a previous bar. Plus it's more likely that the second ND situation in your chart will be noticed by more traders since the intermediating bars may not be visible with a longer bar interval but the swing points will. What is more important in all of this is the lower high at R (assuming that the R is legitimate). As for volume and WRBs, the two need have nothing to do with each other, i.e., one can have a WRB resulting from a lot of buying pressure and very little selling pressure, or vice-versa, which graphically would show as a WRB with "low volume". [multipage=VSA Quiz]Posted by Sledge here. Ok Pop-Quiz for the Pro's and Learning time for the noobs or anyone in between. Can anyone Define marked bars 1 through 7. All the info needed (Volume) is below. The Admins can grade the papers when all have finished! 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. Posted by heretodaygone... here. Shall we play a game? Here's a daily chart of citi ©, with what appears to be a successful test of the January lows, or not depending on timeframe and trading plan. A couple of questions : - Is this a lower volume test of supply? - Is this a long signal for you? - if this is a long signal for you, are you calling this a bottom or just looking for a swing? (correction, are you anticipating a bottom? ) - If price rises, does that automatically mean that demand is present or could it possibly be short covering? - How do you distingush between short covering and new initiative demand? -Will wait for a higher low to decide? - Looking for and upthrust and or a no demand bar to short? DbPhoenix answer posted here. More than a couple 1. It's only marginally lower, but it's possible. If it's under accumulation, there will likely be many of these. 2. No. 3. See 2. 4. Depends on whether or not the advance is sustained. If it isn't, it's more likely short-covering. 5. See 4. 6. To decide what? 7. If I were interested in trading this, I'd wait to see where the first rally takes it and whether or not that might offer potential R. The easy money has likely been made here. [multipage=VSA Insights] Posted by Tasuki here. I've been thinking about two of the major threads on Traders Lab---VSA and MP, and it occurs to me that they rely on contradictory principles. If you believe VSA, the market is manipulated by the "professionals", "specialists", the "big money." Several contributors to the VSA thread have even opined that, if you get right down to it, this manipulation means that the markets are not a true auction, because it s rigged. Some voices, such as Richard Ney, Joel Pozen and others, are more strident in their opinions than others, but the fundamental philosophy of VSA is that the big players drag the price up and down to suit their needs. This philosophy is diametrically opposed to the philosophy of Market Profile, whose principles rely on the notion of a fair, two-sided auctioning process. If that process is not fair, if the auction is rigged, then Market Profile strategies would not work. The whole notion of "value" would be a sham if it were rigged by professionals who would be manipulating value to suit their interests. Let's take a single example to illustrate the two differeing approaches to the market. In a recent video with Joel Pozen, he showed a downtrend with a slight retracement in the middle. In other words,the market went down, then rallied slightly, then went down again. Joel insisted that the slight uptrend was created, manufactured, by the specialists in order to fool the masses into going long, so that the specialists could take out even more people's stops and create another, deeper downtrend. Frankly, I found this conspiracy theory too damn far-fetched for my liking. so I was delighted when I read Dalton's explanation of the same phenomenon (Markets in Profile, p. 155). He simply said that the slight uptrend was caused by "weak sellers" who covered their positions after they had realized a small profit from the initial downtrend. Personally, I find this explanation far more satisfying, not to mention plausible. In short, the more I study Market Profile, and the mechanisms of the auction process, the less need I feel to explain market moves with conspiracy theories involving super-rich, super-intelligent professionals or specialists. Tom Willaims and Richard Ney and Joel Pozen notwithstanding, I doubt that the folks who manage millions or billions are any smarter than we are. True, there certainly are very rich market players, but Willams and company lump these folks all into one camp and call them "professionals". The fact of the matter is, they do NOT act as one block. The truth is, these guys hate each others guts and are just as much interested in cutting each others throats as they are in screwing the public. This notion that the professionals are taking the market up or down or sideways supposes that these folks all work together. Sure, within one brokerage or hedge fund, I'm sure their traders all work together, but the idea that Goldman and Merrill and Blackstone and whomever else are all working together to move the market is a fantasy conjured up by paranoid conspiracy theorists. The fact is, the auction process has far more logical explanations for the market's moves. Reply by DbPheonix posted here. You make good points, Tasuki, though whether or not one finds the two approaches to be incompatible depends on how much attention he pays to signal and how much to noise. Both VSA and MP have their roots in the same place, but the farther out one goes on the individual branches, the more differences one finds in jargon and schematics. But do any of those differences matter to one's trading? Is it even necessary to pay any attention to them? If one works his way back to the roots, he can employ both with no trouble at all. As far as the "smart money" business goes, I prefer to think of it as "big", since it rarely behaves in any fashion that I'd call "smart". And while price can make substantial moves with little or no professional involvement whatsoever, it just doesn't pay to stand in front of the stampede when that money does enter the market. Personally, I couldn't care less who's buying or selling. I'm only interested in what's going on with price. Makes life and the decision-making process much easier. Reply by CandleWhisperer posted here. Actually VSA states that the Big Boys (BBs) are not all working in concert. VSA also states that not all "smart money players" are in the know. Tom would say that some of those Mutual fund managers with their MACDs and moving average crosses are no better than the herd; a term which is usually associated with small retail traders. As far as the auction process goes, there may be some truth in what you say. While Todd Krueger uses market profile along with VSA, it does seem that there is a dichotomy between market manipulation and fair auction market theory. Yet the propensity of value area lines to act as support or resistance is evidence of sameness or at least a symbiotic relationship. Regardless, the truth lies in price action. Price does not lie. Posted by Mister Ed here. Hi Taz, nice hand grenade, thanks for chucking it in. I saw your post a few hours ago, and have been thinking about it since. Sad, I know, but true. I am going to go with the 'muddle through' option. Price movement is a result of manipulation, sometimes, AND price movement is a result of an auction process, sometimes. The two co-exist, sometimes one is dominant, sometimes another. I will let the fundamentalists (no, not balance sheet/NFP/interest rate type fundamentalists, I mean those who set themselves up in either the MP or the VSA camp) slug it out, I will muddle through. What does muddle through mean? Hmmm, this bit of MP seems to work quite well, I will use it. Hmmm, this bit of VSA seems to work quite well, I will use it. Is this price move, here, now, a result of manipulation? Or is this price move, here, now, a result of the auction process? Ask me later, after I have closed the trade. Right NOW I am occupied with looking at the test and the response. Let me elaborate ... Price moves up, breaks through resistance (maybe a double top). This is the test. Then the price stalls, stops going up, and the volume has dropped. This is the response. OK, so here we are. Why are we here, manipulation or auction? I don't care. What's more important to me is how we got here and then making a judgment on where we are going from here. Up or down? Do the assessment, make the judgment, buy or sell. Now manage the trade until it is closed. I use Wyckoff analysis. The way I use it is to use whatever tool or technique that can tell me about supply & demand, cause & effect, effort & result, and position. I use VSA techniques a lot. I am trying to use MP techniques more as well. Are the philosophies behind each contradictory? Maybe to the fundamentalists (picture white-bearded VSA adherents at the entrance to one cave and white-bearded MP adherents at the entrance to another, hurling invective at each other) they are, to me they can peacefully and profitably co-exist So, is the market manipulated or is it an auction? Yes. Posted by DbPheonix here. Unfortunately, static charts are not dynamic, yet these are the kinds of charts that practically everybody works with, especially when they're trying to explain something to somebody, whether in an article or a post or a book, so one is in the position of explaining the nature and character of movement using something that doesn't move. Hence the fallback position: patterns. Then the subsequent focus on and reliance on the pattern, forgetting about the dynamic that created the pattern in the first place, leading to an occasional and sometimes frequent misreading of the "pattern" (e.g., the "head and shoulders"). "No Demand", for example, is an important concept, but it has nothing to do with bars since bars don't exist in the continuous flow of transactions. "No Demand" is more accurately a "state of being" for the relationship between buyers and sellers at that time. It's a portion of that continuous flow that is led up to and fallen away from. On the other hand, "No Demand" as jargon has everything to do with bars, but for me is far less useful when it finds its way to that particular box. Posted by DbPhoenix here. This is a post I've saved. It may be off-topic, but I like it, so here it is. First I spent many months drawing trend lines on charts until I understood a little something about "trend stages" and then followed price along in real time trying to apply the accelerating /decelerating trend thing. But it wasn't enough. So then I went through the same charts and wrote down the length of price bars during 3 different parts of the trading day, to find out what an expansion bar, a wide range bar, and a wide bodied bar were, and what was a normal or average price bar .( I was ashamed to ask about these at the time because it seemed that everybody already knew but me.) But that was not enough. So then I set out on the road to find the mystery about S/R. I looked at both price highs/lows, and calculated pivot points to find out which level price reacted to more often. I did this with a combination of trend lines and wide bodied bars or the lack there of. After a few months of doing this every day, I got a pretty good idea what S/R was all about. In the beginning I also was studying an opening range breakout strategy, which first ignited the idea of contraction/expansion and how that affected the outcome of a BO. Then I started looking at individual price bars, and where price opened and closed in relation to the overall range of the bar. On and on and on... The point is that this is how I built up my base of understanding of P/V behaviour, by going over the same territory again and again and again with a new piece of the puzzle, and also carrying forward with each discovery. If there is an easier way of learning what is important, I don't know what it is. Posted by DbPheonix here. Depends entirely on your setup. Mine is based on support and resistance. I've very clearly defined what I want to see there. If I don't see it, I don't take the trade. If I do see it, I do take the trade. Without exception. There are hundreds of hammers, shooting stars, gravestones, dark cloud covers, no demand bars, upthrusts, shakeouts, etc, etc, etc in any given chart. It's up to the market student to determine which to pay attention to and which to ignore. I pay attention only to those which occur at support or resistance. So whether or not the ease in selling pressure at support and the shift to buying pressure would cause you to cover or not is beside the point unless that is part of your setup. Since it was and is part of mine, it's my reason to cover. And adding to my short is not an option since that's not part of my setup. What price does thereafter is of no importance to me unless I've entered a long trade. But I didn't. I was done. As to "temporary", the trader has no way of knowing whether the shift in balance is temporary or not. He has to act based on what's in front of him. As to whether a lack of "supply", or, more accurately, selling pressure (unless you're talking about something that actually has a supply, like stocks) equals demand, or buying pressure, it depends on what's happening with price. If selling pressure eases and buying pressure takes up the slack, but no more, price will sit right where it is. If selling pressure eases and buying pressure increases, there will be less resistance to a move up in price, which is what happens in the first bar I've arrowed, as well as the second. As to what happened afterward, price went pretty much nowhere, but, again, I didn't care. I entered where I was supposed to, rode it all the way down to support, and exited where I was supposed to. There were no further setups for me that day, though I'm sure there were plenty of setups for other people. And if all this seems oversimplified, I'd have to agree. That's exactly what you have to do in your setups and your trading: oversimplify. Make it as simple and straightforward as possible so that you know exactly what to look for and exactly what to do if and when you see it. No panic. No euphoria. You see it, you act. You don't see it, you play solitaire. If I may, the following is from the "journal" post to my blog: Therefore, focus on the setup. One setup. Determine its characteristics. Define it so specifically and so thoroughly that you can recognize it without any doubt whatsoever in real time. Decide provisionally where best to enter, what the target ought to be, where the stop should be placed, and so on. Only after the setup is defined and tested (and it can't, ipso facto, be tested until it's been defined) can one even begin to think about trading it with real money, much less trading multiple setups. Attempting to shortcut this process merely expands the amount of time it will take to develop the necessary skills. Nothing is gained by painting the house before scraping it, cleaning it, and priming it since you'll have to do it all over again sooner rather than later. You are free to create your own based on whatever jingles your bells. You may, for example, focus on divergence. Or higher swing lows and lower swing highs. Or candlesticks of one sort or another. Or trendline breaks. Or base breakouts. Doesn't really matter. What matters is that you keep four concepts in mind: demand/supply, support/resistance, price/volume, and trend. In this way, you can create your own setups which hundreds of thousands of other traders won't be watching along with you. You must understand, however, that what determines the success of the trade is the trader, not the setup. If you're looking for something that "works", you may as well save yourself a lot of time and stop right here. What will “work” – or won’t, as the case may be – will be you. Posted by DbPheonix here. A "volume bar" represents trading activity, both buying and selling. Trying to separate the two is pointless. If trading activity is "low" relative to the trading activity (or TrAc, if that's okay; I can't call it "TA") during other segments of the price/volume continuum (and it is a continuum), then there may be little interest on both sides, or there may be a great deal of interest on one side but not the other. You'll know which by how price behaves. If you've chosen to represent price by a bar, and there's a great deal of buying interest but not much selling interest, price will riese because there's "too much money pursuing too few goods". In other words, everybody's desperate for bananas, but there are only a few bananas available. So the price will skyrocket, but the number of transactions will be few. Therefore, if your price bar is extending itself as it reaches R and the volume bar is unremarkable, then you've got a lot of buying pressure (demand) which is driving price higher, but very little resistance (supply or selling pressure) to that demand, keeping "volume" or TrAc, low. Posted by Eiger here. The shortening distance from one low to the next is known as Shortening of the Thrust (SOT). It is a Wyckoff prinicpal. In today's case, as the market tried to go lower, buying came in. The buying kept the thrust (or the waves, swings, legs, etc) from going lower. It is a sign that the market is nearing a turning point. You can see it occur in both up moves and down moves. You can also see it occur in tighter clusters of waves and clusters of price bars like this morning at around 10:00 (see the 3-min chart I posted earlier today). SOT is a great tool. [multipage=Predict vs Anticipate] Posted by Blowfish here. The whole temporary business implies prediction. You can not predict (i.e. you can not know temporary before the event). These approaches/tools are great for seeing what is happening right now. I am guilty of wanting to predict now and then it is a 'psychological trading flaw' and a fundamental human trait imho. Trading need not be about predicting (imho again). Anticipate what might happen (e.g. Supply will enter at 'support'). Monitor what is actually happening now. Take appropriate action (enter long). If things change take appropriate fresh action. If what you anticipated is 'temporary' you can only know when things change. 'Appropriate' might be take half off and stop to BE, close, reverse etc. The trouble is recognizing unambiguously and consistently what is happening now. That only comes with lots of screen time. Posted by Eiger here. Boy, do I ever agree with this. I have to remind myself when trading not to try to predict the market. It really limits me. I consciously try to use "anticipate." When I see, for example, a sign of weakness, I then anticipate no demand. If that occurs, I then anticipate an upthrust. If that occurs, I can take the trade. Thinking this way helps me be more patient -- something I am always working on. I remember reading from Mike Douglas that in the markets, "anything can happen." Sometimes, it seems, that anything does happen. When I am predicting, I start to narrow my mind and filter out contradictory information. I am not open to what the market is telling me. The "anything can happen" seems to occur more frequently when I am predicting, because I'm not in tune with the market. I can't tell you how many times I have taken a short, the market goes down a bit, and then paints a low volume, narrow range bar with a decent close. Because I was predicting, I ignored this signal that the market was likely going to attempt a rally. When I am trading well and anticipating, I can "see" the market better and I am out of the short on the next open. This was such a problem for me for so long, I started keeping a journal just on this. I called it, "The Predictor Speaks," and recorded every time I did this. Slowly, I began to realize that predicting the market was feeding my ego. Every time I predicted and the market did as I predicted (mind you, I was never in those trades!) I felt self-satisfied. In reality, was fooling myself that I really "knew" the market and "understood" it. I came to learn that for me, prediction = ego, and getting my ego involved is a stupid way to trade. I found that predicting limits my trading. I don't see alternatives, I have more losses, and I miss opportunities. Thanks for that post: Anticipating is such a better mindset. Posted by Kiwi here. I have often argued that trading is always about predicting because we are making a statistically based prediction. For example, I am entering because their is a 68% chance that price will reach my target before retracing to my stop when this pattern occurs in this situation. I've found the "you do not predict" school to be frustrating because they mean one thing when they use the word predict and I mean another thing. Here you clearly identify prediction in an almost Buddhist sense. Buddhist's don't have a problem with wanting something ... their problem is with the attachment to that wanting. That's the source of the unsatisfactoriness/unhappiness. Similarly there isn't a problem with predicting that there is a 68% chance of X if Y ... but the problem is the attachment to a statistical prediction. So you use the word anticipate to describe a prediction without attachment to the outcome. So it seems that by saying "I anticipate" instead of "I predict" one can avoid the attachment, the ego issues, and the difficulty in then simply following your process and the market without distortion. Posted by Eiger here. Tom Williams explains this particularly well in his book, the Undeclared Secrets. He talks about many, many trapped traders who went long along the top of the trading range (or, the creek). Professionals who want to move prices higher know that there are thousands of traders trapped up there, looking to sell and get out even on their poor trades. The professionals don't want to be buying the contracts or stock the trapped longs want to unload -- they already have their line bought lower. Having to buy at higher prices isn't good business. So, what do they do? They will rapidly move price through the trading range and jump the creek (or, gap it higher). When trapped longs see this, they are more likely to just hold onto their position and ride the mark-up. It saves the professionals money. It's a useful explaination of breaking through the opposition of supply. [multipage=The Holy Grail] Posted by DbPhoenix here. Alex and I were just in Vegas speaking at a seminar for the Traders' Expo. The room was silent and tumbleweed went by as topics such as mental discipline, money management and psychology were discussed. The slides switched to the trading setups and instantly the whole crowd perked up like watching an accident happen in real time on the highway. They wanted to know "does this guru have the holy grail??" What they do not realize is the first "boring" part of the seminar is the holy grail. Posted by Bearbull here. Understand discipline, money management, psychology are the key factors to be a successful trader, however it is also imperative to generate confidence in what one is looking at on the charts, no point being told over and over again, smart money is at work, how does one learn to read the footprints, how one can find an edge etc, then there will be incentive to acquire discipline leading to consistent execution of a particular strategy/setup. Most folks who will be at the symposium have probably heard of VSA or read Tom Williams book and realized that it is not a black box system, hence there is no question of seeking a holy grail here. We can debate this forever, it is a chicken and egg scenario. Posted by Eiger here. Yup, the Holy Grail is you. Posted by Eiger here. I miss a lot of trade opportunities, and once in a trade, tend to leave money on the table with every trade. These are two things I constantly work on. This was what I meant by my quip above that "The Holy Grail is you." It really is, and so you work on areas that are what I call current limitations -- those things that if you could improve on (like exits), would make you a better trader. That is really what trading psychology is all about. This morning, for example, I totally missed the first run up in the ES on the 5-minute chart, even though a long trade was readable from the chart. After it fell back to Friday's low (1325.25) there was buying evident on the chart (1, 2, &3). You can also see that all the closes in this area were holding at that level (a clustering of closes), and there was shortening of the thrust. That was enough of a story to think about a long trade, and so I waited for confirmation. This came at 4 with no supply and I entered. The next bar was a bottom reversal, so I was good in this trade. The very next bar, however, closed below the middle. I exited the trade right after that bar (blue arrow). Of course, it went higher. I am always drawing support & resistance lines, and when the ES came back to support at 5 with no supply and had a key reversal at 6, I went long again (also, the 3-min chart showed an orderly reaction on narrow spread/light volume). The market popped up and I took the trade off (blue arrow). I thought that the market gave me a nice gift, but of course it went higher. I did buy the second reaction (7), but scratchted it because it didn't rally quick enough. I was thinking it was after 12:00, and it might go nowhere. Again, it went higher. At 8, the market came into the old top at A. There was a lot of activity in this area Friday afternoon, so its worth paying attention to. On the run up from 7, volume increased with wide spread and good close, but look at 8. The close is lower than both the old top at A and the previous bar. It has this result on an increase in volume from the previous bar. That is supply. The next bar, 9, is another upthrust and volume remains realitively high. There was also a shortening of the thrusts and five waves to the swing (an Elliott concept). This was enough of a story to take a short. I almost closed the trade on the next bar becasue of the mid-range close. Instead, I brought my stop to break even and held on, thinking I'll probably get stopped out. I closed it at the blue arrow where support came in earlier. But, again, I left money on the table. When looking at a strategy, I try to put principles together. The principles never change, but the "look" of the chart always varies. Principles include support/resistance, climactic action, tests, shortening of the thrust, etc. In classic Wyckoff, there is a sequence of events that often happen, and it is good to be aware of those. Then I try to read the market as I manage the trade. But, as you said and as you can see, entries are easier than trade management. [multipage=Trade Samples] Posted by zeon here. First arrow: I opened a short before the market opened because price was hovering around ressitance and I didn't want to wait any longer. A signal is a signal, right? That one got stopped out because the news caused price to spike up. Ok next arrow: I shorted on the first spike at resistance. I've found there's often a reversal after news, so I considered this a good signal. I could not really see a reason to exit so I moved my stop up to below the pink line after price plunged and walked away. When I came back I saw my stop hit Third arrow is another short on what looks like a head & shoulder formation. I figured this to be a pretty good opportunity to take on another short and went along, only to get stopped out with a small loss about 30 minutes later (price spike up to the pink line). The final short is one I took on the way down. I figured this time price really had to plunge hard. I moved my stop to breakeven on the next bar, I really wanted to lock in those profits this time instead of letting them fly. But 15 minutes later a spike stopped me out. So this is the story of my day... pretty decent entries in hindsight I think. But managing the trade isn't particularly easy. Continued by zeon here. Thanks, great entries may be the case but despite that no winning trades today . Perhaps exits are more important than entries. Most of my trades actually go in the right direction rather soon after the entry. I use 1 and 5-minute charts, I like to zoom in to pick an entry, I usually take the trade on a market order. I look at volume usually on a higher timeframe though, because it seems to peak all over the place as you can see on the chart. If you zoom out a bit, it's easier to identify "special" volume peaks. I'm still learning to identify the right ones though! What I was looking for in these trades... basically I wanted to ride price down all the way to around 1325. That was a first target because I had support drawn somewhere around there. Perhaps I'm being thick, but I thought prices can plunge sharply in a bear market, but so far it seems like we've seen little of that Posted by Eiger here. I do like the idea of getting out by lunch-time. It is interesting in how we view the charts differently. I saw the action just before 10:00 set up as a spring. Had it happened at any other time during the session, I would have taken it. It is a choice trade. But given that it set up just before news, I passed. I don't really like to trade on news releases, though sometimes like this morning, they can catapult the market. This spring on the ES was actually a pretty nice set up, though psychologically difficult to trade because of the surge of volume after the open. The market had been bid up to put in a higher high and higher low in the overnight. After the open, the market sank. Bar "a" was widespread down with a good amount of volume closing on the lows. VSA teaches that there would be lots of buying on that bar, but it also looked as if it might break the support line. The next bar, "b", showed strong buying coming in. Price dipped just below support and closed above the previous close on nearly the same volume. Now we have a potentially nice spring set up. All we need is confirmation. At bar "c", the market tests the spring on volume less than the previous two bars and holding a higher low with a strong close. That is a near perfect set up. I can see on the NQ where you would short at A. On NQ, price was stopped at resistance. On ES, price made a new high, making it harder to short. The only clue available on the ES in that area was a no demand bar (second bar after the top at A). For me, that wasn't enough of a story to make a trade. DbPhoenix follow up here. VSA is correct, as far as that goes. There's buying and selling in every bar (which a great many people who use color-coded bars miss). If there's lots of trading activity, as represented by the bar, there will lots of buying, but also a lot of selling. What matters is the effect, i.e., the appearance of the bar. This, to me, is one of the more important points that Wyckoff -- and consequently, VSA -- makes. Someone who focuses on a list of "principles", however, and doesn't go beyond that will look at the close at the lows and think "weakness". Someone else, though, may include the enormous effort that buyers are making, which results in the level of the activity. The results of this effort are shown in the next "bar" (though in a smaller TF, one sees a dip and recovery, like a plane flying into and out of a canyon). Again, the strong buying came in during the previous bar. But its effect was not entirely realized until bar b. As to bar c, you're correct about the confirmation. It's just too bad that the whole thing took place backed up against a market-moving announcement. Incidentally, your remark above -- "it also looked as if it might break the support line" -- is an example of what I call The Dog That Didn't Bark. The fact that it did not break the line is more important than it might otherwise seem, and if one is fuzzy on how to interpret the relationship between price and volume, he can think about what "ought to" have happened, but didn't. Posted by Eiger here. There was more buying than selling off the open. There was also nothing much except a price bar or two. One thing to think about is to try to put more things together before making a trade -- easier said than done. A little higher up on the 5-min ES chart (it's the same for SPY), price came up to a level where supply had entered three times earlier in the overnight session. The bars marked A were selling. We know this because they are up bars on high volume closing back in the middle. B was a no demand bar, but we have a light volume bar at C, so the market is saying that it isn't ready to move south. At D, another No Demand, and E is the Up thrust and signal to go short. Also, look at E on the 3-min chart. First, there is shortening of the thrust - meaning that the tops are not making much progress, despite decent volume. This is a sign of supply. Then look carefully at E. A narrow range down bar on an increase in volume. Two things to note about this bar that say supply: 1) the narrow range at the top of the rally on high volume says they were capping the market. 2) this is a down bar with more volume than any other bar since the start of the rally. This indicates a change in behavior and strongly suggests lower prices. This was the trigger for an entry. So, you had several things occurring here that made a short a good probability trade: resistance area, selling occurring on the up bars, no demand bars, shortening of the thrust, capping the market, change in behavior, up thrust. Try to put combinations like these together, rather than just a bar or two. These combos come up nearly every day, often several times during the day. The psychological keys to this are patience and concentration. Posted by Eiger here. You have some of it right, but there are other things going on in the chart. I made up a chart of SPY so you can see what I refer to. In classic Wyckoff, markets don't turn on a dime. They need to first stop the down move, then build cause (i.e., allow for a period of accumulation). There is a sequence that markets often follow that Wyckoff identified. We saw it today. After a down move has been under way for a while, you will get a rally that will typically (not always) last longer and be larger than any previous rally in the down trend. This is called Preliminary Support and signals that we are getting close to the end of the down trend. If you are familiar with Elliot, think of it as the 4th wave. Where you had the Selling Climax, was actually Preliminary Support. There was climactic action, but not really the SC. There was a secondary test (ST), but note that that ST still had a lot of volume. Then, on the rally up you had a series of up thrusts at 1 and No Demand bars at 2. See how the volume was receding on the rally? You don't want that if you are looking for or in a long position. It means there is no momentum (professional buying) behind the rally. Thus, the market is weak. Contrast this with 3 on the chart. At 3, the bars were closing on thier highs and volume was increasing with the rally. Professional support was behind the move. That first rally had nothing behind it and a minor Buying Climax (bc) occurred at resistance and the market fell back. The Selling Climax came later with the heaviest volume on the chart. Two other tests occurred, and accumulation had apparaently been completed as the market then rallied vigorously. Posted by Eiger here. For fun, here is the full SMI/Wyckoff analysis of today: Creek - The area where supply had come in at the top of the accumulation area. There is often (as there was today) a minor and a major creek. JAC - Jump Across the Creek - A Sign of Strength as the market breaks through the oppositional supply. LPS - Last Point of Support. A testing area that the market makes, usually in the same area as Preliminary Support. BUEC - Back Up to the Edge of the Creek - Typically after the jump, the market comes back to test the jump area. If successful, higher prices can be expected. However, the market can also fall back into the creek (i.e., head south and resume accumulation or fall into a downtrend). The Creek story was developed by Bob Evans, a successor of Wyckoff, to explain how the market breaks out of an accumulation area. It was about a boy scout looking for a narrow enough place to get across. It is a helpful metaphor to understand certain market action, nothing more. Please note this is a 5-minute chart. Just because the market jumped out of accumulation doesn't mean were are going to retest last year's highs! Posted by DbPhoenix here. This is a big chart, but you have to see what you're doing. There's nothing remarkable about the volume until August. But the "rally" in July has that tell-tale oval PV relationship. Not a good sign. When price falls shortly thereafter, you have what looks like preliminary support coming in at the first three arrows, culminating in what appears to be a selling climax in mid-August. All this is fine so far, but look at what happens to volume. High volume is not always necessary. In fact, it can be a warning sign. But when you make that higher high, you've got that oval again, and the only remarkable volume here is on a bar that brings price well below the high (which you'd see even without bars). After that, volume picks up, but it accompanies a generally downside bias. When a rally attempt is made, it can't hold above the supply line for more than a day, and there's that oval again. On the highest volume here, price is effectively neutral. Then there are the Transports, which don't even begin to confirm all these rally attempts. It's not just a matter of this bar or that bar. It's also a matter of "waves". Each rally "wave" -- i.e., the whole thing, not just the individual component bars -- shows weakness where one would expect to see strength. None of this may be a signal to you to head for the exits, but it's a signal that you should at least find out where they are. Posted by Eiger here. The attached chart is the small distribution area and turn at the end of February highlighting the confirmation/non-confirmation between the SPY and QQQQ on the 10-minute time frame. At A, both made a new intraday high. SPY made a new high at B, but the Cubes did not confirm, and the early afternoon saw a small sell off in both markets. Interestingly, SPY then became weaker at C. The next day it continued to show relative weakness and gapped lower, made a lower low, and then a lower high at D. QQQQ tried to go higher at D, but there was no confirmation in the larger cap index. This occurred again later (not shown on this chart) and the markets sold off for 3 or 4 days. [multipage=Entries and Exits] Posted by DbPhoenix here. This point should not be overlooked, so I'll emphasize it. Traders commonly feel that they ought to be taking every entry and milking every move for all that it's worth, and that they're still not getting it if they leave any money "on the table" (which leads them to leave the trade alone next time which, of course, is the time when the trade makes a U-turn and they end up with nothing). If you want to make serious money at this, nail your entry and nail your exit, then increase your size. You needn't be trading in and out and in and out and in and out all day long. You can do very nicely -- in fact, better than most -- by getting in at the best time, putting on greater size, getting out at the best time, then saying the hell with it and taking the rest of the day off. Don't concern yourself with all those other possible -- and usually hindsight -- trades. Define your setup, wait for it, play it well, and be satisfied. [multipage=Market Stages] Posted by DbPhoenix here. There are four stages: accumulation, mark-up, distribution, mark-down. The mark-up phase begins when the accumuation phase is finished, though one could argue that it's the last act of accumulation. Distribution begins soon thereafter, while demand is still high for the shares (or whatever). It does not begin at the top. The top is the fumes. The mark-down phase begins after distribution, but some of it can also occur during the end stages of distribution. These are not discrete stages, starts here on this day and ends on that one. What is most important is not to label everything but to detect the exhaustion, and this was abundantly clear in September. Look, for example, at the transports. Now some people apply these terms to brief buying and selling forays that to me have little to do with accumulation and distribution, but I've stopped arguing about it. As long as people know how to detect imbalances in buying and selling pressure and the signs of buying and selling exhaustion, that's good enough. Posted by rsi here. I think we have to distinguish between low volume tests that are happening after capitulation and low volume tests without having capitulation in the background. Capitulation implies that sellers are done. So a low volume test points that there are no more sellers. If there is no capitulation in the background, the whole volume spike and low volume test (I mean the entire move taken as a whole) can be interpreted as redistribution. A failed test with this setup confirms it as a redistribution. The key point is capitulation in the background. Posted by DbPhoenix here. Traditionally, capitulation is defined as the final vomiting, when perma-bulls finally throw in the towel. However, as a concept, one can also use it many times a day for every instance in which bulls allow bears to take the lead and sell with little or no resistance from the bulls, until that point where the bears are done. Which is one reason why I find the term "capitulation" to be of less practical value to me than the process outlined -- and also detailed -- by Wyckoff. Therefore, I suggest that one look at the context, which is what you suggested at the outset, and follow the before, during, and after in order to know what to do next. A capitulation is too often looked at as an event. But bottoming is not an event. It's a process. [multipage=Real-time Exercise] Posted by Eiger here. I know what you mean. One thing I found helpful which I do is to do a quick annotation of each bar on a separate sheet of paper I have set up just for this. I write down stuff like this for each bar: Volume - high/low/ave Bar - up/down/level Spread - wide/narrow/ave Close - highs/lows/middle Significance/meaning - see below In significance or meaning, I jot things like higher high/higher low, no demand, test, up thrust, whatever seems meaningful at the moment etc. I do this for a couple of reasons. First, it really improves concentration. Our minds naturally wander and we start thinking about all kinds of extraneous stuff during the day, so this brings you back to the market and makes you focus (I am a psychologist, too, so I think about these things!). Second, it's a good way to see where you are missing things. If I miss a move, I go back to the log and see how I was reading the market at that time. It is a good learning tool in that way. I basically made a blank table in MS Word and fill it in for the 5 min chart during the day. [multipage=VSA Videos] TL! Videos TL! Videos TL! Videos TL! Videos TL! Videos [multipage=VSA Resources] VSA Video by Soultrader - View here Copy of Richard Ney Report - Download Here More on Richard Ney - Download here Joel Pozen Presentation for in 2004 - Download here

Thread is closed. Please refer to Volume Spread Analysis Part III for further discussion.

hehe yea but they are all hot!!! Its big news here that N. Korea made the World Cup. Its good to see smiles coming from the North Koreans in the midst of such hostility.

Anyone else big on football? http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27240414/ns/sports-soccer/displaymode/1247/?beginSlide=1&beginChapter=1&beginTab=1 They should do wives and gf's of traders. For institutional traders... it'll probably be a slideshow collection of strippers.

My setups are similar to brownsfan... mainly reversal setups using S&R in conjunction with candle patterns and divergence. I find the RSI useful with the Kospi as there is nothing equivalent for a TICK or TICKQ. However, I have a habit of always being alert of price action at the VWAP... it can act as significant entry as well as exit points. The only problem with candle patterns at S&R with divergence is on trend days you can get murdered. Hence, I also use the 60minute opening range as a guide. Its the only guide I use to determine chop from potential trend....I say potential because Im not too good with identifying trend days early. It usually takes until early afternoon to determine this. Sample chart:

Ive seen a number of ex pit traders participate on TL recently. I have always been curious about pit traders... in fact always wanted to be a pit trader. I am hoping ex pit traders can help me answer a few questions. How did you become a pit trader? What is the biggest difference between pit vs electronic trading? Was the transition to electronic difficult? If so, in what way? Is pit trading all about scalping? Care to describe some of the daily activities as a pit trader? Thanks!

Welcome narn and hi from Japan! I hope you enjoy your stay here and will see you around the boards

Thank you all for the continuous support! As many of you know, tremendous hours and work has been put into the site and I am very happy with the growth. A special thank you goes out to all of the contributing members who have made TL into a valuable resource for traders. Plenty of more improvements to come so please stay tuned!

I have decided to move threads from the Ray Barros forum into the Technical Analysis forum and to close the forum for now. Due to the lack of activity, a thread format would be better suited rather than a dedicated forum. Thank you.