jasont

This is an interesting discussion and something I personally haven't thought too much into. However a number of things come to mind. The first thing that hits me is your projected time frame of holding the property BF. I am not too sure about Europe but out here in Australia, banks won't force you to get property revalued unless you are changing the mortgage in some way. If you are planning on holding for a number of years to come (as most property investors tend to do unless they are doing renovations and flipping them), then a good hedge in one way is to simply avoid re-financing as much as possible. Of course this is only worthwhile if a) you plan to hold for say at least 10 years and b) you can afford to continue to pay the repayments quite comfortably. There are the smaller details of locking in fixed rates vs variable ones due to the current rate situation but I think that depends on a property value vs repayments cases by case basis on each property. This does appear to be a typical buy and hold strategy where not realizing paper losses doesn't necessarily mean you haven't lost. However it is the same in any type of trading. If you trade intra day, you don't have to close your trade after 2 minutes because it is in the red when you are looking to hold the position for a couple of hours. Shorter term losses can be held onto and unrealized if your view is to hold for much longer. The same as buy and hold investors if their current outlook on stocks is 10 years plus. Even if they bought at the top of this market back in 2007, it may be premature to close out positions now if they wanted to hold into 2020 on most stocks. So really my point based on what happens out here in Australia, there may not be a need to hedge against one's property portfolio beyond trying to increase rent, if banks don't force you to re-value your property and you plan on holding long term.

I must say the introduction of the E-Micro is great. It opens up the door for smaller FX traders without being fed to the Spot FX shark operators. At $1.25 per pip on the USD/EUR instead of $12.50 per pip, it allows one to position size much better. I had been holding off trading the FX market due to a) not wanting to trade the E-Mini due to size per pip considering the volatility and b) not wanting to give my money to the Spot Operators as well, trust levels are low when there are so many dodgy operators in the business. Now that both of these areas are addressed with the CME, it is simply up to the liquidity being there and I may have another market area to trade .

It is good to see a number of points brought up which were not being discussed. Why are traders of the belief that once they achieve their target they must stop? There are many things one can do upon reaching a daily target depending on one's ultimate objective. For those not wanting to spend their whole day trading or cannot concentrate for 6.5 hours per day, they may choose to end the day after reaching their target. Someone else may wish to reach their daily target and then start the day again as though they hadn't made a dime and input their max drawdown size etc as if it was a fresh day. Someone else may wish to cut size traded for the rest of the day, someone else may wish to increase size for the rest of the day. What one does after they reach their target is completely up to them but it does not need to mean one stops trading which is the choice everyone seems to think is the only one. Again I must re-iterate what one pulls out of the market isn't determined by the market itself. Why is it people think to make more money they need to make more points per contract?

I am guessing my post was too long for you to read and that is understandable. In a nutshell, a) who realistically is going to set themselves a $10 target? and b) if one hits a reasonable target 90% of the time, they can increase their target. I am sorry but goals according to "good" and "bad" are the most destructive goals one can have. How is one to know if a trade is "good" or "bad"? This is the pinnacle of problems with new traders as they seem to think a losing trade means they did something wrong. If they took a loss it means their entry was "bad". There are no fortune tellers in this business, only those who manage risk profitably and those who don't. Goals are best when they are specifically orientated around achieving an objective/goal. The military have some of the most disciplined individuals you will ever come across. Everything they do is aimed at achieving a specific objective and that is broken down into smaller objectives. The specific objective in trading could be to make $500 in a day made up of smaller objectives which could be: Setup - Identify support in a defined uptrend (defined according to one's plan). Entry - Place a long stop entry order at high of reversal candle/range identified at the support. (however one's plan may determine that) Stop Placement - Stop order placed 2 points from entry. Profit Target - Placed at closest resistance in direction of trade. Trade Management - Upon 1st Target taken, move stop to break even where it remains until remainder is closed out. Exit - Exit remainder at break of trend. The above are the smaller objectives made to achieve the specific objective of hitting that $500. Indeed the above is no where near as much as ones trading plan requires in regards to detail. Unless this is just a hobby, one's aim is to make money in this game. The sooner one becomes comfortable with making and losing money in the process of reaching their objective, the sooner one will become consistently profitable.

I must say this discussion is an interesting one. I do truly wonder what the reasons are for people to choose not to have a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly profit target in their trading. Is it that they fear being disappointed on days they do not make their target? Or do they fear missing out on making more money should the market offer them opportunities after they have finished for the day? I find it interesting that every business focuses deeply on the money side of things yet retail traders are told not to think about the money. I haven't traded in a proprietary firm however I dare suggest their traders are given monetary targets to attempt to hit each day. Their was a video I saw from SMB Capital where the prop trader mentioned a daily target that he chases every day. That particular day the trader didn't meet his goal, so what. Video can be found here: http://www.smbtraining.com/videos/day_on_street.WMV Now getting back to every other business that focuses on the money. They set daily/weekly/monthly/yearly targets that they need to reach to pay expenses plus make X profit. In fact it is important that they make this estimate and work to achieve it otherwise they could find themselves out of business very quickly. It is also the way they set outside goals to achieve, i.e x number of sales needed, marketing tools to be implemented to generate x sales, advertising costs that aim to generate x revenue and the list goes on. Now if every other business takes on a role of using profit targets to generate goals and I will assume prop firms also do such a thing, why is it retail traders are so afraid to do the same? I will admit I trade using a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly profit target as this is a business. If I was trading on the weekends because it was a hobby then maybe I wouldn't. However this is a business and to survive I need to know what I need to make on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis to pay the bills. To address some problems people have with using daily targets: If you keep making your daily profit target and find yourself missing out on opportunities when you reach it, increase your target. But if you don't reach it on most days then you have no business trying to make more unless you reach a monetary capital level that increases size traded. If you fail to make you daily profit target, chances are you are chasing targets too high to achieve at the current level of volatility/plan effectiveness/personal ability. If that is the case, drop the target so you can make it on most days. If you find yourself taking trades to reach that target which aren't part of the plan, chances are you haven't defined your plan well enough. If you can't make 9 out of 10 of your trades for the same reasons then you do not have consistency in your trading. That is a problem most likely brought on because there is uncertainty in your trading. Often this is due to having to make too many decisions during the trading day. If you are watching the market looking for a reason to trade without it being framed around a set of consistent guides, you are in for a bumpy ride on the emotional roller coaster. If you look for the same setups, trade the same entries, place stops according to the same guides/rules, manage the trade according to the same guides/rules and exit according to the same guides/rules you will not take unnecessary trades to reach the target. Having this removes the moments in the market when you do not know whether you should or should not be taking a trade. To the adage of only taking what the market offers... the market offers much more than the daily range. The ES market may move in a 20 point range however there may be 40 points total movement that one could have capitalized upon. Does this mean everyone's plan could take 40 points out of a 20 point range day, definitely not. However saying only take what the market offers isn't the right wording. Only take what your plan offers and if it doesn't offer enough, adjust your plan so it can take what you want out of the market. Trading the same setups on different time frames is often a simple way to do this. Putting oneself at the mercy of what the market offers is like playing victim. Please Mr. Market can you pay me today? Instead find a way to pull what you want from the market on a consistent basis. If you find your plan can give you 3 points consistently per day, so be it. That is much more valuable than the guy who pulls out 20 points on a good day but cannot say what he consistently makes as the market determines that for him. The 3 point guy can simply say "My regular maximum drawdown is 2 points per day but on 90% of days I end up reaching 3 points or more. Now I can adjust my size according to my expected drawdown per day and know that on 90% of days I am going to make money. I will also end my day if I reach a max drawdown double the amount of my regular drawdown." The guy who doesn't have consistency in what he makes can't position size most effectively and struggles everyday making points. He also has anxiety because he doesn't know what to expect from his trading. The 3 point guy can load up on contracts in a reasonably safe fashion according to his trading, hit his target and then decide what to do from there. Apologies for the long winded response but thought this topic was interesting.

Haha just after you said that we dropped a few points in the ES with huge volume for premarket... you must have a large market following

Hi Soul, Whatever you have done seems to have worked at my end. I didn't receive anymore duplicate emails after you began working on the problem. Thanks mate.

First of all I can understand your frustration Jon as all of us have gone through a stage when we feel as though we can't catch a break. Just hang in there mate and keep at it. Many traders take a few years to become consistently profitable and that includes the prop guys. Now the trade you placed on the ES at 11:00am was the same time Treasury Secretary Geithner announced the proposed details to the new stimulus plan. Although you may not trade according to news, it is important that you are aware of it so you can expect some increased volatility around it. Don't feel too bummed about the action we saw around that time as it was pretty out of the ordinary.

I sent the email through Soul. Hope it helps.

Hey Soul, Recently I seem to be getting numerous emails for the one post in a subscribed thread. Most recent was a post to the "All you need... is a chart" thread. FW's post was duplicated 3 times however I received 15 emails for it. I have also been receiving the duplicate emails from other threads as well, one being the "New Chat Room" thread. Just wanted to let you know as I don't seem to be getting duplicate messages from other forums.

Mikekcau I don't trade the currencies however I do trade the ES futures which are also a 24hr market. I am not sure if this is the response you were wanting me to give Chris but I'll give it a crack and hope I don't disappoint. Using the opening range of the base currency is ideal. However that range can be developed from what Bootstrap already mentioned: pivot prices. For instance a high followed by a higher low and then a higher high can formulate your range. This then makes your range dependent upon your chart intervals you use instead of an arbitrary time range. I am presuming this is part of why Fish didn't put a hard number on the opening range time across all instruments as it is dependent upon the time frame one trades. Once you have this range you then can calculate your A and C values from umpteen different ways. It could be from PA support and resistance levels, pivot points, Fibonacci numbers etc. I think what really is important is the reference points you develop in which to see market action. Like having a road map for your trading.

Everything is fine inside the chat room Soul. Yesterday I experienced an issue that once I was kicked out, it would take me to section where I had to enter my username and password. I also had to choose what room to enter however none of the rooms was the TL one. Just trying to see if you had the same problem.

What sort of problem are you experiencing Soul?

I think the purpose some members saw for it was posting up a chart on the whiteboard so members could each annotate what they saw on the chart. I personally think it would take too much time away from the charts but other traders have a fair amount of time between trades where they don't need to watch the market so it could keep them occupied.

WHY? I guess I would still rather keep my funds with a bank that the government will do its best to keep afloat but it is another option. I thought I would update my progress on what I found so others might be able to use it. I got in contact with Citibank's International Personal Banking (IPB) sector and they said I can open an account with them from Australia without visiting in person. They do however require a minimum balance of 25k to remain in the account to avoid a $50 monthly fee taken out. I also got in contact with Wells Fargo who also said I could open an account without visiting the bank in person. They require a minimum balance of 1k to remain in the account to avoid a $5 monthly fee taken out. So hopefully others find this information useful and if anyone has any other experience it might be a good idea to post it up.

Thanks for all the work you are putting into this Soul. Much appreciated.

Right now there seems to be some strange bug. Firefox crashed on me and now when I attempt to enter the chat room I am presented with a window to type in my login details and select the room I wish to enter. However none of the rooms are the TL one.

Is there a temporary chat we can use whilst this one gets itself sorted out? Unless of course I am the only one locked out right now?

Thanks for the suggestion Why. I consider myself a bit of a conservative so I couldn't really trust keeping the bulk of my funds with my broker. Part of keeping my funds in a US bank is spreading the risk around a bit. I have more faith in one of the big banks staying afloat in adverse market conditions such as we are seeing now rather than a broker staying afloat. If I can keep some funds with my brokerage account, some with a US based bank account and some in an Australian based bank account I am reducing the chances of having my capital being wiped should things get worse. I know I am not the only one right now expecting economic conditions to get worse before they get better at this stage.

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm not planning a trip to the US for the moment so was hoping to arrange this without visiting the branch in person. There are a couple banks that have international sections that I will try to get in touch with via phone. I thought Citibank in Australia might have been able to help me set up an account in the US simply by vouching for my details over here but thus far have been useless. I'll get in contact with their international section and see what they can do. For anyone else interested in this topic, I haven't found one that will allow a simple online application yet.

I am currently looking for a way to reduce costs associated with pulling funds from my brokerage account on a regular basis. As I live in Australia and my brokerage account is in the US it is costing me $60 to transfer funds back here. This of course is not acceptable in my opinion so I am looking for a better way to do things. First of all I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on the difficulty for someone outside the US to open an account in a US Bank. I.e there appears to be information spread around the net stating that it is extremely difficult since the Sept 11 disaster. Secondly I was hoping to get an idea of which banks are the major trustworthy banks. I have visited the FDIC website but there literally seems to be thousands of banks listed. Here in Australia there are 4 major banks, is there a similar scenario in the US? My aim is to open a bank in the US that I can transfer funds to from my brokerage account. From there I could use a debit card to pull my funds out via ATM. It will cost me roughly $5 to do so but that is much better than $60. Any advice about the US banking system is greatly appreciated.

In that case I would suggest Soultrader had the right idea. Dreamweaver has a good tutorial section that will help you learn basic html from scratch. Html will be enough to easily create a website to store pictures. It also has tutorials on how to upload your site to your hosting company etc. Once you have learnt the basics, depending on your interest you might want to look into learning principles of design etc. Where to place things, what colors work best together, how to use fonts in designs etc. After that you can start making your site look a bit better and look into CSS to help make your website modifications easier.

It really depends on what you are looking to do BF. Can you elaborate on what your intentions are, i.e make sites for other people, sell your own products on your own site etc.

Hey Jon it's great to see you still stick it out in the face of a losing period. Going by your past entries and your profit target points I think you might be able to find a correlation between the change in current market volatility and your results. During the higher volatility periods the market made broader ranges making it easier for one to take 15+ points out of the market. Now with a reduction in volatility you will find it hard to make 15+ points on a move if the market only moves in a 20 point range.

Ok guys this is exactly where I was hoping the thread would head and its great to see others putting in their ways to look at multiple time frames. To keep it on track I think it is best we avoid the use of the word fractal as some people have different definitions of the word. At the same time I think we are all talking about the same thing so it might be best to refer to things as multiple time frames. I am all for a different thread discussing the difference in meanings of the word fractal if that is where people want to discuss it. Great post Hlm as it really hits on the core principle behind looking at the market through multiple time frames. I actually want to go a bit in depth on Hlm's question on how does one define the point he mentioned. I will start by saying that I use the largest time frame for broad trend and the middle time frame to set up the market. I then use the smallest time frame to trigger the entry. I don't want this to become a he entered here or there thread because there are stacks of those threads already. I will take some action from yesterdays market as an example of how I see the actual time frames together. Many traders only take the extreme points on a chart as the support and resistance levels. By that lets use the example I have made below. The top chart is a 5 minute chart and the bottom chart is a 1 minute chart. A low is made at Low 2 on both charts. Many traders would only take the low of that point as the support area. However if one looks at the 5 minute chart it looks like a simple bounce, which it is. However when looking at point 2 on the 1 minute chart we can see a range has been built. Now using the traditional trading idea that markets break out of ranges and then retest them, we can see that the market didn't immediately test the range it made in the 1 minute chart. The market proceeds to make a higher high encouraging one, with the context of the current market, to think that the market is moving higher for the day. Now many traders would only look for the market to reach the previous high and bounce from that, which is a valid idea, and the next level of support is the previous low. However looking at the 1 minute chart we see a range at that low. Typically on tests of ranges, we wouldn't want to see the market reach into a range too far otherwise it makes the pullback trade less likely. So at Low 3, instead of looking for the market to reach the extreme, one can look at that low as a range on the 1 minute chart. So when we reach that Low 3, we can treat it as a pullback after a range breakout. Now for me, this occurs on all time frames. Most traders already know the market ranges, moves up, ranges, moves down. So looking for these ranges on multiple time frames helps one find the ideal points to watch in the market. That is personally how I define the point that Hlm asks the question of. I am sure there are numerous other ways to use multiple time frames so hopefully this gets some more posts in.