RobinHood

(DOM patterns) Why do you think that is? Why does smaller tick make it harder to see depth patterns? I remember the Eurex changed the tick size on Schatz after numerous complaints from traders about Paul Rotter flipping on them (he played tricks in the orderbook). According to Eurex this was just a coincidence though and changing tick size was unrelated to Rotter.

Thanks guys, very interesting. I would assume that the type of players doing this are those technically capable, i.e. someone making longer-term bets based on fundamentals but also experienced with technical price action and capturing short term movements. Or if it is in a larger institution they have teams of people specializing in this? One group makes the longer-term calls another jobs around the position.

Harris Brumfield I've heard of a few traders who would initiate a position and then scalp around it, including I think Stevie Cohen and Yra Harris. What are they doing? e.g. long 10,000 contracts they will not go net short when scalping, but just reduce or increase their position size? e.g. Harris is long 1,000 T-bond futures and he sees a downside scalp opportunity. He will then reduce his longer term position by 100 contracts. Is that it?

Is that fresh from your T&S? if so it would help if those you added timestamps and marked each as to whether they are at ask/bid...

Also, I was just thinking what are the chances of every single person withdrawing a bid? even during an important announcement surely there will always be one careless person who leaves in a buy limit? on a chart it will show as price being traded there but it is hardly the case as not much volume would be transacted at that point. I don't have access to historical intra-day data at the moment so the only way I can find out is ask people, or keep watching the tape...

I've just spent the past 7 hours glued to the Schatz, Bobl and Bund DOMs... If we have 10,000 bids spanning over 10 levels (eurex) and someone attempts to sell 10,000 @ market is this what will create a gap-down? - the price will jump right down to the 10th bid level and show 10,000 filled there? or will the chart still show every level being filled? E.g. if there is 1,000 bids in each level so 1,000 contracts traded at each tick and this will show up on chart. as price rapidly jumping down through 10 levels with the 1,000 vol. Also, have any of you experienced a nasty intraday gap-down where you were leveraged long? BTW are there no books on market mechanics? how each player operates? what their goals are? who is usually showing their hand?

Both. Not funds management (which I associate with bottom-up investing), but proprietary trading initially and then my own capital combined with OPM. I will do that. My economic reading list also includes Von Mises & Adam smith. Also, I actually read an undergraduate Psychology book a few months ago and found most of it inapplicable and useless to my trading. I forgot most of it now.

Care to qualify your curiosity? I'm interested in why it would be useful, both for a scalper and global macro trader. Apart from basic scripting in C# for back-testing and order management what else would a scalper need? If you have some links in addition to your reply, that would be great too. I'm finding it quite difficult to find anything in-depth on algorithms. Yes. I do not have the grade average for Melbourne Commerce. I would have to do Science or Arts and then transfer, another 6months-1year of study. Monash, although probably less competitive internationally, is just as strong domestically. Apart from Melbourne, it is the only other Uni here where Goldman is recruiting (not that this is necessarily where I'm aiming to work, but I interpret it as a positive sign) - a quick glance at their funds management team shows a majority from Monash too.

I think it depends on the type of trading. scalping? Probably not economics. global macro? politics, economics and statistics would help. Don't see how programming would help here.

The University of Melbourne.. "melb uni" is shorthand.

Yes, we can specialize right away here in Australia. However, it seems this is slowly being phased out too. Melbourne University (one of the most prestigious college's here) is slowly implementing the same model you guys have in the US. General studies and then a specialization on a graduate level. I don't think they'll let me straight into classes teaching C, assembler or algorithm design. Usually you start out with first year subjects like 'internet and the world', 'computers and the universe' and other silly things. Wont hurt to talk to staff once I'm in though.

In my opinion the early stages of a traders learning curve are the most difficult. While a trader will always face the difficulty of adapting to markets and evolving, he will only once face what I consider the most difficult part once. I call it 'The coming of profitability' stage. For most people, starting out will mean countless hours and devotion to the market. Not only do you lose money, but when you make money it is hardly proportionate to the effort (read: blood sweat tears) that has been put into making it. (Exception being a paid/non-paid trainee prop trader). Once you have overcome this most difficult early period things are much easier. I'm not speaking from personal experience, but just what I've seen - so if some professional traders would like to chip in here. Up till now I've put in countless hours into trading for years. Over the last year I have averaged 4 hours+ a day and on top of that have been working as a waiter/assistant 3-4 days a week. Some days from 6am. As you can imagine, it is not only money that I've lost. The only thing that has kept me going is a passion/obsession for the markets. For those of you who are trading professionally: How did you find the initial stages of your learning curve? (not from the perspective of trading skills, but its affect on your life) how did you balance your life? how many hours did you put in every day? How do you find balancing your life today? - surely it is much easier to go snowboarding in the alps or to take loved ones out to luxury dinner when your actually making money. Although this is mainly directed to people who began as I did - at home - I would still be interested in hearing from those who began under different conditions. For those still aiming for moon: How do you find balancing your life? What are you finding most difficult? How many hours are you putting in every day? I've found that for me balance has been minimal. I try to go to boxing twice a week and if I don't have an early shift the next day or boxing I'll go out. I have enough money (trading capital) to bust on plenty of overseas holidays with friends but I just feel like I can't give it up. Sometimes I find myself questioning whether this is all a waste. Why not spend all the money I made and just join a wage-paying proprietary firm or IB after college (4 years)? I'm an extremely self-critical person, but I know that if I stick with what I'm doing long enough I will be a gun. I will hit the moon.

OK, so I've organized my enrollments. I put in Economics(Monash) as first preference, with the intent of majoring in econometrics & statistics. My backup, in-case I'm not accepted, is a Bachelor of Science at Melbourne where I would study Psychology & Mathematics+Statistics / or Mathematical Physics. I would transfer to Commerce after a year. I've checked and programming classes are not really an option (unless I enroll in software engineering, which defeats the purpose of me going to college in the first place). If it really is that useful, then I should have no trouble learning it on my own when I need to.

Soul just wondering how your setting out your T&S. E.g., at ask color, above ask, at bid, below bid, between. I noticed you have some with green background white writing, some with +, some white foreground and black background, and then red foreground (which I assume is @ bid and red background being below bid). Is this right? I like the look of your T&S so want to copy.

Markets I will be watching and playing with: OSE: mini Nikkei HKFE: mini Hang-Seng SFE: SPI200 EUREX: bund bobl schatz DAX Requirements: Data and Ninja Trader Cost: During simulation phase $42AUD per month (Eurex data) and an additional $12.01AUD should I chose to play with Nikkei. ($648 annually). Plan: Markets will be watched intraday. The plan is just to play with them, enter and exit when you ‘feel’ like it. Whatever is missed can be recorded with NT recording feature and replayed at a later date. Once I’m confident of my understanding of market mechanics* I’ll begin testing out numerous technical strategies and ideas as well as following various indicators. After a few months, give or take, I will concentrate on one instrument. When I’m confident enough it will be time to go live. Before doing so a risk management plan will be drawn up. Fundamentals for development: • Familiarity with Ninja-Trader and its features, including back-testing ideas on historical data – “Where has the market gone 15 bars after an opening gap?” • Reading the tape: "most relevant to short-term traders but is also valuable to the position trader who needs to get good prices to maximize profits. There is no sense losing execution ticks when you can, with a bit of patience, buy the bid or sell the offer. Traditional charting programs, which display prices in bars along with volume, are of minimal help in tape reading. Instead, you will need applications that allow you to see how much volume is being transacted at particular prices, so that you can track whether price is being accepted or rejected at each level.”… “Scalpers will employ DOM information... these depict shifts among quantities being bid and offered, so that traders can track the flow of potential buyers and sellers in and out of the market place. Initial exercises should be devoted to simply reading supply and demand at a given price and time by calling out whether buyers or sellers are in control (or whether control is evenly divided between them) and whether you think the next ticks will be up or down.” (Enhancing trader performance) + keep an eye on T&S * Trading Mechanics: • Assessment of market conditions: Trending, rangebound, volatile or slow. • Ensuring strategies/ideas appropriate to current conditions • Order placement: using orders appropriate for market conditions to get efficient fills • Order location: selecting prices for orders that correspond to turning points in supply and demand, thereby minimizing drawdowns and maximizing opportunity. • Order division: scaling into positions to reduce initial risk exposure and obtain superior average entry prices; scaling out of positions to secure profits and benefit from favorable movement. (Irrelevant to me in initial stages when I’m trading 1 contract). • Position sizing. Risking enough on a trade to make a meaningful contribution to profitability while avoiding risk of ruin under adverse circumstances. • Exit determination: defining clear criteria for when your trade ideas are wrong; implementing proper stops to manage risk exposure for each trade. • Exit flexibility: moving stop-loss points to protect profits while retaining profit potential. • Speed of execution: making and implementing decisions rapidly. Accuracy of executing. Minimizing errors in order placement. Efficiency of information processing. Monitoring relevant variable in real time to properly manage trades. Training games: Try reversing your signals and see if you can consistently lose paper money (Most of the above is taken from Steenbarger's book "Enhancing trader performance". It is highly recommended)

This is from Ninja-Traders website: . Anyway, even if X_Trader is just a little more realistic, I need something I can afford. Also it would mean learning the platform when I'm finding figuring out NT hard enough..

What are the best uses of a simulator when preparing to trade with real money? Am I watching it to get a feel for T&S before I begin trading? Am I trying different methods and ideas? What about "working orders"?, this isn't really possible/realistic in a simulator. Some of my ideas for using the simulator were: Checkout different markets and different time-frames (1min, 2min, 5min, 15min). Try scalping, try intra-day swing trading Watching T&S, DOM and price. See if you can consistently lose money on purpose (its seems easy to make money in a sim, but can I lose my money while still using proper risk management?) When should I look to move on to trading real-money?

AMP futures quoted me "$2.66" for round-turn for Bund Bobl Schatz, can anyone confirm this? It seems quite cheap as Open E cry is $3.7 round-turn, exchange fees not included, and they charge "$0.35 Foreign Service Fee per contract.".

Anyone familiar with GlobalFutures.com? I'm considering opening an account with them... My other options include: Mirus, AMP, Infinity, TransAct (actually they have monthly commissions requirement - so not a good idea), Advantage (Not sure if these guys are for small retail). Just looking for cheap Eurex access with Ninja-Trader. Access to SFE, HKFE, OSE is also something I'm seeking but I don't think that's going to happen (No I can't trade with IB).

Thankyou Soultrader. I agree with what your saying, but wanted to address one thing... I do not believe this will directly cause you to be a better trader, because ultimately it is up to each of us how far we get (education can be acquired in other ways). However, under certain circumstances I do think it can have a huge indirect affect on your trading. If I could go back in time and speak to myself I would tell myself to have concentrated on school, not because it would make me a better trader, but because had I done that I would be less than a year from 12-hour IB work day, in which I would be following the market. In such an environment, I would learn in a year what is going to take me years to learn now (through screen-time). To most this may sound like hell, but this is exactly what I'm after.

I'm currently enrolling into college for 2009, and I've been thinking about this as it relates to my trading. In his book Enhancing Trader Performance, Steenbarger discusses the "paramount concern" of finding a niche in the medical world. "After six weeks of pediatrics, six weeks of general surgery, six weeks of radiology, and six weeks of psychiatry, students begin to gain a sense for the kinds of medical practice that speak to their strength and interests"... The importance of the niche being that "Success reflects the fit between the person and the performance field". Unfortunately, I don't think this is possible in trading. For instance, I'm interested in economics, but how will I ever get to experience global macro trading without an ivy league degree? At the moment I'm experimenting with much shorter time-frames and styles (e.g. scalping), which I'm enjoying. At the same time I'm studying economics in the hope that I will later be able to integrate that into my strategies. Which brings me to something I've noticed. Many (not all) of the traders I admire most have formidable qualifications from prestigious schools. E.g. Michael Marcus: PhD (Psychology) Stanley Druckenmiller: Was enrolled in PhD (Economics) Bruce Kovner: Was enrolled in PhD (Political Science) at Harvard Jim Rogers: B.A and Masters from Oxford Stevie Cohen: B.Ec from Wharton Yra Praxis: Masters in Political Science, Economics major and to throw in a scalper, Paul Rotter. Although there is no mention of his degree, he did work at a banks execution desk (a job one can safely assume to require higher institutional education). Obviously college and success is not a causal relationship as there are exceptions, but I do think there is a strong correlation. Is the advantage these guys have so great because of the way they were taught to acquire knowledge (from their institutions)? Is it the network provided by elite colleges? Is it simply the ease of finding high-level jobs (which allow you to discover your niche and study it more intensively than you ever could on your own) when coming from elite colleges? their intelligence (something I believe one can vastly improve)? This relates to my trading indirectly, because I'm considering completely changing my applications to college. Instead of applying to a 3-year Bachelors in Commerce degree at a university relatively close to me, I was thinking to apply to one of the best colleges in Australia (Melbourne University). Due to my academic records not being high enough this would mean at least an extra year of studying "arts" (options include: psychology, economics, political science also) so I am able to get into their Commerce degree. I'm already late to college as it is (I tried to "make it on my own") having recently turned 20, but I don't wish for my mistakes to effect this decision (cutting losses).

The ones I found look shady - no one I would trust an initial deposit with. Would you know of any allowing Eurex and asian trading? Indeed, Sydney is much better for the type of role I'm seeking. However, I can't afford the move without first finding a solid job (no entry-level positions, such as sales). Most of the firms you mentioned have graduate intakes. I've actually applied to some and they are very strict in that regard. The only exceptions being Propex and Fusion (they don't take trainees). Propex is a very solid place. They pay their trainees a very basic salary during training (just for personal expenses), and most of the people I have spoken to who were involved in the firm spoke very highly of it. (PM me for more details if you like). All you need to get in IMO is mental strength, intelligence and a trading record / sim / blow up etc AND to convince them that you are actually capable of moving to Sydney. I think, although I'm not sure, the reason for such a shortage of prop firms here is the regulatory environment, and this could also be the reason behind their basic salary for trainees. I've enrolled into Monash next year, and by then I'll aim to get out of Australia. IB or MM route. Otherwise, Sydney it will be.

I've heard many times of daytraders who were raking in money during the late 90's bull but then went broke when the market topped in 2001. So I guess they were buying the dips or the breakouts. Even so, wouldn't they have had time to learn different market environments during a market correction before the top? it would only take a market correction of a week or more for them to experience a drawdown and learn to adapt no (since they are trading more frequently than a EOD breakout type of guy)?

I should have mentioned I was there. They are in Sydney. I had an interview there a few weeks ago.

Another thing is, I will always get filtered by HR or a recruiter because of my age and qualifications. However, anytime I get direct contact with someone involved in trading I will get an interview. I have been *close* to getting a junior role at a local private equity fund because of exactly that. Unfortunately, most companies and adverts on job sites seem to be through recruiter companies. Just now I've been compiling lists of additional companies which I can email, but I think it may be better for me to go in myself, although I'd imagine it would be extremely difficult convincing HR or secretary to let someone in charge talk to me.