monad

Have been going through your posts with great interest as like Dbphoenix, you are walking your talk. Ref: to your mention of MTP predictor, Richbois of TTT (Taylor Trading) also uses that to enhance his trading , so there is obviously merit there. BTW, have you ever employed Taylor method. Also which Brooks post you are referring to, is this pertaining to Al Brooks who seems to have amassed a large following, all looking to him to open up a trading room/mentoring etc after putting up a few posts here.

yes great definition of an edge -clarity from Db as usual. What is mind boggling is that somebody trumpetting to have that kind of experience is in a beginners forum seeking true edge or a system for trading without having the slightest idea of what an edge is and then having the gall to assume that nobody on these sites is making money. On what basis does he announce that? Surely experience in trading should have taught him by now that "Assumption is the mother of all .............." and also that developing an edge or a consistently profitable strategy requires considerable personal effort and discipline over a prolonged period. Shamal, would not hold my breath if I were you. Guy is probably in the company of millionaires or billionaires perhaps head hunted by Soros or Buffet after one of them read his life history in here;)

Personally find taking account of premarket action and S/R levels provide better trade location. Attached: 1. premarket uptrend line break, with 2 legged downmove, good long at A 2. Test of previous swing high around 937 expected, failure to breakout, resulting in pullback, good short at B.

From where we are Glastonbury is strictly south west, where as you say "fairy twinklers" "The New Age Crowd" hang out. Don't think they are much bothered about the markets. That would be too mundane for them:))) Spacewise we cannot match anything in US, whenever I get back from a trip to US, everything looks so cramped here but we like to imagine that our closets are like big US cupboards with lot more skeletons;) Good Trading

Accepted, let us put all this behind us, Next time instruct Manby to come in and face the music himself. Don't be naive enough to just blindly believe what he or anybody at TG says, you are dealing with savvy southern England crowd here, so take heed:)))) All of these guys have skeletons in their cupboards, There is no smoke without fire;)

Agree with both you and rigel, IMO volume analysis allows you get behind the patterns so to speak, the fundamental forces ie. buying and selling which go to create those patterns. and once you learn to see that, you don't need to get too involved with the various terms. Al has presented some great insights for day trading and volume analysis would even enhance that understanding. In that respect I also found Dbphoenix's ebook very informative indeed as well as all the material on the Wyckoff forum. As Head2k on another thread has emphasized, there are just a few basic concepts to digest on price/vol.))

For a start instruct Eiger the moderator and Guru to withdraw the statement branding me as Albert Lobos, who is a total charlaton and conman, fleeced a few friends of mine of their hard earned cash, and that next display patience and maturity to verify what he is informed by his Guru and Chart Reading Machine, S. Manby. Inform him anyone who is trying to guide folks to the original source of VSA is not Albert Lobos and also stand back and objectively observe what the Chart Reading Machine is doing : nothing but pulling in suckers into the vortex of VSA clubs and ongoing seminars, bootcamps, advanced weekend courses with secret setups, :crap:

Quite amazing, mere mention of Wyckoff used to wind people up in here, they only wanted to talk about pure VSA methodology, Thank goodness, now it is acknowledged that VSA is all derived from Wyckoff only and now they harp on about Wyckoff. If anybody else besides a VSA user utters the word Wyckoff here, , than ofcourse it is taboo, an attack on VSA and told to migrate to VSA crock or not thread. plain ridiculous:)))

I am told the account is directly with Infinity and there was no question of any monthly fee then, and a five figure sum is in the balance as per recent statement which does not show any deductions of fees whatsoever.

If you wish to trade a liquid market, then volume matters, not necessarily in your trading (as you could choose to trade via other technical analysis) but in the market place. As to the periods in which prices keep rising on low vol, especially on slow grind up days, simple, sellers are not willing to sell, and demand keeps creeping up and vice versa. If sellers appeared in force, volume activity would increase, however price could still keep rising when buying pressure is greater than selling pressure and vice versa.

Tom, Have a friend who has an account with infinity/Transact, but has not used the live platform for quite a while as he has other spreadbetting accounts, is he in any danger of loosing the balance in his account i.e does the company after some point in time close the account and the client kisses goodbye to his account balance.

There is a danger in taking these setups in isolation. Al points out clearly that a TL break does not equate to reversal, Refer to the Best Trades chapter. Also avoid anything that looks like barbwire, which is where the short was, there is section on how to trade barb wire page 320, especially after a false breakout, you have to take the trade in the other direction, At the initial stage, it is best to avoid these, Al emphasizes on the need for patience for clear setups ie. when in doubt, stay out. After a strong trend, if there is a TL break, expect the market to test the previous high in 2 legged move. Lastly this was also the time period ie. after lunch EST when reversal occur, it is there somewhere in Al's book. Plus in that pattern there are clear candlestics of climactic nature ie. doji bars closing on the high with long tails , Al has pointed these out as indication of buying. Think the book is not an easy read, there are so many elements which have to come together, however it would be best to focus on the Best Trades at the initial stage, until such time as when all the chapters have been studied over and over again. IMO

Think we mix up issues and then get into controversy. 1. Demand and supply are intrinsic to the working of the market. Without buyers and sellers interacting , their activity being reflected in transactions ie. volume, there would be no market. Hence volume is activity or effort if you like to put it that way and the resulting move or lack of it, is the result of that activity. Wyckoff studied this aspect and understood it well enough to read the market to be able to anticipate and trade. 2. Now one can choose to study these price/vol dynamics and incorporate them into their trading strategies/tactics. For that trader Volume is important. We are not talking about DOM, time/sales, bid/ask etc here. 3. Others and there are many successful traders doing just that, trade without looking at the volume bars on their charts and employ other technical analysis to guide and provide them with aa framework and structure to trade ie. RSI, CCI divergence, fib numbers, gann, elliot , candlestick patterns, moving averages etc. Infact if you look at Al Brooks latest book, he trades entirely from just one single 5min chart with one moving average and trendlines/channels. I have communicated with him, he has gone through every indicator out there, including volume studies and probably understands the patterns that he outlines in his book well against that background, so he does not need to have the volume bars on the chart. However he does mention volume climax etc and many of the charts in the book do have vol. bars. So it appears that that if you study price/vol long enough and observe the patterns forming just like looking at RSI divergence and price action long enough, you eventually reach a point where you may not require these on the charts. Anyway the point of all this is Volume is the engine which drives the market. However whether it is important to trading is a personal choice. Hence as you say there is nothing right or wrong. So really there should be no clashes between those who use it and those who do not,))

Trading via lower time frame charts is recommended especially in fast markets as today in the first 90min or so. Page 156. The Breakout Pullbacks and Trendline break setups are much clearer as shown on the 2min chart. After the shallow (first) TL, there is a weak effort to create a lower high then a 2 leg move down, and after that we have 2 leg up.

Actually meant prices have risen for a while i.e trend has been underway with a couple of higher lows and higher highs. But you are right if the price has just bounced off the support, than the scenario you just outlined would be relevant. Anyway all this would benefit if the person makes some effort to put up charts and make an effort to go through some of the excellent threads on your forum especially the volume thread and trading the wyckoff way just to highlight two, IMO

Sound more like observing climactic situations at certain support or resistance levels. If there is a substantial surge in vol at these levels followed by prices going in opposite direction on lower vol, then supply has overcome demand for the time being in rising market and vice versa. These are high vol up bars followed by sideways trading and then prices falling on low vol. It could represent lack on selling if retracement is occuring or lack of demand if reversal. This is where volume study is imperative as it represents effort and any movement in price is the result thereof.

Think if you go over the posts here and in previous VSA threads, all the differences have already been thrashed out. Unfortunately the view still persists that there is a separate independent methodology called VSA, whereas infact I have already pointed out that Volume being Effort and Price move ie. range/spread being the result, effectively price action is analysis of effort v/s result, which is already explained by Wyckoff but a fancy name was invented for that: Volume Spread Analysis, "Undeclared secrets..........." basically explain or elaborate on Wyckoff principles, it could just have been entitled "Further Elaboration of Wyckoff Principles" but instead a new term was coined up VSA, for marketing purpose and thus we have ended up with the Tradeguider Circus:))) Then ofcoure there is the constant harping on about dumb/smart money and as you say analysis of every tiny little bar attached with meaning, and ofcourse that constant shuffling between different timeframe charts during a seminar to look for the ideal signal:))) worse are the generals statements regarding markets not liking upbars on high vol, or down bars on high vols, etc, nonsense. just depends where the action takes place, if there is a supply to the left for example, if the traders are looking for higher prices, this supply will be mopped up and activity will rise i.e vol will increase, simple:)), where it matters if it is climactic at certain significant support/resistance levels. But ofcourse all this will not be pointed out by TG crowd, otherwise who is going to buy all their stuff:))) They have to propagate the myth of VSA- something unique, a 3rd dimension of looking at the market. Anyway enough of this nonsense, Manby started it , let him come and explain, very doubtful though:))

TW wrote "Undeclared secrets.................." based on his understanding of Wyckoff's principles and went on to incorporate them in a computerized program called VSA Later when GH came on the scene, TW then assisted in transforming them to "Master the Markets" and Tradeguider software. They are intrinsically intertwined, which part do you find illogical. Where is the doubt as to the origin of the material in "Undeclared secrets........." or Master the markets or for that matter VSA indicators. It is clear as daylight, the only thing preventing from seeing that is self delusion/belief that VSA is a separate entity with an independent validity and if any mention is made of Wyckoff then it is assumed it is from Wyckoff zealots. Learn to face the reality. Astonishing part is why are you finding it so difficult to face what is so plain and obvious. We know for a fact you are pally with Manby having visited him, and admire your loyalty, this is not anything personal with Manby but simply with the way the masses are led astray. Truth hurts, tough and BTW it was Manby who came in to question a posting first, nobody set out to engage in lengthy discussion, Manby wanted statements of facts, well here they are.

Trying to isolate Tradeguider and VSA is a delusion, for Tradeguider is choke full of so called highly sophisticated VSA indicators. GH, Manby, TW and the rest represent what, Tradeguider or VSA, what are they exactly promoting or trying to educate the public in? They make claims of the 3rd way of looking at price action, a new dimension as GH announces, the poor sods attending these seminars are given the impression they are soon going to be in possession of the holy grail, ofcourse first and foremost is the $3000 software, followed by ongoing seminars, bootcamps, advanced courses, DVDs and the rest. Even after an outright purchase of the software you are locked into logging on their servers , it is not like buying Metastock etc. Talk to anybody who owns it and see how much hastle they have had to put up with all the glitches for such an exorbitantly priced charting pack. If the intent was just to teach VSA ie. Effort v/s Result, to trade via gauging Buying and Selling pressure, then just direct these folks to where all this is already well documented and explained with great lucidity and from which all was borrowed in the first place. Where is the need to invent a fancy term Volume Spread Analysis? . GH's main goal now is to make hay as quickly as possible whilst the sun shines. Introduce more speakers like H.Pruden etc to boost up the image, pure marketing. A new generation of Tradeguider software is now in the pipeline, dangle the carrot, folks will be waiting impatiently for that, for with the new software they are under the impression they will be able to read the footprints of the dumb/smart money without any effort:)), the clever part is keep telling them "We are not a Software Company", and guess what Manby, TW are all playing their role in this process. People are being sucked into this fathomless vortex oblivious of the fact that all the info. that require on trading with price/action (via volume) is freely and readily available. Ofcourse at the end of the day it is the choice of the individual trader. Nobody is ramming this down their throat, the intention here is only to bring truth to the attention of those who are prepared to examine it with an open mind on a public forum and if this effort saves even a few wannabe traders their hard earned cash and ongoing frustration and struggle, then it is worth it.)) It is realised that all this is not going to make much difference at TG for there is no shortage of starry eyed suckers out there:)))

It is not a question of being right or wrong, that is all ego oriented, trading has nothing to do with that. Wyckoff emphasized anticipation with total flexibility, not predicting. Take any maths based indicator, RSI, CCI, MaCD , Stoch divergence and you can find zillion setups on any timeframe which pan out and another zillion which do not pan out. Probability simple. However I know traders who have constructed specific strategies/tactics/ and most importantly rules to trade with this on a single timeframe chart with outstanding success. My point is simply this, if we all agree that VSA is nothing but a reflection of Wyckoff then why not just emphasize the fact that it is all about analysis of Effort and the Result thereof. ie. buying and selling pressure, and to understand any concept like spring, absorption , dead centre etc, refer to the original sources rather than getting mired into smart money, etc nonsense.

There is no hatred involved here at all, what I dislike is the way this whole price/vol business is being pedalled to unsuspecting wannabe traders out there. Infact Tom himself is a quite a nice guy (first to admit, his book "Undeclared secrets... is excellent) and frankly so were you (until you got up into this marketing ploy) and probably still are evident from the London DVD where you publicly express your differences with Gavin in no uncertain terms.)) Gavin is not only a Salesman, but remember now also an expert and professional VSA trader:))) Does he need Tom or you now? Afterall Todd Krugger was used for a while to promote and bring the lagging VSA7 to US under the new glossed up title Tradeguider trumpetting the 250 or more highly mathematical formulas with flashy trend clusters, H stops, volume thermometer, VSA indicators, diamond stops (nothing but a simple 5ema). Ask Tom if he had super duper programmers to do that job on VSA. Infact check with Martin Cole and Dr. Dhallu who have both used the same programmer: Martin Cole a Successful Forex Trader Tells it Like it Really is FIRST - Day Trading Software Infact Dhallu's charting software had the exact format of VSA, if you are not convinced, Tom should enlightened you on this. The simple fact is that VSA is derived entirely from Wyckoff V- Volume- EFFORT S- Price Spread - RESULT Hence analysis of Effort v/s Result. period, This is at the heart of Wyckoff. There is nothing in Wyckoff about market not liking Upbars or downbars on high or low vol. and that harping on about professional money, is that in Wyckoff also. You think it is necessary to have a $3000 charting software and countless seminars, DVDs, Advanced courses etc for that. Basic Sierra chart will suffice at $20/month. As Tom and you have learnt everything from Wyckoff why not point the wannabe traders to the original source, rather than sucking them into the Wonder Software, ongoing Seminars, Bootcamps etc(BTW wonderful marketing ploy: "we are not a software company, we are here to teach you how to fish" and all the rest of it) all they need is to study 20times the 1930-31 analysis (freely available in wyckoff forum) to grasp the basic concepts of Price/volume analysis. without getting entangled in unnecessary jargon. As Rigel has also stated, there is enough info. on the wyckoff forum here to put any trader on the right path, all that is required is willingness and motivation to put in independent effort rather than relying on Tradeguider Co. whose main aim is to fleece the public of as much money as they can in as quick a time as possible. by getting them hooked into the circle of devout VSA followers with ongoing seminars, VSA clubs, bootcamps, advanced courses, setups which have never been revealed before. Ask this: is there any mention of Advanced and never before revealed setups in Wyckoff, check it out with Tom:)))

If you have slogged through Wyckoff and Taylor , especially Taylor, then all you need to get started is the chapter on Best Trades in Al's book, ofcourse you will have to keep referencing many of the terms in there via glossary, You will find they blend with and reinforce Wyckoff concepts. On top you only need to focus on the main trend of the day as per Taylor, however with Taylor it is imperative to stick with his original methodology rather than any variations introduced by others like G. Angell, L.Raschke etc. Good luck

Nicely anticipated based on price action:))

If all the Hedge Fund managers and their analysts were more savvy that rest of us, most of these funds would not be under water now, they would have seen the credit crunch coming, how many of them did? I have watched the London Symposium DVDs, various setups on varying timeframes anything from 2min to 3min to 5min to 7min and so on. No consistency whatsoever as Rigel has pointed out. I have seen exactly the same setup on that video link you posted that will not pan out, why because buying pressure materialised, then ofcourse you guys would have come out with justification, flicking back and forth to other time frame charts, adding trendclusters, channels from higher time frame charts etc, diamond stops, and all the other 250 supposedly highly mathematical indicators incorporated in Tradeguider, branded as the worlds only sophisticated program. When everything pans out, then blow the trumpet. On that London Symposium DVD, the setup entries and stops were being determined with the subsequent bars in sight, "O, I would have not placed the stop here, but there," why, simply because the trade would have been stopped out, but that is what would have happened in realtime, there was no luxury of hindsight to let you know in advance where would be the ideal stop placement so that particular trade would not be stopped out. As for the sequency of events of you being sidelined from VSA team when Todd was around, and then subsequent reentry into prominence, the world's first chart reading machine, well that is a fact. I have known VSA before Gavin even heard of it. In U.K it did not receive much attention, until it was taken over to US rebranded as Tradeguider and marketed at 5 times the price:)))) No shortage of suckers out there

The Taylor Trading Technique (Paperback) by George D. Taylor is available at Amazon.com, it is a very tough read, you can get some idea of the concepts on the Taylor thread on this website. Wyckoff is a course, not a book, if you go into the following threads on the Wyckoff forum you should get more details, you can also inquire further on those threads, plus there is a ton of free available from Dbphoenix there which is invaluable as is his ebook which is relatively inexpensive and will certainly supplement what you read in Al Brooks. http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f131/wyckoff-resources-3866.html There are also threads in there on "Ask any wyckoff related questions and Trading the Wyckoff Way"