edabreu

I want to clear a few things up about this topic and hopefully lay it to rest. The BWT indicators are, in my opinion, one of the best available. They function not only discretionary, but also as a mechanical system based method with strict rules. Add to it a wise money management strategy and you have a really good trading system. Whether or not you use the auto trader or dicipline yourself to take the signals, and use the filters and price savvy to help recognize the lower probability one's, the signals are clean clear and precise. My particular method of using them is the result of a few years of great success, but in the beginning it took a bit of work to learn the other parts of trading that have more to do with you than the tools. So, that is what they are - really great tools to work with. The holy grail..no of course not. They will also require screen time and observation to build confidence in the signals. You will still have to learn to trade - all the other really crucial parts about trading that no method, system or box is going to solve for you. Will they work for you? That depends on you. They will require training (just like anything else) to use them properly. What most newer traders are looking for are some good tools and also some good education and some direct training and guidance in how to use the tools well and actually see someone use them successfully consistently. Traders need to see someone trade successfully in the live market using the tools under consideration. Traders also need to see what dicipline, patience, and sound money management looks like under fire, and want guidance to duplicate the results for themselves. I am looking forward to the re-opening of the BWT "TRADE" room, and hopefully the demo sales room will be seperated out so you can have an opportunity to check them out and see for yourself if they are a match for you. If you asked me why the BWT tools have worked for me I would say because they are unique, and were not like anything else I had used before. Range bars have something to do with it also. By the way...I get no compensation or bennies for these comments. I just think that so many traders come from such bad experences (myself included) that we tend to lambast anything we do not understand, use or know about, and we do newer traders a dis-service by dissuading them away from something that may work for them. Rather is to give your opinion based on sustantiated facts or direct experience, not on the 'rumor' and general bad history associated with the typical tool vendor.

I had a sell stop in early at 1061 on the ES with a fixed profit target at 57 and a catastrophy stop at 66 on 4c for the news trade today (unemployment). This was a rare one - but after yesterday's muscle up on air my experience told me a very good chance the dump after the pump was due. Also, the daily chart has a good short signal for the things I look for in bigger trade setups. Got lucky!

No, I am not. I am an independent trader. I use the indicators which do work very well for me. I have beta tested for BW in the past, and did moderate for them in the past as well as for other trade organizations in the past, as well as traded for a hedge fund in the past. And I agree that a free trial for such an expensive system is a must. Back testing is not real time to you or me, and our ability to actually use the system profitably in real time is very important. If you do not have the capacity to work the system what good is the system to you anyways? No good at all. So with a trial at least you get a chance to find out if you can work it or not before plunking down almost $8g's. There are many good systems and methods out there, but what we need is the one that we can work profitably, not the one that looks good but is impossible for us to work it. Also, rarely (have only done this once) do I ever tell anyone to stay away from one system, method, or style calling it crap. I don't know if it is crap for you or not. I keep the point of view that what works for me may or may not work for you. If you can get a free trial for things you are considering, then do it if you think there may be edge in it for you. Otherwise discard it.

A couple of issues: The BWT current trade room is a 'sales' room and it's pretty frustrating since it trades off hours, and the moderator seems to be in trades before the room opens and so is of little benefit to those looking for a trade signal room. There is nothing wrong with this, let's just call it what it is. As a indicator sales and demo room it is excellent. The moderator really does well. As a trade signal room it needs a bit of work. How about the attendee's? Can they do well also? As a learn to trade room it really sucks. If you do not have the tools and the auto trader it really makes little sense to you. However, the indicator's are excelllent, and the auto trader is very good. Remember - it is not how good the moderator does, but how good you are able to do following his/her lead. So before you consider any room - know what you are looking for. Trade signals? Learn to trade? Shopping for tools...it is important!

What a market today.....

Investing and trading since 1990's Been day trading about 9 years Going on 5 years as full time - albeit only about 4 hrs a day max Ran a hedge fund for 3 years Do it for profit..and fun. Teach occassionally 1:1

Hey Brian - It's my own little scalper pattern and it works for me. It is based on range bars. If you are not familiar with range bars then go research them. Once you understand the nature of a price range then those notes and patterns should become clear. Think of a time and sales window aka the tape. You are trading a predefined price bracket. So a 6/4 range bar combo means a 6 tick price bracket, and a 4 tick price bracket. Yes, I confess I am a dinosaur... I trade the tape.

We had a really good day today trading the CL and TF.

Here is my favorite scalp. It's a price pattern using range bars. Doesn't work on time based or tick charts. Only a 6/4 range bar chart pair. This will give you an idea of what you will be working towards.... your own style and approach as well as setups you have tested and established as a "works for me". Take everything here and everywhere else about trading with a test it and see attitude. No one, absolutely no one, knows what's going to work for you when it comes to trading. Give it lots of time and let it develop!

Stay clear of this mess. Shadow traders has changed methods, systems, approaches, charts and just about everthing at least 4 times in the years I have known about them. How you can find a decent clear clean signal on their charts is beyond me. In the world of absolutely uselss information, they rank up there with the worse of them.

BTW - to be fair to Randy of Blue Wave, that is definetly not a black box. Also, it has been doing pretty well since August on the ES. You can check out their website and see the reports including the trades. What it actually does is just take every signal of the bar color changes. If you turn on some filters it will qualify some of those bar changes. So, in essense it does just what you as a trader without the auto trader should be doing if you bought into his system. So it is important to find out the best sensitivity setting and the best chart type for the instrument you are going to use it on. I think they have a chart based on backtesting of different settings for different instruments. I personaly have issues with the fee they are asking than with the actual auto trader. All my tests with it have shown it to be pretty good actually.

Yes, I use a lot of discretion which centers on the price bars and their location. You simply cannot blindly take every signal. I do not use the auto trader. But from my research of it, for the ES, a 7 range bar with a setting of 1.81 from the hours of 9:32 to 11:15 am est seems to work best.

I thought by exposing my method, setups, risk and money approach it would give others an idea of what needs to go into creating your own trading plan and trading system. It took me a long time to first find the trade signals that were more reliable than others, and to look beyond the standard system generated signals. Since this started with a bought mechanical system that by itself looked decent, I found myself spinning my wheels in the beginning since it is true that it is not the system, but whether or not you can work the system that is crucial. I had to find a way to qualify the signals beyond the canned system, and a way to actually make money consistently beyond the colored bars and signal arrows. So, the rules were devised as a result of using this canned system in real time and observing where it failed, and where it succeeded. Also, I had to find a way to reliably get back in if I hesitated taking the canned signal. The reasons for hesitating are many. Most prominent is that if you do not understand why a signal is generated by a canned system, then you must have complete faith in it to trade it. That is something no system has been able to do for me. My success rate to first target is greater than 80%. My style is a scalpers approach. I use the first contract to buy some or all of my risk for the second contract. I use the volitility marker to trail when I can, and sometimes I use the last bar hi/lo mark. I used the range bars that have been color changed to reflect a moving average, and a trade channel that is also color coded. I used the cci filter that has been color coded. The reason for the colors was to make it easier for me to visually identify confluence across the chart. I know there are a lot of purists out there that would choke on these charts. So what. What you need to do is find out what works for you and not listen to the spartans, or the purists, or anybody else. If you are butt ugly and your charts look butt ugly and your style is wild and weird doesn't matter. What matters is what works for you. However, I can tell you that the simpler the better in most cases, and the more you concentrate on the price bars the easier it will get. At this point I trade a bit differently than what you see here. I take long signals on the red bars, shorts on the blue, I get in sooner, stay longer, I turned off the arrows, eliminated the range bands and almost always ignore the CCi except when it approaches the zero line. Anyways, here is the method I used before I got past the colors. You can duplicate everything you see here using Trade Navigator or just about any good charting package. So I have omitted where I bought the tools so that you not focus on them. What you focus on is a sample of someones method and style and start to consider what you need to do to create your own based on your results and what you need to get consistent results. I was fortunate in that I started with a decent canned mechanical system, and took my time to make it work for me. Also I have included two counter trend setups. It is a method taught to me and it is stepping in front of the freight train. The last setup is one I noticed as a result of using range bars for the last few years. If you are going to use it keep in mind it only works well at key areas of support or resistance or at the extreme outer ranges of a clearly defined price trading channel. This is the first time I am publically defining my methods and setups, so I hope it is clear enough to give you a good starting point towards devising your own. I am not concerned about whether it works for you, since as mentioned before, it's whether you can work it that will make the difference.

The best place to start your 'training' is in front of your charts in the live market with the books you are reading right along side you. Read one about technical analysis. It should have some stratgies described within it, and discussions about the varous indicators and price patterns. Start to focus on finding those patterns on your charts. Do this first in static time, then work your way up to real time recognition. As an added exercise, put one of the strategies mentioned in your book onto your chart. Paper trade it and see what kind of results you get. You will need a good trade platform and some data feed. The platform depends on what kind of trading you are interested in. Trade Navigator is a good robust platrform that will scale up with you as your advance. Ninja is pretty good too, but when you get to the point of devising your trading strategies and systems and possibly atuo-trading them, Ninja is difficult to code. Trade station is easier to code, but I cannot recommend their data feed for intraday. Make a training schedule of a specific amount of time you will spend with hands on market evaluating and stick to it. Split your reading into technical and other (mindset and physcology) and read the technicals in front of your charts so it becomes productive. The other read in comfort away from the market. So, decide what kind of trading you are interested in and go from there. You can always change your mind later. For now, do not trade cash.

I currently use the BWT toolset. I do not use all the tools, only the price bars, the moving average, the range bands, and the cci filter. I bought them years ago when they were not as expensive. Would I buy them again? Yes, definetly. I have found for myself that when I started to trade the tape, the range price bars, and the volume that the indicator tools came together for me and aided in my trading. I trade range charts. A range bar is a pre-defined price bracket. I use a 6 range for the ES. For each market I use a range bar appropiate for that instruments character. So, my focus in on the movement of the price bracket, and the patterns it creates as it moves around the chart. I use the trend colored price bars to aid in seeing the types and shifts in the trends, the ma to help see the turns, the bands to define a possible deviation extreme and to aid in the pattern recognition. The cci helps with the speed and distribution of incoming volume. This is how the tools help me to understand what I see and I trade accordingly. So, if you saw him successfully trade his toolset, you would assume you could too? If you saw anyone trade their way, their tools you would assume you could trade like them also? Hmmm...... if you could follow precisely a system that had a backtested performance rating of 65% success to first target would you buy and trade that system? I have found that I work better with a 12oz hammer than a 14oz hammer, and that a black carbon pencil works better for me than a carpenters pencil. So, I think that finding the right tool set to fit your style (if you know it) is important. If you don't have a style or know what kind of trader you are (scalper, position, swing, etc) then you need to see if the tools you are considering is something you can adapt to. No tools help if you cannot work them. So, my straight answer is this. I have them, I use them. They fit me, and its a good fit. I make money trading, and the signals are clear, precise, and very accurate.

How do you know if the help you buy can help you? I have been to a lot of trading education rooms, bought and learned a lot of methods, strategies, approaches, styles, bought hundreds of tools, and lost many tens of thousands of dollars, over the last 8 years or more. I can list about 50 of them (kind of tells you how hard this all was for me), from the most popular to the obscure. Many have joined the ranks of the disappeared. Throughout that time I became aware of one enduring growing feeling. It could have been my fault being so eager and so new. It is hard to resist the claims you see out there of easy profits and fast success and "I made 100k last month trading my system and its yours for $7,500 down and $1000 a month for as many years as you are foolish enough to give it to me.", etc. etc. This is a tough feeling to get over; That at many places I bought into I was being cultivated, groomed, and in many cases, milked for all I was worth. A tell tale sign to know if the help you buy can help you is the manner is which you are spoken to by the trader moderator educator coach or guru you are deferring to as the definitive authority. Call it paranoia if you like, but what I have learned is that when help is genuinely helpful then the learning experience, to my mind, takes on the tone of "here is what I have done, and here are the mistakes I have made, and my 2 cents worth is that you don't have to make the same mistakes, but chances are that you will. So, I will charge you $x for my time, and I encourage you to get every pennies worth by learning the material I give you, asking questions, listening and watching and following the process I will guide you through". Now that is as honest as it can get, but at the same time its also helpful to hear "there is no extra charge". Unfortunately, very few newer traders can listen - as opposed to who are willing to listen. Even of those who can listen, there are fewer who can do. The saying goes 'where there is a will there is a way'. Many are willing but the fact is that most can not do. One of the key traits I have learned is that perseverance (damned pigheadedness refusal to quit) is as important as patience, dicipline and study. It is hard to admit that you are a failing trader. It's harder to admit it after 4 or more years of trading, and it's harder to admit it if you have not accepted full responsibility for your failure. There is so much free help and inexpensive help out there that succumbing to a high price tag for traders education is ludicrous. I think anything over $5k for the education (including indicators, methods instruction, and trade room attendance) is robbery. Many compare this to a college or a grad school education. But the fact is that in this business the drop-out failure rate is 90%! So comparing it to the cost of a college education is wrong. The drop out failure rate in college attendance is nowhere near this number. So of course, the fee's are high. The rewards are pretty much in the bag if you stick with it, and most do go on to rewarding successful careers. Not so in trading. The reality is that you are going to need your money to survive your first few years as a trader. The fact is that your education happens in the trenches - in the pit so to speak - out there risking, losing and winning. All the prep, all the education, all the coaching and guidance is put to the real test when you plunk your money down and take your first few stop outs. Then the harsh reality of discovering what kind of trader you really are starts to kick in. Do you really want this emotional agony? Or do you just want some reliable trade signals from someone who has already gone through the gauntlet and come out the other side? I recommend you find this out as quickly as possible. It will save you a world of hurt and loss. Now, if this is the case, then for my trade signal service I would charge you a college tuition! Hey, you take my trade signals and you are going to make some pretty good money. But, remember, can you take my signal? Ah ha! This is not so easy. I have found that many people who just want the signals can not take them. I think this is because they have still not made the choice to be a trader themselves or to just buy a trade signal service. It's like this. Take your car to the mechanic and have him fix it, or fix it yourself. It really is that basic. You trust your mechanic? Probably not. You trust your doctor? More than the mechanic for sure. So, make your choice, and pay the right kind of fee for the kind of choice you make. Should you decide to become a trader, which kind of trader education programs and rooms do you need to stay away from? Those that make you dependent. Those that give you too much information in too broad a stroke. Those that offer theory without practical hands on or visual show and tell. Those that give you too much all at once. Those that show you too much potential and suggest that this is easy if you just follow the steps. Those with too much slick, too much polish, too much hype and too many members. Interesting phenomena about those big traders education organizations. Lets see... 90% lose, 90% attend trade rooms for extended periods, 90% buy indicators and methods, 90% pay big dollars for education from big traders education organizations, ... do you get my drift here? Misery does love company, and if you find yourself in any environment where the crowd is, then leave. Those who make it in this are really the loners, the one's out there on the fringes doing their own thing, doing things their own way, at their own pace, using their own brains, making small steady gains, and being patient. If you can accept $50 a day 4 out of 5 days a week as a good day in the beginning, then you have a chance. Eventually after 4 or 5 years, many traders who succeeded came to this point and started to accept consistency over lucky strikes, steady gains with controlled losses over huge gains and huge losses. Many just got off the roller coaster and started to walk one step at a time. I think a good trade room and trade educator is one who hands you a book list, gives you a trading manual of the setups, some basic money management guidelines, a bit about the psychological journey, and then a few months watching him trade and offering you that time to pick his brain, ask questions, watch him lose, watch him win, hear him think, and just know that he is there on the other end doing nothing but watching his charts same as you. Then gives you his critique and review of your developing approach. You show him your trades, let him point out what was good, what was bad. Let him hold you accountable so you can learn how to critique yourself. You really need to trade along side with someone. You need to see it for real, in real time and listen to what really goes on when in a trade. It gets pretty boring, and you have to be able to see that really happening. You have to see someone else make their daily goal and walk away. You need to see what discipline is, what trading to a goal is, and all those things you hear and read about put into action on a scale you can grasp personally. We are not talking money fund management level trading here. We are talking small scale bread and butter make a good living trading for those 90% out there who are caught up in the hype of the big traders education organizations marketing and being shown too big a picture with too big an expectation too soon. It's in the small details about how you trade, what you think about while trading, what you can and can not do as a trader that is going to make the real difference. Ask yourself - do you think a big trade organization is really interested in turning out successful traders by the dozen every day? They make their money working the numbers. Yes you need the information, but you need hands on how to apply that information much more. It really is up to you if you are going to succeed at this or not. You have to read the books, you have to do the homework, you have to develop and test your plan, you have to deal with and resolve your emotions and reactions to loss and gain, you have to be patient and watch and analyze what the trade educator is doing while he trades in front of you, you have to understand his responses to your questions, and learn to ask the right questions and accept the answers even if they hurt. Your trade educator can only guide, coach, teach, show and tell. You have to do it all.

Mentally prepared .... accept those losses as part of the process. You need them to learn how to lose properly, quickly, and get ready for the winner. In addition, there is going to be more pain when you see the money go out of the account. So, try not to look at it as a daily process. It is the weekly and monthly that really counts. If you are positive at the end of the week, 3 out of 4, then you will be positive at the end of the month. Don't get too frustrated if your broker makes more in commission than you do in profits for the first few months. If you are positive...even 3% those first couple of months, it is still a good beginning. Concentrate on consistency, not profits. If your approach is sound (bigger winners than losers just to keep it simple) then consistentcy will make it work. As you get better it will become exponential as you add leverage. So, good luck! Watch out for the rest of us who are out to get your money:fight:

I have read the replies and while I tend to agree that undergoing a mentoring program can be a waste of money, I have to state that for some people it may come down to getting some real hands on 1:1 help and that is what a mentor MAY be able to do for you. Since you say you don't know a thing about trading and already want to consider a mentor and have less than 2k...well...my observation is that you are in too much of a rush, have not really read enough about the risks (2k is just not enough to even think about this as a start up capitol to fund your trading business) and have already made a slew of mistakes. So, save your pennies and start at the beginning. You do not know a thing about trading because you have not put in your own efforts to find out. Otherwise I doubt you would be asking for a mentor or even considering one. A mentor at this point is not going to be able to help you. You need to make the effort yourself. YOU need to make it your business to start doing reasearch, reading, study, and lots of practice before you give up and ask for someone to mentor you. I doubt any self respecting mentor would even consider taking you under his wing if you had at least not spent a year or two trying and making efforts on your own. If he does, then he is just out to get your money and probably does not even care what happens to you anyways. You make yourself the easy mark by thinking of a mentor so soon. There is so much free information out there, so many resources to acquire the fundamental knowledge you need, and so many free tools and free methods that spending money on this in the beginning should only be for the trade platform, data feed, and lots of reading material. Why not start with the very basics....as in what is technical anlysis. You may also want to start reading a bit about market auction theory, and about the tradeable instruments, types of equities, and lots of background history about notable traders of the past. On the flip side - make sure that the person who you ask for help has a verifiable track record, has mentored others successfully, and check all references. Finally, if you are a blank canvas, those first imprints are going to be real important. So, do you want them to be your own or are you willing to let someone else paint your future for you?

It's like a higher time frame, but in this case a bigger price bracket on the bar.

A 133 is too fast for me. I use a 6range/4range combo. I use a 10HMA. What matters is that you set up your charts and then spend some time looking at it and see if there are setups that are identifiable on a repeated basis that you can put some entry rules around and add some mm to it. Scalping does not imply fast. To me it implies precise entry to acquire first target 80% of the time.

Identifying chop is easier for me on a range chart. I use a 6 range chart and I draw boxes when I see the bars tick up and down in a sideways pattern. When at key areas using simple drawing tools like trend lines and boxes helps me time my entries.

How to avoid the chop. Previously mentioned you need to identify yourself as a trader...are you a trend trader, counter trend trader, etc. I agree wholeheartedly. However, what really is chop? Would you say a trading range of 5 points is chop? How about 3 points, or 2 points. When does it become chop for you? Is this chop? Here we have a 50MA and a pair of bollingers. For me, each tap of the upper bollinger and each tap of the lower bollinger is trade-able. It will work until it stops working. So here we have 6 trades. They all worked. The range was 908.25 to about 915. It was clearly range bound, but it doesn't look like chop to some. To me it was trade able because it was a clearly defined range of at least 3 points or more. So, chop is not necessarily a bad thing, except when its too narrow; or if you fail to recognize it soon enough to either take the first correct trade, or decide in time to just stay out of it altogether. One of the things I look at is a 1 min chart with a bollinger band set to 8. If price is not at least 3 points, then its chop and un-trade-able. Otherwise, a range of more than 3 points is trade-able if I have the right kind of tool set to handle the trade setups. I like a pair of bollinger's for this at 17,3and 13,2. Keep in mind that I am a scalper, so every trade gets to first target, and then the runner is gravy.

Yes. It really forces me to focus on the probability rating of my setups. So its just a matter of trusting what I already know.

My trading turned around when I stopped listening to everyone else. I stopped attending trade rooms. I stopped buying indicators. I stopped trying everyone else's methods. I stripped down my charts to a moving average, and 1 oscillator-filter. I concentrated on price patterns and the time and sales window. I drew trend lines. I watched the price bars. I came up with only 1 setup. I designed my trading plan around that 1 setup. I traded only that 1 setup and my trade plan. I accepted a 1:1. Then I started to add leverage, not more points per trade. My trading improved dramatically when I became publically accountable via my blog. In my own trading I also accepted the fact that I am a scalper. I stopped trying to hit the moat on every trade. I went for the first target, and the runners became gravy. I used more leverage as my account grew, and still do not rely on more than the first target to make my daily goals. My trading took a huge upward turn when I started to MOPM. I started helping other traders privately and publically. I do this because of the type of person I am. I no longer fight the fact that, for me. I need to be in a setting where I am publically accountable live and in real time. I use the pressure to focus and to prove to myself that the way I trade makes steady consistent money. If standing upside down in my birthday suit with the mouse between my butt cheeks would have worked, then I would still be doing that.

My 2 cents - try to find a trader who is willing to let you look over their shoulder, and even if there is a small fee, that would be worth its weight in gold. Don't buy into a system or method until you have had a chance to look it over and see if it fits your mindset. Unfortunetly, beginners have the hardest time with this, so I suggest that beginners SLOW DOWN and take your time and do a lot of sim test work before you plunk heavy duty money down on any system or method. The best method is still keen, slow, documented, careful observation of the market with just a few tools that give you the primaries - price, volume, momentum. Add some basic S&R and in IN TIME you can formulate your approach using careful documented conclusions. The key words are SLOW DOWN IN TIME. IF you do not have the time, then buying a method or system is just one option. The other option is to join a trade room and learn from the lead trader - again - it is a watch over his shoulder approach, but much less costly. A good trade room should not require you to purchase their indicators. Eventually, if you see the value in it, then you may decide to purchase them only after seeing them in action by someone well versed in their use in the live market.