zdo

:helloooo: This 'thing' on the whole planet is not going to end well... Mike Krieger Exposes The Three Card Monti | ZeroHedge

is trading a challenge worthy of you?

This thread still going? mslk, et al. some questions have the markets ‘become’ your parents? are you trying to trade 'methods that work' period or are you trying to trade 'methods that work for you' ? have you questioned the assumption that losing is frustrating and makes you sad and that winning is not frustrating and will lead to happiness ? have you considered that ironically profitable trades can also make you feel sad? /// go jump the ‘behavioral economics’ fence, bust on in the door. But make sure you keep in mind where the exits are (and be ready to shoulder crash through the wall) so you can get out if you need to :off topic: Speaking of ‘remembering’, bobc if you’re around, you asked about a ‘solution’. The following is not a solution, but it is where a solution will ultimately emanate from... Remembering to Remember | ZeroHedge “Start Afresh – Hootless” mslk, how do you start afresh? how do you get hootless? :missy:

this is getting scary - "...slightly off topic" ??? I was thinking 'off topic' was an understatement... so yes, johnw, please start over. Maybe post some charts of when you first noticed this to illustrate - even if they're now 'dated'. thx

...continuing... The second Best Way to Determine When the Market is Really Trending (up) is to take a (long) position. The second Best Way to Determine When the Market is Really Trending (dn) is to take a (short) position. :duh smilee that's not doh concussining his forehead: "When you get to the fork in the road, take it" Yogi B

for bobc - rephrasing “The VERY Best Way…” Shorting a ( possible) uptrend is a slightly better way of determining when the market is trending than is going long in a (possible) uptrend (and vice versa for possible dn trends)… better because of increased internal ‘sensitivity’ :the wry smilee hasn’t been invented for this one yet either: re: “and can without any hesitation tell you he has determined without any doubt at all when it is still in an uptrend” by the same token, that’s also how I started getting long PM’s pre 2000… and added to the positions many times during subsequent “downtrends” over the years. and recently lifted PM hedges, especially in Silver … …learning to keep it simple. In trend trading – which I’m not very good at (and fortunately don’t have to be) – keeping it simple is simple. With trend trading, the outliers literally ARE the edge! “The markets are always trending”. … most often they are trending sideways :jaded: :smilee:

The VERY Best Way to Determine When the Market is Really Trending (up) is to take a (short) position. The VERY Best Way to Determine When the Market is Really Trending (dn) is to take a (long) position. Mischievous maybe, but no riddles. Take it literally (and I should preface my remarks with this: In no way am I demeaning any of the methods or any of the posters above. Seriously - I appreciate their contributions) One up (or dn) bar, one outside close, etc. IS a trend. It may last only this or a couple more bars or it may last for years - literally. So re "determining" - Even if you know where all the “big orders” are, etc. you still can’t know when more and /or even bigger countervailing orders are coming, etc…. same with SR etc., same with ALL the tricks for “finding” trend, etc.. (and, yes, some methods are better than others ...) And the one bar "trend" is as ‘strong’ a trend, in each moment, ( ie now ), as is a trend that has 5 higher high and higher low ( or vice versa for dn) swings behind it - because each one of these trends, the one bar ‘trend’ and the ‘established’ ‘trend’, could end on the very next tick. From this moment of needing to determine when the market is really trending, you could do further analysis, projections, calculate targets and zones, apply multi methods, etc. to “Determine When the Market is Really Trending” or if it is apparently in an uptrend, just short it :rofl: and find out / "Determine When" for sure :haha: Just ask zdo. He’s been shorting the yen for over 18 months now and can without any hesitation tell you he has determined without any doubt at all it is still in an uptrend. ZERO DOUBT! (… and also no doubt that this particular trend could end tomorrow ) yogi said it best “when you get to the fork in the road, take it”

The Best Way to Determine When the Market is Really Trending (up) is to take a (short) position. The Best Way to Determine When the Market is Really Trending (dn) is to take a (long) position. :smilie for that not invented yet:

Any chance you would open a thread and show why you don't really need it before you discover the one and only definition of a trend?

The driver in a car following an 18 wheeler on the interstate notices it is drifting and veering oddly but remains concerned and fixated on a partially attached tattered Italian mudflap that is flapping more and more. Meanwhile, the truck is supposed to have 216 lug nuts all torqued to spec – but only 18 total lug nuts are still on all of the wheels of the truck. Misplaced concern? Chinese TV Host And Economist Says Regime Nearly Bankrupt - BlackListedNews.com

charles hugh smith-The World Is Drowning in Debt, and Europe Laces On Concrete Boots What!? Putting an esteemed economist in charge won't help??? :shock: What!? "ditto in China" They're 'fiat' too?? Policy adjustments won't help??? :doh: :crap:

Steve46. I understand, but I will not be going very far away from Jungian in my answers. Hopefully someone else can answer your questions in the terms you need. I currently do not have syscholgical or emotional issues with seeing setups more clearly, or quickly or in managing risk / cutting losses. In fact, during one of the exercises the other night to get some sort of emotional rise going I started clicking in at the market until I had a position much larger than regular size on to get just a little twang of ‘sht, if this were to break against me fast I’m going to lose some bucks “ It was the only way I could ‘conjure’ up some fear to really test the efficacy and get anything out of the protocol we were practicing. Back to your questions, re “Are you more confident when you enter a trade?” Yes, incrementally more - please see below. In summary, I will say if it can help with some of my more indescribable, nebulous 'fears' and patterns, it should certainly be helpful with the issues you listed - providing it is consistently applied until some ‘unconscious competency’ is attained / new neural pathways laid down. I appreciate you not judging. MarketTyping is at the core of my trading approach and that guides the weighting of portfolios of systems. I need to be able to execute multiple simple systems and manage many positions simultaneously, because none of the systems go to zero weight often or for very long. For varying reasons across the years, I continue to choose not to delegate this work. It presents flexibility, energy, and endurance challenges, in addition to ( and, with experience, "in addition to" has transitioned to in contrast to ) the more typical setup ambiguity and “should I stay in or exit” conflicts, etc. single system/edge traders are subject to. My metrics of success are literally how many ticks I take from the number of ticks available. Needless to say, with that criteria, there’s always plenty of room for improvement… and for frustration, when I don’t come at it mindfully. btw, re “uncertainty”. For my (and many other) approaches, “sideline” is not an option. Short of walking out the door, the only sideline for me is to go up ‘timeframe’ - but that’s not fun usually. In reality, setups that repeat over and over again do not have the same outcomes over and over. Furthermore, I long ago gave up on waiting for ‘certainty’ setups and confirmations, etc. Fuzzy, ambiguous setups do just fine. That old “when in doubt, stay out” truism is good for the process of moving from the low pareto into the middle pareto, but then must be dropped as one progresses into the upper pareti. Going to sidelines when uncertain is a perfect example of “organized to avoid” (see sessions 1 and 3 of the training). Gosu, do you think you said anything above in post 109 that really contrasts or even significantly disagrees with the “training”? And, participants of the course, do you see his “friends’ in action and/or in inaction? It shows up in ALL our posts… <flip through x number of pages> … more not going very far away from ‘Jungian’ in my answers… In fact, instead of “4 new best ‘friends’”, I’ve committed to developing 12 new‘best’ friends… <flip over a couple more pages> :haha: …One of these friends is trickster. Few in the “stay in the analytical mind and follow your rules with discipline” crowd will see its value in the markets and be joining me, to say the least … In some ways, a more fully integrated trickster is sort of the healing of the (more shadowy) self saboteur… And btw, I should mention trickster activity is not for applying everyday … don’t know if ya’ll have read many trickster myths, but wily coyote is not the only one who gets in some real messes and gets his parts tangled or mangled … … summing up, in addition to their randomlike behaviors, markets, at certain times, are instruments of trickery. A more fully developed (than wily was for sure) trickster both tricks AND is hard to trick... <skip over a few more pages> Speaking of friends… was also a little bit surprised that Rande’s stage seemed so devoid of feminine ‘figures’… most likely time and scope limitations… and it just dawned on me that most of the posters herein really don't understand clearly what Rande's market really is. … Reading Rande’s book and then participating in the webinar revealed no really previously unconcieved (made up a word) methods. But contact with him, as a teacher, has brought forth ways to practice mindfulness at my trade station. In other settings I am proficient in mindfulness of body and functional in mindfulness of thoughts. But at my trade station, I have only been functional in mindfulness of body, while mindfulness of thoughts has remained woefully underdeveloped and “mindful-less”. A few will understand this – it was not so much new methods that are helping with that mindfulness as it is ‘presence’… <thumb to near the end> With “how close to your potential do you think you trade ... or, to put it another way 'how close to your potential do you think you live ”, johnw is getting at the essence of what this thread is really about for me and what the course is helping me with. My challenge question for the last few months has been literally “what am I like at my best – in this moment?” I’m in ‘momentum’ if I look back on a challenge or a whole day and see I remembered to genuinely ask and answer/do it multiple times. It creates what Barbara L. Fredrickson calls Broaden-and-Build. (…and , hopefully, when I review and recollect forgetting to ask it, I use that to focus on the discrepancies between what is and what I’m creating – instead of getting all disappointed and self judgy ) <warning: this part is coming from way outside the kindle and the training!> Let’s go WAY out of scope for a moment! Alas, the skills taught and the capacities evoked in this training, the swinging to or developing or uncovering strengths to ‘replace’ weaknesses or undeveloped tendencies is only a really excellent consolation prize Calling forth and making available these ‘friends’ (to keep the terms simple ) - is actually still on stuck on a polarity. Whether one moves from the less effective ways of interfacing with the markets, etc. to the more effective ways (or vice versa); and whether one moves by choice or only apparent choice concealing actual natural cycling between, the reality is – one is still stuck in polarity. With all the benefits of such progress and maturation, one is still stuck in previous ‘decisions’, not really free at deep decision levels (not using the word ‘decision’ by common usage, btw. , instead using it more along the lines of preconscious, existential decisions and perennial and certain far eastern philosophies, etc). Beyond sliding between the extremes on a pole or struggling to stay in one (happy, ‘together’) place on a polarity is the challenge of true neutralization of polarities. <stream, shut off now. Thanks mkts for a congestion long enough for me to write this. Hit button>

Rande, rather than kill the thread I had planned to just open it up to everyone - including the previously uninvited - to, if nothing else, 'make some lemonade' Steve46, good idea. brief immediate impressions - I'm grateful he is in this field and am glad that he is bringing forward what has unfolded from his work in finding his own self compatible models for 'change and growth' and what is being made available to traders in particular from his previous training, study, and work with other populations. What I have applied so far has had immediate benefits, but the long term benefit is in laying down new patterns - which takes time and work. It will take some time for me to bring my own timing, etc to the sequences of the major practices he taught. For example, it seemed like the breaths were coming too fast and not frequent enough per 'section'...etc Also, his verbally 'guided' sessions understandably emphasized common issues like 'pulling the trigger' , etc. I personally have not had issues with pulling the trigger for many years, so the 'ramp up' content was, for me, quite distracting to the process I was trying to do and fear contents I was trying to work with. This just means that rather than being able to utilize the tapes directly, I will need to extract the essence of the protocols and create my own scripts and timing... note though that any and all participants would ultimately have to make adaptations on their own - not just me. It's part of the work. A coach or teacher in any field can teach you what to do and focus on, but it's always up to the individual to go out and really learn / ingrain it. I invite all the participants to come on with some 'testimmonial' of their experiences too (+ or -) ... gotta go...more later... you all have a great weekend

Insert amount and place your trade Trade in 3 simple steps Is is really Washington's blog ?? Major Wars and Suppression of American Freedoms Planned BEFORE 9/11

I don’t really understand how organizations can utilize the test. I don’t really think the typical HR bozo would be able to use it to build teams or even screen out ‘incompatibles’. Using it for ‘categorization’ may be misguided and naïve. re questions about the evidence: In the early 80’s, I had access to the test through a friend in the field and learned how to score any dang type I wanted to be… it didn’t make me any more of a sentient being… Also, my wife tells me that the percentage of those scoring INT_ is skewed pretty low (~10%) and those who are INT_’s also score significantly high on intelligence tests… something’s fishy at least. Raises more questions than answers… I personally tend to just ignore all that crap about the test and use it and similar measures for insight into my particular current strengths and blind spots.. The base Jungian theory is that each of us starts with tendencies (not exclusive) in one of the Jungian ‘types’… some of the more esoteric work in this field, (the juicy stuff, imo) has us starting in one ‘category’ and our potential across a lifetime is the development of a awareness of, competency in, and ultimately a synergistic integration of all the types that were recessive at the start. Jung called it “individuation”. Jung theorized four distinct ways of ‘metabolizing’ experience. In real life, out and about, they are all actually operational simultaneously… but mostly below the level of awareness, as are most life processes… we each develop (or genetically unfold?) a tendency to habitually go to the well on one or two of them and ignore the others. The life challenge is to integrate all of these types, etc. I’m no expert but the archetypes are basically common human experiences along developmental lines mostly. Someone mentions orphan and unless you’re seriously damaged you can relate to it – it’s a child who has been abandoned and feels it. Someone mentions puer. You may not be able to get real close to it but you can still somehow relate to and understand some guy who is endlessly traveling, seeking, never quite settling down, etc.. We can relate to, via “archetypes”, all the varieties of being and then not being a virgin… or a lover... etc etc etc. Some archetypes we can relate to closely, even though you have never 'acted them out'. Other archetypes we will be as frickn blind as a bat to – and often in judgement, declare closure and can hardly even concede the existence of such human experiences. As best I can tell, Rande is focusing more on the emotional components of each of these common (developmental) 'attractors' I prefer resistance to closure and getting as much as I can from these 'fringes' of our understanding. Looking back, I'm seeing archetypal areas where I need to 'retrace' and try a do over... with even less thinking type activity... etc. This whole framework is just a tool. Calling someone's competency and intentions into question because they can work within a framework, "scientific" or not, is ... to put it nicely, not very inclusive... the critics herein act as if they've suddenly discovered a unique way we may be fooling ourselves - when it may just be a way to prevent fooling ourselves... hm "I love fool's experiments. I'm always making them." C.Darwin

errata: Kill Rande should have read Rande Must Die right genre, wrong movie ...

bobc, :rofl: Thanks for giving me some time on the ‘solution’… right now I prefer howling at the full moon…and from the looks of it, I’m not the only one lunating… re “Where are we in the business cycle?” That’s not really relevant at this point. hot off the press This is No Cyclical Recession 15 Statistics Which Prove That The U.S. Economy Is In Much Worse Shape Than Most Americans Think PS re the OP Game Over? Reuters Says Germany, France Exploring Idea Of Core Euro Zone, End Of Existing Structure | ZeroHedge http://www.zerohedge.com/news/did-merkel-just-usher-deustche-mark References: are from lousy, unreliable news feeds of course

For the general audience, I’ll loosely answer those questions. “…can a person extract from the markets without self-awareness?” Of course. But is a Tom Baldwin, for a ready example, more “self aware” than say a Paul Tutor Jones ? Yes. Both excel. We’re not comparing failures to successes here.. we’re talking about incrementally building on strengths (an important distinction for all the ‘critics’ out there and ‘in here’ btw) And which one made more money, more quickly, directly from trading? Tom. The ‘tom baldwin’ has an slightly more together/integrated sitting “inner counsel” of players…in this particular framework It’s not about “knows all about orphans…” etc. … ( who knows, maybe you were using the ‘knows’ word like or not like someone else…) but however he’s using it, readers – “knows” is a trap! This work is not a be all to end all. To me it is, in some ways, simply about adding more effective heuristic sets. Charles Munger, koolaid stirrer for Warren Buffett, has mastered 80+ of these ‘heuristic models’ for himself. According to Buffett, he has “the best thirty second mind in the world. He goes from A to Z in one move. He sees the essence… ” Emotion is part and parcel of every thought, memory, neural activity… etc. It is not a side effect or minor element. It is a “data source that requires non standard ways of learning” to utilize properly and consistently – to wax lapdog for Denise Shull for a moment... Unfortunately for them, frustrated losers coincidently drop out of this kind of work about the time they get started. gosu, so far you are like some dude who shows up at a football practice standing on the sidelines yelling criticisms at the coaches… which is kind of sad because you are most likely the “smartest guy in the class”. so re: “Thanks for your suggestion to start another thread, but I'm not here to attract an audience and I don't care enough about what's going on here to do that.” I’ve gotten on you about this before – if you don’t really care, then shut up. Serve yourself elsewhere…work on your own projected weaknesses elsewhere… go from C(onstant) to C(riticism) elsewhere...

I keep harping on this because my impression is that most are not quite getting it – Germany has conquered Europe. They are running into the same kinds of problems keeping an empire (together) that all other empires (past, present, and future) have… The U.S. has also been conquered – from within. Denial phase is still extreme, including right here on this forum… Big lies are the most effective lies… Comparing the mess in Europe to the coming tragedy in the U.S. – The European issues will ultimately look like a pimple …on a full blown ebola victim… “…imposes all it's own rules and practises on it. Surprise, surprise the company then becomes unprofitable.”

Italian numbers dwarf the scale of Greece issues and fwiw, I personally think Italy is ‘culturally’ more predisposed to default than is Greece ECB will find a way to ‘counterfiat' - (even though they aren’t supposed to)... so Italy may not be 'next' for sure.... Marc Faber: They Can Postpone the Endgame For Five or Ten Years .. btw, the current EUR rally is not keeping up with the US index rally like usual ??? C’mon fly little Euro. http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/market-analysis/9749-fx-eurotrash.html … http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/market-analysis/9749-fx-eurotrash-6.html Fly! …so I can short you some more...

Engimatics, re “I'm not at a point portfolio-wise where I feel I can pass up the chance to lock automatic ones” etc... Two thoughts (purchased for myself with much pain and costs and time)– 1) it’s system specific are you ready to really to embrace “it’s system specific” for real?… really replacing “where I can feel…” and “like to be able to stomach dips better”, etc., to really test and find your odds and near optimal sizing and trade close to them regardless of how it ‘feels’, to use ‘feels’ in a different way - to develop/find new systems that fit instead of trying to get the current system to fit to your ‘feels’ ie “take profits quickly” and “hitting modest profit goals on a daily basis just playing the first pop on the setup I trade” is just the only way some systems ‘work’. Your system may or may not be that way. Find out! Then, if you know the odds and still have conflicts executing then it’s time to move to a different system AND do some trading syschology work. 2) ...any change to any parameter of a system, entry, exits, sizing, scaling, etc. is NOT a tweak or adjustment! It is a whole new system! This is another of those thoughts that is easy to ‘get it’ cognitively; but practically, can take forever for it really sink in deeply and really be implemented… ... keeping your current great entry methods and tweaking the exits and thinking you are still trading the same system would be an example of this... WHOLE NEW system ...different resultant risk levels, different optimal scaling, different optimal sizing... WHOLE new system I tell you gotta go… hth… all the best… zdo

gosu, re your questions - First, please explain to us how you are using your term “self - awareness”. Yours’ is the first usage of that term in this thread. I don’t think Rande has used it much on TL except in one article a while back. What do you mean by “self-awareness” ? thanks. zdo

gosu, Please start a separate Kill Rande thread for that sht. It would probably have a larger audience than this one. I’ll try to make some time to come over and “shill”… thx zdo

johnw, “'gonna have to call bs on that one' is an assessment” is also an assessment That ‘call bs’ was the first judgement of my whole life Also the first time ‘my’ ego was ever active :missy: … “Lead me not into temptation” - I can find it myself …speaking of ego [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBUgFRdoFYo&feature=related]How and when to separate oneself from the ego - YouTube[/ame] Mentions Krishnamurti ‘s You Are The World book. Seriously - calling that 'bs' was really just petty parsing. In my current beliefs, all Krishnamurti described in that article was still at the level of brain and what I call ‘first body’ … was economically pointing out that nothing he discussed had really risen to the level of ‘Mind’ yet for me… Many thanks for your contirbutions. zdo ps admin, is there a way to post a utube link that just puts up the hyperlink text and doesn' show the youtube picture ready to run? thx

johnw ... on the subject of judgements, in my case Krishnamurti would be "preaching to the choir" ... Related to the thread (and Rande can correct me if I'm off (or explain why) ) ... seems he uses the term 'assessments' instead of 'judgements' in the practical application work of the course...