zdo

hm… India… tangentially related … India Joins Asian Dollar Exclusion Zone -- Will Transact With Iran In Rupees - BlackListedNews.com Governments Will Allow Much, Much Higher Gold Prices Soon! Here

Thank you JoshDance Readers, be careful of crowds that do not differentiate btwn real trend following and fake trend following... :bakontopic: OP, If you have to ask... (OP, this may seem like a flippant, insincere reply. It's not... it is not necessary, although most still do, for a beginner to join the large loser crowd as part of your initiation!) Also, peeps, if you have to sim... (Again - although most do, it is NOT a necessity for a beginner to join the large loser crowd as part of your initiation!)

re "...if a psychologist has helped a trader..." In first name alphabetical order… personally, I know traders who were helped by Ari Kiev. (I think he’s a retired MD but not a shrink?) by Brett Steenbarger (psychologist for sure, major portion of his practice dedicated to traders?) by Denise Shull. (‘psychological’ researcher turned trader turned trading ‘sychologist’ ?) by Doug Hirschhorn. (Athlete turned psychologist plus trading psychologist ?) by Jake Bernstein (psychotherapist turned trader?). by Kenneth Reid (psychotherapist and trader?) by Mark Douglas (trader turned self educated psychotherapist?). by Rande Howell. (advertising exec turned counselor, portion of his practice dedicated to traders?) by Robin Dayne, for pete’s sake. (trader turned ‘coach’?) I don’t know any traders who were helped by Ruth Roosevelt… but (see below) she no doubt has really helped a few … by Van Tharpe. (psychologist turned trading psychologist?) … and I also know (for sure with most of them) that their ‘ultimate success rates’ are very low. I put ? mark beside all the ‘bio’s’ Also, not all of the above are ‘psychologists’ btw. But, after all these attacks, we’re also not really talking about psychology anyway! :crap: My peers, I’ve posted this multiple times now – the odds of a trader finding the ‘right’ ‘therapist’ for him are very very very low. It’s not the credentials or qualifications or ‘magic’ of the therapist that matters. It’s not the levels of commitment, readiness to change, etc. the therapand brings. Those things do factor in somewhat – but the pivot, the crux is on the MATCH btwn therapist and therapand… and the odds are low for good matches with ‘normals’ and even much lower for good matches btwn a therapist and a trader! Just some of the limits – 95% of therapists bring unconscious biases that immediately disqualifies them from ever really helping traders. Very few of the therapists who are free of those biases realize they are qualified. Very few traders really will understand what they need to work on with a therapist. Fewer will go through the discomforts and ‘risks’ necessary to get benefit. I can understand the attacks on ‘psychologists’ herein. But for me it’s not them. It’s the extremely low likelihood of finding an adequate match !

Progress Report: Now that I ‘know’ or at least have developed sufficient awareness of how the ‘players’ / factors (previously and) currently operate within me (along with hopefully adequate awareness of the accompanying emotional ‘symphony’), I am now beginning to implement the essence of the week 3 session. It brings a certain set of challenges to me individually, and I can imagine and empathize how it could possibly bring many varied challenges to others during this part of the process. ... "passion and gradualness" pavlov

jtrader500, Would you please open your own separate thread? I have some questions. Thx. Have a great weekend all. zdo

2. ie more on Rande (and other ‘professionals’s’) depth of real trading experience … Gosu (in post 137) mentions “no separation”. I couldn’t agree with that part more! ( I’ve previously posted about the ‘up the middle’ approach where every advance in method is signal to do ‘inner’ work and viceversa., etc) Yet, where ‘helpers’ are involved, I’ve seen a phenomenon and I’ve experienced it too (both coming and going) ---> ! The further a ‘teacher’ takes a ‘student’ away from the perceptual advantages and methods that are true to the ‘student’s own nature, the more “separation” is created! I mentor one experienced trader at a time and we have plenty to deal with without discussing edge(s). I have completed several relationships now with only an inkling of what the other’s edge(s) are all about! But, it’s a personal battle with me and almost every session there are ‘temptation windows’ where part of me is itching to insert edge advice (why don’t you look at ____ ?! or SEE _____ ?!!!!, etc) or dilute the charge with listening to him chatter about and us 'work' on his edge(s). So, in Rande’s case (and most other ‘professional ____’s), if he were significantly experienced at trading, it could also bring bias for his method(s) to each new relationship. It could subtly infect his gestalt of the client and corrupt his work with him. So far, in my experience of Rande’s approach, I’ve found that he teaches various protocols that the student must apply on his own and then offers progressively more depth and individual permutations the further the student goes with him. The work is primarily about the trader that’s comes in front of the tradestation and what he brings to the challenges of trading. His work is not directly about the mkts ‘stream’, reactions, or behaviors, etc. So, I’ll reiterate - if he could keep the development part very compartmentalized in his work with a client, then sufficiently extensive experience at trading would be conducive to building rapport with prospects. But in the actual work, his real trading experience is probably better left as a ‘null’. ps Now that we apparently have a lull in the 'destructions' ... from previous posts That was a serious question

1. Again - let's all be careful of the "if I don't experience it, it doesn't exist and cannot be experienced by anyone" bias. Some traders are more 'mammilian' than others. ie that's how some can benefit from Rande's and other trading coaches' types of protocols, while it's useless "tripe" to others... 2. re Rande's experience. I'm not judgemental about it. Some are. I'm sticking with my original thoughts on the matter... Rande would have much higher and easier rapport with 'us' if he did have obvious experience. ...Meanwhile, many, if not most, don't understand what he does grasp about trading Who knows? Maybe he does have experience and just doesn't disclose it... if he wants, I would be happy to show him low exposure ways of getting experience. 3. From the article (and from my post 130) What does "redevelop it" mean? It was a serious question. Way back in this thread I mentioned we are not talking about 'psychology' or 'trader psychology'. Gosu's and others' recent posts plus http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-psychology/11710-wrestling-emotions-capacity-change.html (wonder why negoc8r didn't just join in over here ? :rofl: ) all go directly to the heart of the same - just from different perspectives. What does "redevelop it" mean?

lazy, sloppy entries, avg price ~54.28 (horizontal cursor line on (hard to see) attachment) and a very ugly spread but ka ching on the daily interest payments - for over a month now

Hey peeps the term 'mammilian brain' is acceptable, but 'monkey brain' is offensive and hurtful For one, I doubt there are very many monkeys on this planet that want to short the ndx's as much as I do right now... and the ones that do would probably have as much patience as most humans about timing it, and could remain remain more detached from either 'positive' or 'negative' results in the 'trees' than most humans, and could almost certainly recover from a serious lost faster than most humans... ... we're getting too PC to be able to compare emotional vulnerabilities btwn each other / within the humans ? ... so we now have to go out and compare and dis the monkeys ? /// From the article What does "redevelop it" mean?

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From the article The message you have entered is far too short... please add more bullsht

After all that's been said, at this point in this thread I can honestly say I wish Rande's article really was "Psychological" But it's not, it's 'baptist budhism' from the article

from a friend ‘out there’ – Mitsubishi, during these years, be careful what you let ‘crystallize’ in this stage of your life… wishing you all the best. zdo

It’s system dependent. Without knowing either we can be pretty sure that the whole of PoP’s system is quite different from the “Stay in the trade until your target is reached” trader’s system. Very loosely, (and without really knowing ),it’s likely the first (PoP’s) guidance on exits is for ‘surprise side’ trades while the second guidance is about ‘surprise side trades NOT!’, etc etc. Be careful of authors who, via ‘ass umptions’,etc., don’t bother to specify what the whole system is that justifies the exit criteria they are expousing. It does a huge disservice to many, if not all, readers. Moving on ... re: “Does passage of time alone constitute a reason that an entry would no longer be valid?” Again, it’s system specific! I have ‘breakout’ oriented systems where the passage of time alone literally strengthens a reason that an entry would be valid… and I have ‘reversion' based systems where the passage of time alone does constitute a reason that an entry would no longer be valid… we always have to ask 'does this exit advice align with the essence of my whole system?' hth

This thread certainly has taken the blunders off the trading mind! Thanks all. Great job. Have a wonderful weekend. If a psychologist "showed up at my door", I'd hire her on the spot... she's also a psychic...

Johnw “desire” Rande Howell “manage feelings” Mitsubishi just do it, etc... MightyMouse “think” hep me geezus Posters named and labeled for illustrative purposes only! I’m not really restrictiing or pigeon holing any of the individuals named to just those things… but What would it take for us to discuss how it is all of the above and more?

.. continuing with more how about this? a great mentor needs to fully understand the specific 'game' a great coach doesn't need to know anything at all about the specific 'game' ...back on topic From the article "...beliefs that stay beneath the radar of their awareness... Traders avoid dealing with these hidden self-limiting beliefs because they are uncomfortable to acknowledge..." zdo, UUC

Vienna Does this knock any holes in the JH’s original (volume and container) tenets? If not, how not? Many thanks.. (and also thank you very much for … yesterday) zdo

Mitsubishi, You don’t have to be a trader to be fascinated with and / or need to understand how the humans typically deal with an environment that presents continuous uncertainty. You don’t have to be a psychologist either. We become more proficient in an arena as we raise our awareness. We become more proficient in an arena that we hone and leverage our focus … We become more proficient in what we “measure”… Bringing a "threat orientation" instead of an "opportunity orientation" diminishes our chances of doing any of the above. Rande simply offers some ways to destroy some 'threat' patterns and create some 'opportunity' patterns. His is a niche. In fact, all trading vendors, even the ones who believe they have the solution for everyone, only have a tiny niche ...and only a tiny 'success' rate too. After all they are dealing with ... traders :doh: All the best, zdo

Mitsubishi, …I haven’t got much use for ‘trading psychologists’ either… too focused on pathology, what’s wrong, etc…“We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe.” – Johann Wolfgang von Goethe …so, on to ‘trading sychology’ ... focused on strengths, what is working, etc - I know what you're thinking, punk. Did I light up 7 chakras or was it only 6? Now to tell you the truth I forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this is a leveraged contract, the most powerful small scale debt instrument in the world and will blow your account clean up, you've gotta ask yourself a question: 'What's my inner truth?' Well? What is it punk? ...We truly have a Universe within … zdo

:haha: "or had taken up cross dressing" last time I tried cross dressing I was five years old and it was with a girl and my mother's bra's... just a few minutes later I got my identities straightened out again and we played doctor re: I'm curious, what percentage of traders consistently "act from a(n) impartial state of mind because they were lucky to be born into this circumstance"? I know a bunch who are able to make it look that way at a persona level, but only one or two who really seem to have it naturally. Even ~80 % of the 'market wizards' didn't. M. Douglas may have encountered someone else by now, but for years and years he reported he had only met one client so far who was thoroughly ready to operate like this out the gate... Neither of these are basis for good stats... wonder what the real percentages are? Is it possible theres a three way split those who are "lucky" those who are aren't "lucky" but can do something about it those who are aren't "lucky" and can't do something about it (yet) ???

Denise... Denise??? :missy:

Haven’t been reporting because I took a long holiday… just now getting back into the swing … Progress Report: Still implementing Session 2 – mindfulness Bringing into awareness dimply what IS - some in terms of insights into the archetypal framework presented in the classes and some in an inner framework that uses no language / verbiage. Watching the pre-existing level s of the (archetypical) energies, identities, etc of those archetypes identified in the course as strengths to be brought to the fore, etc. … Also took the PMAI. Nothing really surprising there. Would also be interested in what the others are doing with this... thx

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This topic brings back memories… the last real ‘job’ I had was running a brokerage and I was trying so hard to fit in adequate, or even barebones, personal trading time and couldn’t… sold my stake and started managing money… and again I was trying so hard to fit in adequate personal trading time (for income)… and couldn’t. So I quit all my ‘jobs’ and traded full time … working out my own interpolation of the Omega Strategy* - pretty clearly demarcating the time and action spent on ‘daytrading’ for income and ‘trading’ for building wealth… and some of that ‘trading’ did include ventures into property development which went ok but were not fun and were ultimately not liquid and fast enough for me. Don Bright mentioned “start your trading career one step at a time” to which I would reply “but don’t lollygag around too long” - especially if you are TOTALLY COMMITTED to trading and everything else is frustrating… * Amazon.com: The Omega Strategy (9780446326346): William Montapert: Books http://www.biblio.com/9780884961871\ The omega strategy : how you can retire rich by 1986 by William David Montapert (Used, New, Out-of-Print) - Alibris btw, I don’t remember the exact strategies presented in that book… I doubt I even read the whole thing… in case you don’t want to buy the book, the essence is something he got from his ‘Swiss’ mentors – split your workweek, roughly half into producing to cover living expenses, etc and half into producing and building capital / wealth. PS… somewhat related to running things in a way as if you are already successful – the most important lesson I ever learned was to capitalize and size the trades in each account to where risk of ruin is so-o-o miniscule it’s completely negligible, where no one trade or even a series of bad trades matters in the slightest. That is freedom… freedom to even fvck up and still be ok, to still stay focused on what’s working, etc… No one taught me this directly, but I will be eternally grateful to the traders who hinted at less extreme versions and to the one ‘really rich guy’ who unknowingly modeled these concepts for me… … and, even though the huge majority of them come in as futures index, financial, and or energy traders, this is why I point all sub 6 figure accounts I mentor towards Oanda for at least 6 months - until they get their ‘identities’ (and physical, behavioral, and passion issues) straightened out … and I recommend the same for all TL noobies who are starting out with sub 25k accounts ... and also, noobies and beyond, be careful to really question that word "professional" - it's a subtle trap