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OP it’s system dependent. If you ask a question like this without providing context all you’re really going to accomplish is to trigger general / BS answers. Hopefully you won’t latch onto one of them as confirmation of what you have already pre consciously ‘chosen’. By now, you should have a feel through historical testing through various regimes about how robust your system is... A system’s ‘dependency stats’ is a good starting place for whether or not you should continue trading the same on through a drawdown. From that, the W/L hit rate can also be a factor... Generally speaking, for any system, you need more than one neg run of up to seven consecutive losses to start questioning whether the edge has been ‘taken away’ ... ...and a glatial recovery out of drawdown can be more damaging to your progress than the initial experience of the drawdown - and that is an all too common result of playing the 'cut back' game you're considering...:helloooo: Also, fwiw, some systems need to be dynamically sizing all the time...

Rande, Amplifying on: “discipline (Ruler), impartiality (Sage), courage (Warrior), and patience (Caregiver). Notice the link between emotional state and archetype” and my comment about “just how disparate my pre existing gestalt of the arch’s are from Rande’s (and his students that I have contact with.)” I do notice and experience the links btwn emotional state and archetype, but my pre-existing images of those arch’s you mentioned are not so internally and centrally associated with the emotional states you have them paired with. Another potential way of saying it is - while the listed emotional states do have a place at my tradestation, in my story those figures you have paired with them do not have so much of a place at my tradestation. Expanding on this, long ago I gave trying to be impartial / non biased… ie I am not a fkn sage :doh: I am biased as hell and instead of working to banish it (like we're told to do by the mainstream trading education media), I settled on learning to use and leverage it. Example: Under certain conditions (and only under certain conditions – very important!!), from my (largely unconscious) biases, I project 3 maps of possible outcomes onto an objectively determined / non biased timeperiod. (To clarify for the traders where the bias is permissible and where it is not -if the time projections are wrong, I am not wrong, a model is wrong …but, if the projections are wrong, I am wrong.) Anyway, to most they look like EW ‘favored count’ projections, but aren’t EW based... and they are only one example of multiple places where I have surrendered to the impossibility of being ‘impartial’… getting back to the arch, a Sage may be 'impartial', but my personal imago of sage goes far far beyond impartial and even if I were able to bring forth up into active awareness my individual sage composite, it doesn’t seem to have much place at my tradestation… I could give same kind of comparisons about discipline too… to keep it brief – Ruler has limited place at my workstation because I have discovered over the years that if I have to apply ‘discipline’ more than once or twice a month something is seriously wrong with the match between me and my edge(s). Similar contra indications show up in my ‘story’ for courage and compassion too… Another type of disparity – re: your mention of creator and pairing it with intuition… for one - there’s intuition, as it is commonly used, and then there’s Intuition …. and while Intuition may be central in creation, my ‘inner creator’ is definitely not coming from an Intuitive or an intuitive ‘emotional state’ …. ie work in creative tension quickly and discretely moves the experience away from either of those ‘intuitives’. I made these comments and clarifications to report my own individual experieces with the course... not to impune it. All that said --- even as a ‘deviant’ student, I find great value in working through the progression you introduced in the course. Your students I have been introduced to who are more naturally suited to it are definitely getting much more value… and the progression would open a whole new world to the many noobs who find themselves driven in almost total emphasis on discovery of effective process… To clarify the “would…‘stream of content’ be different? What would it sound like?” question. If we could transcribe the ‘self talk’ of one of your proficient students who has these archetypes correctly lined up, callable, and operational and transcribe my ‘self talk’ where your version of Ruler and Sage are not so ‘alive’ - how wouild they be diffeent? If we could transcribe my current ‘self talk’ and then transcribe a potential ‘self talk’ with all those big four brought forth, how would they be different… just wondering about how things would be different on the verbal steam ‘axis’ PS Kiwi, it’s inspiring to me that you have transcended ‘story’… just curious, did you develop that or were you that way from birth?

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Where did you get that? …not insinuating that any noobs are wrong at all… The only 'wrong' I identified was when the one poster made the other poster wrong, instead of... With a ‘find your own way!’ orientation, about the only mistake one can make is to lock into that someone who knows and can show you is ‘out there’ or that the way of reading the market, etc. is ‘out there’ ...am also honoring the multiverse of perspectives (and ... acknowledging the commonalities)

Update: …still proceeding through my experiences of "Session 3"… by now I may completely off the reservation :rofl: One thing I notice is just how inactive, sans ‘intervention’, some of the big four can be in a typical session or string of sessions Another item of note is just how disparate my pre existing gestalt of the arch’s are from Rande’s (and his students that I have contact with.) for one, mine is a developmental orientation… but the differences go far beyond that at times… General question. If ____ and ____ archetypes were (generally more) active / available / less disowned, would my ‘stream of content’ be different? What would it sound like?

noobs, re: “A few things wrong with this article” http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/12081-close-bar-meaningless-13.html#post139913 This is a perfect example for ‘find your own way’. Is amatulic wrong? No. Is StreetCoup wrong? No. ... only real ‘wrong’ was making StreetCoup’s way, or any one else’s way, wrong and his way right. It’s individual representational system dependent! Find your own way!

Dan, Don’t have time to write any code but maybe this will help… One way to approach this would be move your HA calcs to a function that returns 1 for up, -1 for dn, (and 0 for neither) . (btw I do have a modifiedHA function that does the binary return mentioned above plus the HA high, low, etc via numericref – PM me with an off forum email that will take attachments if you need it.) Load your pairs to a chart via data1, data2, etc. (or use the newer oo priceseriesprovider data objects) and save the HA for each data# to an array when barstatus(#) = 2. Then run your decoupling comparisons via loops through the array. btw…speaking of correlation HA correlates extremely well with ema - so for this type of study you could use the closing direction of ema as well. hth

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Great article, StreetCoup. It’s good to see some others found it helpful. A few (hopefully) supportive comments... I have done a smattering of posts in alignment with this theme. In http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/beginners-forum/11735-need-direction-2.html#post137295 etc. , current educational paradigms were indicted, but it really goes deeper than enculturation. It goes to human consciousness… My longtime mantra to noobs has been “find your own way!”. This seems to be a good place to finish that out a little bit (since I don’t have the inclination, need, or focus to go all Big Golden C and craft completed publications, etc.). Paralleling the ‘education’ angle mentioned above, it’s along StreetC’s “defy the typical learning curve” . The typical “learning curve” involves placing process up hierarchy from vision. Most noobs in this ‘you create your own world, your own rules’ game (that trading is!) first seek and choose processes, assuming they have determined what they want. False assumption! Then most noobs then use those processes (‘new to you’ methods, techniques, shortcuts, indicators, etc.) to speculate about what they want and then get trapped in those very processes ‘forever’ – almost inevitably coming to use them as ways to avoid discomforts, for self sedation, conflict minimization, conflict manipulation, etc. How do you spell loosers at the core ? … So if you’re going to “find your own way!” / “defy the typical learning curve” first develop a vision of what you really want Start (or re-start) with NoThing. In the beginning, ( and if necessary, in any ‘new’ of your fresh beginnings), consider what you want completely independently of consideration of process and completely independently of it’s rational ‘possibility’ . Separate what you want from what you think is possible! ( because the only time you really know if something can be created or accomplished is when you have done it. Everything else is just limiting speculation! ... and no, this isn't new age positive thinking bulsht...). As you traverse and explore multiple representations of the markets, form concepts (see StreetCoups 3rd and 4th paragraphs above as an example of one possible way of doing that..) Then, from those concepts, allow and assist a vision (different from concepts!) to be formed of the trader and trading you choose to naturally manifest. … However you naturally do it - the essence is build an individually generated foundation in REALITY… ( which is very often far, far removed from many noobs’ initial concepts of market ‘reality’ BTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ) …along similar lines …The market does have a “language” – but it talks differently to you than it talks to anyone else on this whole planet. There are, of course, common perceptual schemas, but you best leverage others’ perspectives and knowledge through your own vision becoming manifest… …more similar lines… The processes (‘new to you’ methods, techniques, shortcuts, indicators, etc.) do have a purpose, function, and a time -but that comes much later in development. You will need to include process. But, deliberation on process best comes when it can serve the manifestation of your vision. With vision really up hierarchy from process and with vision operating as a factual, organinzing principle, you will literally innovate and attract methods and teachers instead of having to seek them! All the best ... about 3 % will really get this... and, ironically, about 3% will thrive at trading...

what happened to the solution to all this they worked out last summer?

What is going on in here? Rande asks if we’re “far enough from Denise…?” (yet). and, Suiya, why do you wanton “screw Denise”? I’m pretty sure she’s moving on out of that stage of her life now. Am I missing something about her or her thinking? Haven’t read any of her books. Don’t know if I’ll ever get around to reading it but I am ordering her latest book just to see what is evoking the heck out of … What’s the charge? … and, no, it’s not just … more is going on than that.

Tradewinds, ...tighten up your helmet straps...because "Victory destroys knowledge." DanJohn

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Have only skimmed a couple pages of the thread so maybe someone already made similar comments. God I hope so… The close of a bar is meaningless AND The close of a bar is meaningful It’s individual representational system dependent! But herein we have a bunch of ‘thoughts’ posted without much grounding in the individual’s perceptual framework behind it – and if there are ~20 posters and 1000 readers then, by golly, there are 1020 different perceptual frameworks, yet more than half the posts ignore or assume that everyone just automatically understands or even worse, assume that those differences don’t matter, or even more worser, assume that those differences don’t even exist! – Now, that is meaningless. Peeps, if we continue to be so ‘bias’ blind and so blatantly non-specific, TL will become just a mini ET… Then we have a bunch of impressions of the value of the close in systems and coding, again and similarily, without much grounding in the underlying systems. The close of a bar, on ANY timeframe or bar type does remain what it is at base – just another price point. But, the ‘close’ is not useless in a system that needs discreet, scheduled ‘snap-shot’ measurements instead of continuous stream. Coded systems ‘prefer’ those discreet, scheduled ‘snap-shot’ measurements, so continuing with that thinking, the ‘close’ is not meaningless or useless in a system where the close can somehow acceptably proxy for or complete the effects/outcomes of the whole previous period that just ‘closed’. Conversely, the close is meaningless or at least no more meaningful than any other price print if other intrabar data points are actionable in the system. All the bar types, doms, time and sales, profile ‘distributions’ are our own best personal representational systems for the ‘auctions’. Ie the map is not the thing mapped! Hopefully most of the thousand readers are doing serious inner work aligning their representational system to their own perceptual type/profile, instead of assuming, the standard consensus charting methods, the bars, etc. really are the market… Hopefully, we haven’t influenced anyone to come to discount the close if it actually should be ‘meaningful’ in their world … And vv ...Hopefully, we haven’t influenced anyone to come to represent the close as something more than it really is if it should be just another price print in their world. … either of those would be worse than meaningless and useless…

.. again, Training to literally not experience those four is quite different from training to cope with them when they come up. Which way are you talking about? ... also, would you please refer me to a psycho-analyst in the industry? ... not being critical... and if you just want to keep the topic casual just don't reply ... I'll understand.

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TheNegotiator, These are all ‘effortless high performance worker’ traits… yet I meet so many good traders who tolerate no talk of parallels of physical skills and athletics with trading … we even have a few on this board. What’s up with that ??? re: “…I believe this is a great way in which to practise trading.” What do you mean by ‘practice’ trading? Training to literally not experience those four is quite different from training to cope with them when they come up. Which way are you talking about? Also, negoc8r, I’ve not seen ANY psycho-analysis on this board. Can you explain for me or give an example of what you mean by “psycho-analysis of traders these days” Many thanks. I bring these questions because - The only truly effective and for sure consistent, way I have found to allay Fear is with proper sizing for my capitalization (in both excursion (/trend) and reversion methods, btw). I;ve found that all the mental trickery temptations that would keep me within 'tolerable' levels of Fear damage my bottom line too much. I have not alleviated Surprise at all and as long as I’m still initiating any ‘leader’ trades (which about 20% of my trades are) I don’t see my ‘surprises’ ever going away. I don’t see my ‘surprises’ ever going away for the ~80% of the following / reacting / responding to market circumstances trades either. Also, for some methods, I consciously and unconsciously ‘project’ two or three possible maps for a time period and am continually Surprised that none of them were accurate, etc… I can see where No Hesitation is definitely apt to Samurai level sword fighting, but quite often, Hesitation puts me into a better position than I would have had I slashed on in to the position…a related example - for certain situations in tennis, they teach you to commit and ‘make a move’ one way or the other… yet in those same situations often the appropriate ‘move’ is to Hesitate / ‘hold the center’ and force the onus of precision onto the opponent, etc. Experiencing palatable Doubt during ~ 30% of my trades has not kept me from surviving and thriving in this game... were the samuria dealing with morphic emotional fields of crowds? etc.

Short answer - No. Long answer - No. ...minimum character count for a post reached yet?