zdo

goodoboy, re Since you have "come to [the] conclusion its all discipline" please clarify how you are using the 'd' word... trading discipline - applied to what specifically When is it applied? And for how long? thx

Wow, JohnW . Excellent! Deep insights. I’ve always kept it too brief… just said “If you have to apply discipline more than once or twice a month in your trading, then something is off with the match between you and your methods”. Now when someone asks me wtf I’m talking about, I will just refer them to your posts in this thread. Thanks.

Is Commitment Enough to Succeed? This is probably a question which is more broadly applicable than to just trading and it would probably be helpful to hear from those well versed in current (not always necessarily correct though) views in the field of psychology. Is it enough to be just very committed at something in order to become successful at it whilst not having bucket loads of natural ability and possibly more importantly, the passion for it? I would note that by success I mean replicable positive results, not necessarily be at the very top of the tree so to speak. My feeling is it depends. Probably a great deal on the type of guidance the individual receives. I think that natural ability is only fulfilled with commitment. Clearly therefore, there will be some individuals with very little need for external influence to experience some degree of success. Yet there will be some who are extremely committed who lack the flair and intuition (or whatever you want to call it but please, that's a different thread!) to know what they should be doing and there are those who have the flair and so on but not the commitment. How important do you consider each factor? … in this thread, I still get the feeling diff posters are using the ‘d’ word in different ways (and carrying on as if we aren’t) . It’s Negotiator’s thread, so ideally he would differentiate and clarify just a little bit … so re: What’s interesting? And application of what? When? And for how long? (And when not? And how long would be too long? etc.) (dang… and I thought I was vague )

Negotiator, Which ‘discipline’ are you talking about? Applied to what? At what point? Here’s why I ask ie In the replies already posted at least three different ‘uses’ of the word have come up. In my illustration taking off on the OP, I left ‘motivation’ and ‘passion’ in the same sentence because of sufficient differentiation btwn them… Please make the same qualities of differentiation in the various ‘disciplines’ and ‘places’ and 'durations' they are applied in trading before we jump into attempting answers. Thanks.

(even though this was cleared up for us by an anti-semite…) Whew I’m so glad to hear that everything’s all better now … numbers weren’t massaged at all … and they have never been massaged because the BLS has always maintained such high integrity… those stupid suspicions that the rule of law is dead in the U.S … been put to bed forEver… …and the economy is healthy again… numbers, massaged or not, had nothing to do with the increase in the quantity of ppl employed via ‘part time’ so companies can evade coming ‘oCare’ requirements and early holiday hiring… and the JOLTS data means nothing … and that now unmentionable fire without a flame, charles hugh smith-Energy Higher, Earnings Lower -no longer a factor :smellyface: …any concerns from ‘In the space that has no gravity’ like Guest Post: The Many Guises Of Financial Repression | ZeroHedge are probably moot now ...still think nothing is going to protect you from darkness? Wake up! You just haven’t bought into all the ‘jobs creation’ talk yet charles hugh smith-The World's Largest Money-Laundering Machine: The Federal Reserve Frederic Bastiat, 1850 (oh he’s anti-christians too? …am still glad he cleared things up for us…tptb are blameless)

bump (superfluous char count piled up to minimum needed yet)

Colonel B, I understand your disagreement about the order of progression. I even wish you were 'right'. And don’t worry, your position is safe in the big crowd… only a tiny few will ever consider challenging it. However, across many years and in many contexts, I have been exposed to and have observed with ongoing curiosity the paths of over 2000 developing traders – and I’m reporting that the preponderance of that small percentage who do survive and thrive do it close to the way I described above for Horace, et al, …and, btw, for sure you won’t find them “just hook[ing] up with a bunch of other failing do-it-yourselfers and your in business” (or falling for similar traps being alluded to in the distractions and ‘discounting’ attributions made in your post and elsewhere.) For the most part, those who make it tend to go through a ‘playful’, open, beginner's mind, experimental phase, then rather quickly progress to settling in to seek and find their own way first, then add in ‘continuing education’, tips, tricks, insights from teachers who use similar methods, then they are ready for a mentor. The rest are losers – period. They wouldn’t be saved even if the “main problem in the retail community”, loser trading education vendors suddenly all vanished and were replaced by excellent ‘beginning swimmer’ instructors. Starting them in ‘trading kindergarten’ won’t help – because they can never ‘start’ inside themselves. The equivalent of a trading ‘lifequard’ (or even a high quality instructor in the basics beforehand, ) won’t help them survive. For these reasons (and others), I continue to challenge any and all guidance leaning toward attempting to apply parallels btwn trading education and the paradigms of ‘normal’ education. Again, don't worry - only a tiny few will ever disagree with you. All the best, zdo

All things must end… :missy: Two Charts To Strike Fear In The Heart Of Euro Bulls | ZeroHedge third ‘sign’ in as many weeks that the simple and highly profitable tactic ‘behind’ this thread of selling into EUR strength may have run its course… at least must be applied more selectively going forward… :haha: but btw - EUR is still trash...

Post of the Month winner! Hands down... let's resume voting in November

Color me excessively cynical … and… I’m sorry to have to break it to you etc, etc. but when the risk / reward of current exposure and revenue potential shifts to the point where it’s ‘better’ to take the clients’ money - it’s best to just assume they will choose to take your money regardless of reputation regardless of longevity regardless of location regardless of size AND REGARDLESS OF ‘REGULATORY AGENCIES’ :helloooo: Honest and Broker cannot be in the same sentence together. In a previous lifetime I was in the brokerage business… got acquained with many firm principles of all types of 'brokerages' got out, primarily for these very reasons.

In the posts above, and actually in posts in all forums, and in developing traders’ thinking all over the world, mistakes and losses tend to get mished together… Each trader, for his or her own sake, needs to work to make the distinction between losses and mistakes as clear as a high quality cut diamond. Continually analyzing what you did wrong is a mistake. Get over it! But the “getting over it” of the nearly angry, etc, dismissive type won’t really get you over it! That level of “Get over it” will not get you to genuine ‘probability thinking’ (and accompanying mindsets) One way to do this is to take the attitude that it is impossible to make a mistake on the entry. Obviously, this is more apropos and seamless for certain edges than others…still…regardless of the degrees of discretion - weigh this and that, factor in whatever, etc. etc. and accept your decision … “get over it” beforehand! When you ‘get that’ ie can ‘execute’ it internally and consistently, then progress to take on the attitude that it is impossible for you to make a mistake on the exit. For most, the one unbreakable rule becomes to ‘get over’ the ‘risk seeking in losing positions’ bias… but each individual has other traps in this area too … anyways , for each edge progressively remove the ambiguities in your own rules of factoring and weighing … however simple or complicated it is.. ( and complicated / many conditionals is ok btw. )… to where you really “Get over it!” - by getting over it beforehand Then you’re left with a mind rarely occupied with mistakes… the losses are just losses – trades that simply did not work out as they might have. (but btw !!!!!!!!, I’d be lying if I told you truly getting to where you were very predominantly ‘opportunity seeking’ instead of ‘threat vigilant’ is simply a mental process … but that is beyond scope of this thread) … And then you’re left with the sizing issues / mistakes Obsidian was discussing above. Anecdote: I mentor already successful traders with 5+ yrs experience… my easiest ‘mission’ ever was accomplished by suggesting to and helping one trader simply custom shape a sizing algo to his edge probabilities consisting of a larger, fat bottomed, geometrically thinning, pyramid (looks like some of the reactor cooling towers) for his with trend entries; and a smaller/shorter, inverted, pyramid for his contra trend trades. (an example only! … this was specific to his system and ways and capitalization!) But generally speaking - sizing mistakes can be ‘gotten over beforehand’ too! Highly capitalized or not… ANYONE can do it! OandA … all my mentorees (sp) ‘regress’ to OA’s infinite sizing for a time… negoc8r, re: “point of diminishing returns for this kind of work (and actually the relationship inverts).” Got time to explain that further? thx study the markets (including via trading) and change your representations of the auctions until you find an edge…or two… or three … or four then seek the guidance of others who have a very similar edge(s)… THEN and only then seek a mentor so re: “…no where to be found” diligently prepare, and when you are prepared, then diligently seek a mentor.. “When the student is ready the teacher appears”. … and that is not just ‘spiritual bag’ bulsht…. btw ‘diligently’ = just keep asking

:haha: “you might be a conspiracy theorist if you…” believe any of these current examples charles hugh smith-The World's Largest Money-Laundering Machine: The Federal Reserve The Inflation Rate Is A Lie Too - BlackListedNews.com ...on topic sort of... How the Feds Can Take Your Property: Forfeiture $6 Billion Business for Feds - BlackListedNews.com Hegemony and Propaganda: The Importance of Trivialisation in Cementing Social Contro - BlackListedNews.com Your right to buy and sell the goods you own may be under assault ? due to ?copyright.? - BlackListedNews.com preface: wink wink Stock Market, Gold, Penny Stocks, Small-Caps, Blue Chips, Investments, Economy, Profit Confidential funny now… Rep. Kelly Keisling emailed Obama false flag assassination rumor but… Did you believe any of them? Just one and “you might be a (trivializable) conspiracy theorist…

…like a ranting stone I personally don’t think it is conspiracy thinking or even cynical to believe that almost every report ‘number’ released for ALL the decades they’ve been coming out was doctored for political / ‘economic’ motives. Politics? Let’s not limit it to false dichotomy politics. The prevailing paradigm progressively broadens what ‘conspiracy’ thinking is… Now, these days virtually anyone who makes a gesture supporting ‘freedom’ and away from ‘collectivism’ is at risk of getting the label. "~The majority of people seem OK with just waddling through life, accepting the lies and misinformation blasted from the boob tube and their various iGadgets by their collectivist owners, gorging themselves to death on Twinkies and Cheetos, paying 15% interest on their $10,000 rolling credit card balance, and growing ever more dependent on the welfare/warfare state to provide and protect them from accepting personal responsibility for their lives. A minority of critical thinking people have chosen to question everything they see and hear being spewed at us by the propagandist mainstream media.~" paraphrased from Jim Quinn DECLINE, DECAY, DENIAL, DELUSION, & DESPAIR « The Burning Platform and btw, claims to be neither – to not be in the ‘majority’ nor in the ‘minority’ mentioned above - won’t work much longer… ranting stone … the good conspiracy theorists are not concerned with the nature of or when they will happen… they are concerned with how many false flags will occur before election… and the survey says...

Unsolicited :spam: Plug Archetypes - In tales, they can be taken into the forest and abandoned… they can be stunned into latency by spells and potions, etc etc… Archetypes - For each (type of) human activity we humans carry out, there is a constellation of best focus of attention, body flow (or lack of it), neural processing, emotions, attitudes, (and if we must,beliefs) we bring to that activity. Steve46 mentioned maturity. Archetypal expression is typically developmentally / stage / age specific to a high degree. Yet, as templates for our humanness, it is possible to access and express them to some (and even full) degree at any age. For example, it is possible for a young boy or girl to bring forth genuine acts of warrior or parenting or … – not for long – but the point is, ‘it’s’ in there. Otoh, whether the trader is “mature” or not, it is also possible to be blinded to / blocked from access to one or more of these archetype pal constellations. ‘It’s’ in there – but for many different reasons, one can’t get at it, experience it, express it, in a consistent and reliable instrumental way. (Re &) Establishing availability of and connection to a set of these context specific strengths is Rande’s work. This way not for everyone. …And it’s equally important to say - it is indispensable for some if they are ever to thrive as traders! In my experience, the best traders, the anecdotal ‘Wizards’, do not need or avail themselves ‘coaching’. But many ‘very good’ traders and below could profitably avail themselves some ‘coaching’. Protocol prerequisites: (imho) > blessed with some imagination (at least a 2.5 on a scale of 1 -10 ) > willingness to (learn to, if nec) be with and fully experience emotions. One constraining ‘trap’ that holds many ‘rationals’ back from such work is seeing it as simply emotional “control” or even emotional “modulation”. That is a very limiting, 'mind bound' view of ‘sympathetic’ arousal processes, etc, etc… sophomoric at best. > … and closely related – some courage… mostly courage to delve in before you have any confidence, courage to regress, and courage to persevere when a behavior doesn't supply immediate and obvious success. > imo, those entering should make a minimum 6 month commitment. The work is developing ready access to +4 ‘main’ and +2 ‘minor’ archetypes. Generally, for most individuals, within a period of weeks 60 - 80 % of the whole will fall into place via pre-existing ‘competence’ / access . But the remaining percentage will be shadowy and require more intensive, guided work… ie one of two of the members of the ‘inner archetypal trading team’ will require extended, individualized work to really get a reliable integration … individualizd processes and challenges… and so individual requirements and results will vary…. All the best, zdo

All of us are conspiracy theorists now

re: Gary Smith's "20 years" .... Adaptation occurs - period "Only in crisis do human beings actually change anything... " charles hugh smith-The Positive Power of Crisis

Suby, re quantifying what is your ideal ? what makes it ideal ? how many price changes in each quant_ ? ie tf ? etc ... how would you use it ?

the whirlings are how first creation looks cc: bobcollett

re: "another solution" ... If the MA from daily is all you need, you could use GlobalVariable ... or make the daily Data2 ... it's too many bars to tranlate the 50 day MA to the 5 min. chart. but some tf's are amenable to such machinations. For a possible ADE solution, have you tried using a 1440 minute chart instead of the daily? (or minutes = session length for your instrument(s) instead of 1440) ( btw, you would have to calc new proper length of your MA to match 50 period on daily chart) hth

re the subtopic on interest/noninterest accts : What about just scaling back (and slowing down) ... and ordering and sending checks via snail mail to maintain relative 'balance'... ?

fwiw, lifted 60% of USD/INR shorts earlier this morning ... probably it's a bit early, but... placing an array of sell orders above and (for now, far) below to re-enter... ideally will move/creep those stop entry orders that are below back up close to price I like this play because, if you hold it for some time, the interest income ameloriates much more of the risk than many other FX position trades...

... just gotta say it! Glad 'Milton' did change FX , etc etc ... but, in effect, he was still a Keynesian and re "the 0.1 % wins again ! " Dancing on the Grave of Keynesianism - Gary North - Mises Daily

Negotiator (I understand your rant, but ) Consider a comprehensive approach : Simultaneous Trader Development and Systems Development, resulting in Trader/Systems Synergism. Trader Development Of course. Many, if not most, ‘grail seekers’ should not be attempting to become traders. For 1), they will likely never embark on Trader Development, explicitly or even implicitly. Systems Development Even assuming some prior virtuous personal development, randomly handing a trader a high profit system is the equivalent of giving him a high paying job and hoping he is suited to doing the job… and that he will make the most of the job by improving the systems and processes he is responsible for. This doesn’t often work in non trading jobs... doesn’t often work in trading either. Maybe you, negoc8r, would and could “learn to be f*&%!£g brilliant at watching paint dry if it was something that would make me gazillions of $.” but unfortunately in the real world Systems Development is not a passive process. Example: Blve it or not, the original, unaltered turtle method will shine again… but for many years now, it has required ongoing adaptations to stay in the top tier of systems. “Finding you own way” is better because when you have found your own way you can better find and make the (mostly minor) adaptations and changes required to keep any real long lasting system in relative harmony with current conditions. … add the reality that most systems, even great ones, don’t make gazillions… … etc …etc and pretty soon the subjective realities of accepting and trading just any ole profitable system start to emerge. It’s not as much bs as your rant would have us blve. Trader/Systems Synergism Yes. The phrase “fits your personality” is incomplete and misleading. Personality need not even be mentioned… certainly not exclusively Instead, phrases like “…fits your character ” “…fits your perceptual ‘style’/’type’” “…fits your way of mental processing” each come closer to the mark, but still, even combined, do not complete the construct. Just accepting a given profitable system while neglecting the “…fits your perceptual ‘style’/’type’” part is a ticket to disaster … the guy who cleans airline cockpits may develop some knowledge of what the instruments and controls do, but he could not expected to ‘see’ it all correctly enough to reliably fly the plane, etc etc. Neglecting “…fits your way of mental processing” is not trivial either. … liken it to a sales person trying to do quality marketing or vice versa… enough… Negotiator, you seem to be favoring a short term, instead of long term, solution. The overall construct remains “ambiguous” because for all but a tiny few it’s a waste of time to elucidate and build out the principles behind it out. Concerned writers can describe it generally… but ultimately it is up to each individual to find his own way to and through each aspect of the comprehensive approach. Consciously combining Trader Development and Systems Development is the way to build a synergism where progress in one sets up requirement for corresponding progress in the other. It’s not easy to dig for and answer the tough questions – but it’s worth it. zdo

...just for snicks Ben Bernanke Just Told A Massive Lie About Milton Friedman | ZeroHedge

Basically same picture ... only hopefully more viewable bottom horiz line = coupling level from April left vert. line = end of coupling ends Sept 5 right vert. line = 're-stablizing' begins ~ Sept 18 top horiz line = 're-stablizing' (approx) level