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( thankfully ) here and there, others are starting to catch on Dems Sponsor Bill To Violate Fourth Amendment Rights Of Gun Owners : Freedom Outpost _________________ "Don't seek truth...."

ya'll brought this cultural sht up in the thread, not me ... and you tried to use it as 'reasons' to Disarm the (temporary) low is great ... meanwhile, non correlated gun count is still high - ( thankfully ) so, you've been making a fruitless gun control argument... parroting the corporate media shills... arguments published as 'truth'... ass nauseam they need you and your just special little dittos. _________________ "Don't seek truth...."

Another way of seeing it wasn’t all about a new ‘special’ mayors and ‘new attitude’ police, etc. in town: > daily life in a (temporarily) less violent ‘NYC’ = the stealthy ascendance of 1) institutionalized, unprosecuted “accounting fraud” and 2) first gubmnt carried the hedge ‘expenses’ for risks taken, then proceeded on to transferring the risks to taxpayers... etc These and other easy buttons in ‘tricking’ drastically reduced the need for ‘criminals’ to use force, violence, and weapons in taking . ( meanwhile > daily life in amerika = they drive to walmart… again…and again…’forever’...:doh: ) _______________________________ "Don’t seek truth… "

Thank you. Actually “R v W” is just as good of one of those ‘multiple reasons’ as the other stories and opinions being thrown up as the truth. We could also factor in the ease with which the ‘dependency class’ was allowed to grow, etc etc... SunGunner was pushing a single variable “point” that it was a shift in gov’t and law enforcement (while sneaking in as much ‘gun control’ propaganda as possible of course) that turned the crime tide in NYC. His opinions are not facts. ... he was not the only one "there" ... I don’t discount those gov't and enforcement variables one bit…but, a point he doesn’t seem to want to allow is that a leading, independent, top down shift in the criminal element culture also occurred – many crime orgs ‘matured’, went into ‘legit bidnes’ , etc etc etc. ... and, meanwhile - the argumentum ad populum used by the to Disarms that urban US is “safer” because of gun control is false. Through the whole period being discussed – all the pertinant gun counts stayed relatively stable.

more twisted reasoning in you ...and more word twisting from you... I didn't claim it was from the spread of more guns... I said the cultural changes - of which the factors we both mentioned are but a part - all occurred while the gun count (especially the illegal gun count) stayed relatively unchanged and high. ie a "safer apple" was from a cultural change and not the spread of less, less, and less guns

that mouse speak with forked tongue That is a very unrealistic “Perhaps” … in our real world outside of prison “tighter supply and control of supply” is a TOTAL impossibility – unless you could and would extend the same strictures on movement of goods and people as are imposed inside, but then that would no longer be outside of prison, would it? See where you’re really going with this? Peep–control- freakn yet?

You’re projecting again… the ‘leadership’ word was used alone in my post… if we must qualify it, ‘strong and mean’ leadership would be a much better qualifier than ‘good’ … clarifying points for anyone who can follow… murders in a prison have a much higher “clear” rate than in a city… leadership must control occurrences more because, it is vastly easier to follow the chain of a gang kill in prison back up the hierarchy in prison than it is on the ‘outside’ ... and for individually or gang planned murders, it is much ‘easier’ get implicated and have sentence extended, etc, etc. For example ChiTown only has about a 23% murder clearance / arrest / conviction – lazy corrupt cops, etc. - much lower than in prisons… on the outside the murderers are definitely more worried about vics who turn out to have parity than they are getting caught by the police. … and instead of "chorus" and other activities, the leadership is busy on the ‘control’ of the (much tighter supplies of) objects and less reliable / harder to 'reinforce' human agents … sometimes, MM, your Pollyanna replies are NOT comical… It is simply thick headed to think that if the murder rate really has changed across the ages because of weapons that suddenly we could put those technologies back in the box and fix anything. It is not comical to watch you focus all this energy into trying to stop future lanza’s that might “suddenly upset” you - by falsely associating those incidents with the all the violence in this culture, by trying to blame regular people for murders because some of us have guns, by thinking that taking our weapons would improve things “a little bit ”, and assert that would cause the murdering to fade away... Meanwhile, while you stay energized by driving by Sandy H and fixated on all the wonderful things you could fix if you could get 1 gun off the streets, you drive by and don’t do a dam thing about incredible damage done to women, children, and other family members every day by those who would use force to get what they want… go away.

For this argument, there are a few insights to be gained from the available ‘controls’ on studies of prison populations that aren’t available as controls in ‘free’ populations, but whoever used the word “asinine” pretty much nailed it. ... cabins in the woods ... prisons ... row houses ... whatever... if members (randomly) show up in the groups who will go 'over the line' then violence will go up... weapons or no weapons. Also, in contrast to the 'outside', the murder rate in prisons is influenced heavily by the choices of prison leadership – much more than the ‘controls’ imposed by the warden and guards and infrastructure…

"controlling" ? "not done" ? ... "done" On the surface of this post the apparent assumption is 'they' did something, anything to "control violence" which caused lower violence = hubris + more argumentum ad populum et ad nauseam ...meanwhile the number of illegal guns is as high as ever... 'Case in point NYC' - more likely the violent aspects of the culture in NYC changed on their own... not because of tough mayors or any of the other typical exciting stories told about how things change...

Not having an answer is ok … all along, this issue is far far more about ‘people control’ than about ‘gun control’.

It only appears to be better. You are billed to make you feel more secure, but you really aren't more secure... here we go again ... plus, the terrors and horrors can be easily rained down via other means... just stick around ... and the DHS will turn out to be much worse than just a total waste... back on topic... How far into the total gun supply would we have to go before it started making an impact on your gun deaths? A reduction of ?? %

Once out of the box… Once a technology is out of the box - it is out of the box. Once a high utility technology is out of the box, ‘legal’ controls will be largely neutralized. Producers will find a way to produce it. Consumers will find a way to procure it. (… and meanwhile, all the ‘legal’ controls are usually driven by other, less honorable, agendas than those stated.) Technologies rise and fall/ are replaced on their own. Once a technology is out of the box , manipping supply and demand, even taxing flow, is a fools game ultimately. Guns are powerful tools that can be used for good and evil, and until replaced by better personal weapons, the technology is out of the box… If supply is interrupted, substitutions will be found and applied. If high capac. magazines become ‘illegal’, a local machinist can fix that easily… without a printer… Internal combustion tech is out of the box… won’t be replaced until it is replaced… All sorts of drugs formulas - from brewing beer to making meth, etc - are out of the box and won’t go back in the box. If supply or ingredient supply is interrupted, substitutions will be found and applied… Remote wireless surveillance cameras are out of the box… Atomic weapon technologies are out of the box… hm some ‘gun control’ parallels at the sovereign level… and [snic] we should ‘disarm’ all our nukes now asap… all weapons really are pretty ugly, aren’t they ? …and now, drones are out of the box… To Drone or to Disdrone do you have a grone yet? 5 Homeland Security 'Bots Coming to Spy on You (If They Aren't Already) | Danger Room | Wired.com

It is no better than it was before. It would be just as easy now to create even more terror and even more deaths by suicide planes as it was pre 911

Both. I’m saying the better government that would “help” with this and other “issues” used as examples is simply unattainable at the this point… unrealistic… such 'programs' and interventions have been tried, failed, same tried again with 'better' funding, failed, new(same old) programs, failed… degrading rapidly now… not getting better at it... It’s just like this unrealistic ‘cause’ you’re hooked on…how much we would we have to “better” government to get any real traction is a lot like - How far into the gun supply would we have to go before it started making an impact on your gun deaths? A reduction of ?? %. These studies (that one side will vehemently resist) will not be effective … wasting our money on stats or whatever - anything the govt would “do” on this or the other issues would be geometrically LESS effective than ANYTHING you might do... which would also be very ineffective - unless you are working very locally, very diligently, very personally with the ‘at risks’ you drive by every day... instead of staying “suddenly upset” in your Lanza projections. Do what you will on this issue. Just don’t expect me to want to help pay for fake studies – for either ‘side’ of this arming issue.

Breaking News! Gun violence problem has now been solved Obama gun control executive orders call for CDC gun violence research, 17 years after 1996 NRA-supported freeze. Combined with their record in ending poverty, improving education, the war on drugs, curing disease, and ... the list of their accomplishments goes on and on... this puts the nail in the coffin of any remaining 'stupid' government talk

Government Research – beyond oxymoron Has it recurred to anyone there might have been legitimate reasons to “block” that research? Gov’t funded, clearly biased from the start, skewed testing and metrics already designed, plans already in place for how to massage the data to ‘create’ stats, without regard for all the variables not controlled for… all to get close to the result the ‘senator’ was looking for to begin with. Then after all that grant money is spent, which is never enough somehow – forcing them to take shortcuts, etc. , false correlations will trotted out to be used to support false premises and fake causations. All done, ostensibly, to control processes that don’t have a chance in hades of being controlled. “Let’s Pretend…” = more gov’t waste. Government research is much worse than an oxymoron. Please don’t tell anyone because I don’t want to be put off the drone list, but I would hope the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence could lease some members of congress to block similar government ‘research’ if it was blindingly clear the agenda and ends were pro gun lies…

Tams, ... we can't read your posts ... you only post pictures Let's associate some more you get associated with MM because you lik all his posts.

This 'association' game is one we all need to get good at. It is so supportive of getting at the real issues. ... and coordinates so well with LUMPING, etc. So... For TheDude, SunTrader, Tams, MightyMouse and other ‘to Disarms’, here’s a guy who will stand with you http://moonbattery.com/?p=25224 and I understand that Dormer guy is in the ‘to Disarms’ tank with you too. Hooray!

Who is this "you" in this sentence?

... and it's been good to see that you post matching 250 + word expositions everytime the gun haters whip out their lies, dam lies and statistics. ... very helpful with "good to keep a balanced argument."

Treating yourself like a statistic is the great way to end up being one. I argue that instead of approaching "COMPLETE ANSWER" to murders, instead of being a major factor, guns are hardly a factor at all. Murder events and ‘stats’ rise and fall on their own. ... with or without guns ...somewhat like in wars, etc. K.Ferdinand, the (his) story’s precipitating events are not the REAL precipitating events... False narratives repeated often enough may become accepted as truths... but they are still false. lies, damn lies,and statistics * 250 http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf

re "boogie man" If you can't tell me what it is, then how can you possibly attribute it others? re "A person who owns a gun is 250% more likely to be murdered by a gun than by any other means. Does that sound to you like you are safer with a gun?" Don B. Kates [underlining at end mine] MM, you should drop what you're doing and start up the MightyMouse Labeling Machine, Inc. You would succeed beyond your wildest dreams. I bet the first test of your first prototype would output a label that says "gun lover"... :helloooo: as I've said multiple times in here, I don't like guns at all. Yet you keep running around trying to stick that label on me. ...

There's a red herring fight in the Traders Lounge! :rofl: Looks like it's time to get word twist ridiculous again - like - the alcohol bans worked "over time" like - the marijuana bans "will work over time" and like - washington dc's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control. and - we must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a "boogie man" is paranoid. (MM, still waiting for correct definition of 'boogie man' btw) and - the more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals. and - an intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you and - guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20. like - police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity magazines than do "civilians" who must face criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition. like - we should tighten supply and drive costs up by banning "saturday night specials" and other inexpensive guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too. like - private citizens don't need a gun for self- protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection. like - "assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people. The police need assault weapons. like - the NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity. like - guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but revert to normal when the weapons are removed. and - the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in 1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates, which had been started significantly declining in 1991. Here we go with this odd little pattern again - Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics." Some day it may click for you - the 'stats' on violent crimes committed with guns rise and fall on their own - independent of gun "supply" mass atrocicities committed with guns rise and fall on their own - independent of gun "supply"

yep, and way back when, spirited drinks 'created' urban life and btw no killers drink wine or tea ie killers drink beer and coffee

“Nothing has changed.” SunTrader “That’s right. This government will never and would never attack its own people” TheDude “If all the guns were taken, the public would have nothing to worry about. ” Tams adds. “… all structures are fragile.” Nassim Taleb “What do you mean, Nassim? I thought you were anti-gun…” SunTrader The White House is ?Judge, Jury and Executioner? of Both Drone and Cyber-Attacks - Washington's Blog [Video] Police Shoot Man 3 Times Immediately Upon Entering House: Hayden?s Note & the Failed War on Drugs | Truth is Treason