zdo

Personally, I love TS charting and 'analytics' ... have used it from the beginning in early 90's ... But I avoid using TS as an FX broker because - Gain feed (still?) + spread + high commissions + matrix scrolls by smallest decimal(still?) = unpleasant trading for me I would not use TS at all if I were outside the US. TS cuts and runs at the first sign of regulatory or costs trouble for them offshore... example they just up and left Canada a couple years ago... ie keep shopping for best brokers and platforms there... check MultiCharts if you like TS features, language, etc... hth

... still not in as of Friday but have placed entry stops below as a contingency fwiw and not related to this thread ... am now also implementing 3% per dollar move plan in silver from post 43. Trailing stops in 'space' behind gold. In the short yen position, plan is to liquidate around USDJPY 88 (and equivalent in correlated positions). A small profit is locked in below ie would not and should not let position ever go into red going forward... True to 'biology' - I think mostly because it is such a huge position, but it is tempting to take profits now... especially the way the USSD is acting Ya'll have a great hyperinflationary and creeping deflationary weekend.

Precisely! Gaming is around the circle or table pretend trading. Instead of outcomes being determined by the global mkt, chance is conveniently substituted. The flow of play and strategies involved for each game of 'gaming' is limited to recreating certain real life market and trading situations. The games of 'gaming' one enjoys and is competent at can tell a lot about what style of trading he should go toward etc... Professional gamblers are actually not gamblers at all. They are traders adept at on the fly assesment of probabilities, other gamers, and sizing decisions... these days particularily, the level of skill and the individual's intrinsic rewards of that middle proficiency, reading others, determines whether or not they play at the tables or at the screen

If we folks gave you the impression that it is more "under control" than a very human series of temporary, tenuous 'under controls', the mistake is ours. Don't let our 'rantics' dissuade you from making your valuable contributions. ... and now continuing 'as you were'... Normal is terribly deterministic... what is helpful at one stage ( mantras, etc. such as 'treat trading as a business' , or 'keep it simple' ) will need to be dropped to get to the top... "... how to be aware in a situation that requires your unawareness, how to be conscious in a situation that happens only in unconsiousness..."

steve46, This is precisely what I mean by "find your own way" zdo. You’re sharing an edge and that’s great. But - if you were to ‘edgucate’ a thousand ‘traders’, I would bet only 1 or 2 of them stick precisely to that edge… ultimately the person and the edge must resonate. I’m going to keep telling traders to find their own edge that is true to their own nature. “people quite whining” and “fitting themselves to the job at hand” is to be controlled by circumstances and that will not work to sustain one into the higher percentiles of traders – ever! Trading is performance work not production work… This could be posted over to the why 90% are either loosers or losers thread… re backtesting – good points. However, re “most … don't have nearly the education required” - in testing (especially for automation), experience is more important than education. zdo

re "Show me one answer above or on any other site that shows you how to get an edge. Not one of them does. Why? Because it is not possible. You will get generalities, opinions, psychology, money management, stories, etc. No where will you find an edge." I see posts like “no edges are disclosed anywhere” or “it’s very hard without a mentor” There is a largely ignored reason the ‘industry’ has hooked up with the holy grail myth. Grail seekers are looking out there, to the other, whatever, for answers. The myth is about looking in all the wrong places. At any point, you can search ‘inside’ for the answers. “Find your own way.” That means realize that even if you were handed a highly profitable edge on a freakin silver platter, you would not make it work for you - unless by some small chance it was very compatible with your own nature. Kudos for being fed up with the BS. “Find your own way.”

Position Changes: None. Still long Silver… Still Flat YM (since 7/26) Comments: But not ditto again… soon is now... will be legging into short YM side of this spread over next ten days - preferably into strength... four more years left in this campaign... fwiw and not related to this thread Comments: Still inching arrays of hedging stops up under all other silver and gold positions. As my boy D. Gartman says ~ "the easy money in this pm move is probably close to over"

re "execute the strategy with precision & commitment, but keep your eye on the objective" ?? The underlying thread of this thread seems to be more like let the objective take care of itself, keep your eye on and execute the strategy with precision & commitment, ... one of the better ways to play most 'games'

Firm, The crowd will tell you "as simple as possible" A few will tell you complex 'problem' require complex 'solution' My thoughts - Your edges should be as simple or complex as you personally need them to be to stay true to your own nature. Find your own way! Have you read http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f37/edge-first-integration-first-both-first-8410.html ? Applying is not easy at all - but you may be ready...hth All the best zdo

"... our understanding of how the brain produces mind." Brain produces mind? Beware - that new paradigm could be one of those massively limiting blfs...

Thanks Rande. Great post. This 'validation' issue is part and parcel of why I bang on and on at http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f37/edge-first-integration-first-both-first-8410.html PS just an aside into humans... I stay amazed at how low awareness of this is with traders... even with those who assert how 'independent' they are... The one's for who this has never been an issue are the ones mostly likely to discount it ... On another hand, many ostensibly normal ppl are so deeply 'in', you could actively confront them with it and they still wouldn't immediately, if ever, come into any awareness of their external validation orientations

jaysmith124, re: " am going to start taking my medication soon. If ..." Do you really need meds that bad?

Position Changes: None. Still long Silver… Still Flat YM (since 7/26) fwiw and not related to this thread Comments: Inching arrays of hedging stops up under all other silver and gold positions now. Highest orders up to around 35.39 in silver but in gold they are all still stuck below 1378 Comment: Yen shorting campaign. Average price now well under 80 on the USDJPY long position… not exactly under ideal conditions (for the Japanee) … wishing them all the best over there. very interesting... http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-03/acs-dot031811.php

Imperfect. "history" is one way of looking at the incompleteness of data. For me, it's more accurate to look at it in terms of "representations" we each build of the actual auctions in process. The data itself is always incomplete, the tools we use to build visuals, etc.etc. , our brain balance in constantly rebuilding consistent and accurate perceptual 'maps' - with, as Qiman just discussed, the inevitability of some degree of bias

Steve, "I just reviewed my CQG software....no supply/demand indicator I reviewed my Esignal softwarre.....no supply/demand indicator I reviewed Sierra Charts list of technical studies....no supply/demand indicator" I reviewed my TradeStation softwarre.....it has a supply/demand indicator! Made it myself... Works almost as good as wetware...

“TRO - what you have done on this thread is spread your own thread all over the top of this one” Ingot, no one, no one, can NOT spread their own ‘thread’ all over the top of this one Nothing ‘scientific’ is going on here Ingot. Even if you could get a good sample of ‘traders’ in agreement to utilize those three indicators, it would not mean in any way that they would be on the same page with you on your 3 indicators. Just within a small sample of traders, a literal infinity of systems would emerge and mutate… I’m not saying this is a waste of your time at all, just pointing the dangers of assuming something ‘scientific’ is happening … Also, there is no pathology involved in any setups you may be investigating. Each one either profits or it doesn’t… welcome to the anti lab

Since we’re insisting on staying barely on topic --- Eric Berlow: How complexity leads to simplicity | Video on TED.com A great mentor will tell you nothing...

One of the pivotal ‘moments’ of my trading development was when it clicked at an operational level that trading is best seen as “Predator vs Predator” (zdo) instead of predator vs prey…. Direct side benefit - instantaneous resolution of the largest part of those mostly enculturation based ‘moral’ issues … OP it’s excellent that you’re confronting this. Many traders never even get into awareness of how that enculturation is conditioning/limiting their trading…as you get to know them you can start picking up the subtle suppressions diverting and wasting their energies… hth

… pulling it back on topic The very best ‘right coach/mentor’ will not tell you anything. Not a thing! The very best ‘right coach/mentor’ will only ask you special questions you do not have immediate rational answers for. Disappointed?

re "Now with the psychiatric end under management, he is able to build the emotional skill sets needed to manage mind while trading. " I don't know the exact situation but, in probabilities, Rande you may be deluding yourself on this one... best of luck with him anyway... never say never, etc...

DBCooper come out! DBP is (was) the best forum poster I have ever seen - even though we clashed more than once and I never liked his dam attitude about trading ‘syschology’. I would like to see him back. I doubt something outrageous would draw him out. Let’s try something milder: FX traders can trade via pure price action that follows (sans volume data and work) his same SR ‘points’ (my word not his). It’s not nearly as effective as with the Wychoff like volume work. but can be implemented via ‘breakouts’ from those areas with minimum risks and essentially same profit targets.

...also, for many, at a different level creating the ‘body’, the identity, to actually accommodate taking avg $xx per day is a harder, lonelier job than ‘learning’ how to do it technically...

up23, I base this whole post on one little tip off in your thread - the use of the word "determined ". Head off the to 'sychology' threads. Do some work 'off the field' before you play, not all of it 'during the game'. Else, several years later you'll still be vulnerable to the same initial patterns - not in the same exact ways or to the same exact degrees - but still at risk. It doesn't have to be that way. hth. sorry so short - gotta scoot. all the best, zdo

I've posted this in various forms several times - it bears repeating (as a general observation about the present conversation .) Traders can be roughly grouped into 3 categories 1 those who experience no limbic system disturbances from or in their trading activites, and no coincident cognitive imbalances 2 those who experience limited limbic system disturbances from or in their trading activites, and limited coincident cognitive imbalances 3 those who experience severe limbic system disturbances from or in their trading activites, and serious coincident cognitive imbalances. If you're in group 3 you want to move, to group 2 at least. And you need help. The vast preponderance of this help is in the form of self help, but at certain points in the process the 'being present' with you that a therapist can bring is pivotal. For some, serious but temporary regressions are part of the process - and those are definitely best done with an experienced quide. At other points in the process 'guided structured practices' can be pivotal. Then you have those who are on the face of it in level 1 who rattle on about sticking to a plan using disipline, etc etc - when that actually will not help IN THE SLIGHEST BIT (screaming in caps) in the 'groups' below the level of about 2.3. Some possible insights into why level 1s do this: Perfect example of the apex effect - to them such phenomena and experiences never even freaking existed!!!! (I know it happens bcse In a recent converstation I caught myself slipping into this place...) Also sometimes a perfect example of those who 'get into' group 1 by settling for performance and returns far below their potential to avoid the purgs and hell of of group 2 and 3. (I've used this 'way' to avoid fear and pain too,..) Others inately and/or by learning have such a huge emphasis on the rational that just about any hint of anything involving the irrational triggers their patterns. (No guilty of that one [why Kiwi called me insane. Ban him again :rofl: ] Anyways I do value trying to bring a healthy balance of the irrational and the rational. ) The outcomes of this lack of awareness include long posts rationalizing it away, discounting, even denigrating, those who are least trying to help others in groups 1 and 2 It's really kinda sad - they think they are helping when really they are delaying progress by insisting on a focus that only those in group 1 are really ready for.... ... and I do sometimes end up wondering who they are trying to convince... ... maybe some of them are at level 2 wannabe level 1

Simple, a few thoughts about your thoughts… Re: “new therapy” It is not a new therapy. Have you read the book? Re: “warm glow” Good point. Put a hundred traders in ‘trading’ therapy and odds are only 3 have any sustained benefit from it, and lord knows how many are actually damaged. But let’s take something else from that statement - If you are a therapand, beware any warm glow at the beginning, middle, or end of the therapeutic process. If you get a warm glow, your patient’s’ testing’ of the protocol (see below) should be over immediately… sure sign of wasted money and ultimate failure. Re: “…in real testing….” The ‘real’ testing of therapies in the APA industry is BS. The surveys make causative assumptions yielding seriously incomplete statistics which are then published as truth only to be discredited in a couple of years when it finally dawns on the testing community that wrong questions were asked and tallied…. Sufficient controls in real life are impossible, so to make attributions from stats like how many patients were better X months later is nonsense. For the psychological protocols, when the testing’s absurdities are realized, usually the protocol just simply fades away. Another good example of how the ‘real testing’ also usually consists of a pile of wrong questions are the AMA style drug trials - but instead of fading away, juicy class action lawsuits follow… It is more productive to turn it around and see it as each ‘patient’ testing the protocol ; not to see if it is an effective therapy generally for a whole population, but to see if it is a fit for a single individual in their current time, space, ... The patient is a better tester than are the proponents of the system. And then outcomes cannot be ‘statistically’ evaluated because each patient will generate a unique, non uniform, questionnaire and answers… Have you read Rande’s book?