Patuca

now guns are fun eh? but not useful for protection eh? you don't mind beating someones brains out with a golf club or de-gutting them with a butcher knife but be it far from you to harm them with a gun. a car too is an accident waiting to happen. you gonna stop driving it or taking any of your family members for a car ride? if someone steals your car and causes a wreck and someone dies then you should be held responsible for making you car available? maybe the gov should mandate every home have a lockable garage with alarm and an armed guard standing nearby. but wait that wouldn't work cause guns are banned. that is fine if you don't want guns in your home or even if you don't want to drive a car but don't try and mandate that the rest of the population believe or think as you do. your logic will break down everytime. remember with liberals it is about control and dictating.

LOL you liberals can close your sweet little eyes to the truth and the obvious to hang onto your deceptions and delusions. your ivory tower BS simply will not work in the real world. but if it would then i would be willing for the country to give it a shot. But everywhere they have tried it it never worked but that doesn't seem to faze you guys in the least. the truth apparently doesn't matter to your crowd just your ideas, concepts, and desire for control. liberals arent about liberation. they are about control. and they don't seem to have the capacity to even perchance take a peek beyond that window. there are many many more stories of guns saving lives than destroying them. as a matter of fact your ass is sitting somewhere, hopefully comfortable, in the USA because of someone willing to take up arms and defend people like you.

that is grasping at straws. i think most any reasonably sane person that had gun in that situation would have used it. the fact is there is no evidence anyone had a gun. if you had a gun and you were there would you have let him continued to openly and unrestrained shoot and kill people? i doubt any gun ban would have worked to have stopped the perpetrator. but say someone did have a gun and used it and stopped him then what would you say? i think we both know.

just the thought of eating 100 pounds of tuna almost makes me sick....chasing it with antibiotics...worse.

thanks for the compliment about my posts and ignot54 (although i might disagree over ignot's:)) however, i'm not so sure about some of your ideas. it took the most powerful army in the world (supposedly..wouldn't want to diminish our arrogance now would i) ....secret service...cia..high tech ...etc what 10 years to find one fellow over in pakistan that was well known and had his pictured posted all over the media. not so sure this gov could handle 50 or 70 million armed americans if they were to decide to revolt. i am certainly not advocating that but just have my doubts the gov could deal with them even with all their firepower...etc. we could barely do a 1/2 ass job in katrina. im not anti gov and i do think we need gov but the framers of the constitution may have known what they were doing when they made sure the public could have the right to bear arms.

Two stories and the media response This is the story you saw on the evening news: At lunch hour on Wednesday, Oct. 16, George Jo Hennard of Belton, Tex. smashed his Ford pickup through the plate glass doors of Luby’s cafeteria in Killeen, injuring some patrons immediately. While other patrons rushed toward the truck believing the driver was a heart-attack victim, Hennard calmly climbed out of his pickup, took out two 9-millimeter semi-automatic pistols, and started shooting people in the cafeteria’s serving line. Hennard continued shooting for 10 minutes, reloading five times. One of his pistols jammed repeatedly, causing him to discard it. There would have been plenty of opportunity for any of the cafeteria’s customers or employees to return fire. None did because none of them were armed. Texas law forbids private citizens from carrying firearms out of their home or business. Luby’s employee’s manual forbids employees from carrying firearms. Police officers were inside Luby’s within minutes. But before they were able to corner Hennard in the cafeteria’s restroom, where he turned his gun fatally on himself, Hennard had killed 15 women and 8 men, wounded 19 and caused at least five more to be injured attempting to flee. The Killeen massacre was ready-made excitement for the media: a madman with a gun, lots of gruesome pictures. CBS News devoted an entire “48 Hours” Dan Rather report to it. Sarah Brady of Handgun Control Inc. capitalized on it in a nationally published column to call Congress cowardly for voting down more stringent gun laws the next day. Now here’s a story you probably didn’t see: Late at night on Tuesday, December 17, two men armed with recently-stolen pistols herded 20 customers and employees of a Shoney’s restaurant in Anniston, Ala., into the walk-in refrigerator Postal clerk Terry was finishing a late-night dinner with his wife when the robbers came in and took over the restaurant. Terry hid his .45 Colt Government Model under his sweater, not seeing any immediate opportunity to use it. Terry’s wife was captured with the other customers and herded off to the cooler, where one of the robbers proceeded to collect wallets and jewelry. Terry did not hide under a table; he had separated himself from the other customers and managed to get to a back door in the Shoney’s to see if it was open so he could escape and call the police. The door was chained shut. At that point one of the robbers discovered him and when the robber drew on him, Terry pulled his own handgun from under his sweater and returned fire, incapacitating this robber, who ultimately survived. The second robber heard the exchange of gunfire and also drew on Terry; it was the gun fight between Terry and this second robber which resulted in the robber running out to the parking lot, where he died from his wounds. It was at this point that Terry told the store manager to phone the police, informing them that an armed customer was present; Terry then proceeded to the cooler and released his wife and the other customers. Both robbers whom Terry shot had previous armed robberies on their record, and one had murdered a motel clerk just a few days earlier. A third robber escaped as soon as Terry exchanged gunfire with the first robber. The only national media outlet to cover this incident as news, just two months after the Killeen restaurant massacre, was the Christian Science Monitor. source: excerpts from Stopping Power by Neil Schulman

the one problem we have in the USA is the mainstream media.they won't jump on stories where are civilians kept mass shootings from happening. so we really on get one side of the story..very often..all this is meant to sway our thinking on gun ownership. like ron paul who actually had some pretty good ideas was ignored by the media..didn't look like a winner (americans can't stand a loser) so the image printed into the minds of americans about him was he is an ole crazy man. a jackass. when really much of what he predicted has come to pass and he actually had some ideas that were based upon the constitution. most americans only know two things about the constitution/bill of rights. 1) freedom of expression 2) right to bear arms. so all the debates really aren't about issues that need to be solved and how we can really solve them with pragmatic solutions or constitutional issues but it is all about a public fight and to see who can spar the best and who looks like a winner. is my candidate gona win? I have to go with the winner...well that is the attitude. winning is more important than solving problems. the fiscal cliff is all a game. nothing will fundamentally change. we are on a course and our politicians are determined to continue on it. both parties. in 4 years we will owe 20 trillion regardless of the winner of this past election. in 4 more years after that 25 trillion and that is where the sh$t will start to hit the fan pretty hard.

btw i have traveled in honduras for years. in many of the most dangerous areas...you must be discreet..blend in..look local...take no shit...dont ask questions...slide in slide out. they respect .....no fear

just got back from Honduras (deadliest country in the world) Inside the world's deadliest country: Honduras - CBS News from a business trip on dec 22. i couldn't even take my pea shooter to such an environment as TSA and Honduras prohibits such items...so i was left with my karate skills and blinding speed for self defense. and of course i prayed. anyway while at the airport some american tourists came in and wanted to cut the line as they were about to miss their flight. no one would let them cut in. they went down the line almost begging so when they arrived at me i let them in. not to the pleasure of some of the people (but who gives a shit anyway). well come to find out they had been down to the mayan ruins for the "end of the world" which apparently didn't happen or we wouldn't have been in the airport. when the world didn't end they said they were there for the winter solstice. oh i wanted to laugh and i did but tried to be discreet as be it far from me to publically insult someone. anyway have any of you guys seen these sort of people? you know they literally lay on the rocks of these indians ruins and weep and cry and meditate? i have seen these sitting crossed legged in mayan territory arms held in the air meditating ..well i guess for hours...some how i guess they think that will bring peace to the world. i suppose they never heard of just banning guns. maybe we should appoint a task force to inform them?

actually tams i get the feeling you may be an american immigrated to AU??? if not please don't go into a tirade about not being a bloody american. i am just asking.

that is nice. glad to hear that life is like that where you live. perhaps aussies just aren't violent people? most everyone else seems to be regardless of what country you go to. been to many. lived in many. sounds like you have found the perfect society..neighborhood...once had a friend that went to cuba. he came back quiet impressed. said the USA could learn alot from cuba. had other friends go there however they had very little good to say about cuba. of course my friend was canadian..socialist and quite abit anti-american. we were friends then and still are. he called last night. had a good little chat with him. if banning guns would create a society in USA like where you say you live then i would be all for banning them. but i don't think that will work here. we americans are too violent. we were birthed in violence. americans like a fight. and we have to win. where do you live in in AU? maybe i'll immigrate. then again you guys may not want any of those "bloody" americans there?

it twas just a joke. i dont subscribe to what most people labeled liberal stand for but it doesn't mean i hate liberals. usually it is liberals that hate conservatives and generally have no qualms about letting them know their hatred for conservatives. i push the envelope abit myself sometimes but i know if i don't come out swinging liberals will mock and hate and try all kinds of personal attacks much like MM has done to me so i come out swinging. at the end of the day MM is what he is..you are what you are..i am what i am. and we have had some good arguments which is good for the brain cells. happy new year i still say one day you will wish you HAD A GUN. don't look for MM to help cause he won't be able to as he will be too busy hunting for a piece of cheese to eat...and ingot54 will be hiding with the kangaroos in the outback...zdo will be holed up with his weapons and none shall get close to him. i may be on the road on my moto with a pistol in each hand . db will still be dishing out sage advice on wykcoff or hiding in the arizona desert...smmatrix will have resisted till the end and fallen in battle..colonel B will be furiously battling the bad guys on video games all the time declaring them to be harmless. captain Bob will still be trying to figure out if we should trade long term or daytrade. mitsubishi will still be ranting and raving about spread betting not being gambling and posting charts with precise mathematical formulas as the perfect way to trade. wind bag Why? will still be harping on Taylor.

seems like you made mention of such things first as you were counter punching at me. i know you are just trying to jab back for my little arguments so i'll let your nonsense pass as an attempt to say "buscar venganza". however..it was only a joke so you may calm down.

sh$t MM i was just thinking if we could have mandatory castration for liberals...well...soon....well you know...it could be a non violent way to solve the gun problem since it may be mostly liberals doing the killings....

mm don't you think there shoul be a ban on sex? perhaps institute mandatory castration? or limit the size of testicles males can have? or limit the amount of testicles? it might cut down on violence you know??? with that ugly sh$t ass beard of ignot54 he has nothing to worry about. he has nothing to get violent about. on the other hand who knows maybe the gals like his beard?? happy new year

i basicaly agree with all most everything you say in your post. i think there might be SOME correlation with video violence but not near as much as advocates claim. i grew up shooting BB guns (at each other sometimes..etc) and playing games where toy guns were involved but it hasn't made me go out and murder piles of people. on the other hand if a person is already sick mentally then such games could perhaps hold some infuence on them. this said i do think it could come to a place where more guns could equal safer. and that has proven out in some cases. i posted a link to. and i also posted where bans didn't actually lower violence. your last sentence sums up about what i think and feel about the matter. i dont think all the assault guns are needed but you have to watch out because i believe they are after getting all the guns not just assault guns. that i would be dead set against. have a good 2013 although i think it will be very trying times economically the next 2 years.

ingot please indicate where any major structural fundamental change in society (any society) took place without any violence being involved. i am sure there must be some?

damn i was sure you would be beardless by now ingot54

From Gun Control: I was surprised to learn that two of the best-known promoters of nonviolence in history were not opposed to guns. Indeed, Mahatma Gandhi taught that we must first be brave enough to use guns to defend ourselves, and only then can we be qualified to use non-violent methods. For example, Gandhi wrote in his book, An Autobiography (page 446): Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest … if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. As Gandhi wrote in Doctrine of the Sword: I do believe that where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence I would advise violence. *** When my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence. *** Hence also do I advocate training in arms for those who believe in the method of violence. I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honor than that she should in a cowardly manner become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor. In Between Cowardice And Violence, Gandhi wrote: He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully … [When violence] is offered in self-defence or for the defence of the defenceless, it is an act of bravery far better than cowardly submission. *** A man who, when faced by danger, behaves like a mouse, is rightly called a coward. Not knowing the stuff of which nonviolence is made, many have honestly believed that running away from danger every time was a virtue compared to offering resistance, especially when it was fraught with danger to one’s life. As a teacher of nonviolence I must, so far as it is possible for me, guard against such an unmanly belief. Self-defence … is the only honourable course where there is unreadiness for self-immolation. As quoted in the Seattle Times, May 15, 2001, the Dalai Lama said: If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. Not at the head, where a fatal wound might result. But at some other body part, such as a leg.

well you cannot totally eliminate that possibility but what is a better option? wolves voting on lunch and an unarmed lamb?

From Gun Control: The Second Amendment had more to do with freedom than historical militias. Here’s what the Founding Fathers actually said about arms: Laws that forbid the carrying of arms, disarm only those who are neither inclined, nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants. They serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. – Thomas Jefferson, 1764 What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms. – Thomas Jefferson Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn’t. – Ben Franklin Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property… Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them. –Thomas Paine A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government. – George Washington Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun. –Patrick Henry. Are we at last brought to such an humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms under our own possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands? – Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 386. The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. –Samuel Adams, debates & Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87. The right of the people to keep and bear…arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country… –James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789). (The Constitution preserves) the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation…(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. –James Madison. If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government… – Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist (#28) . The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed. –Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-B. To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them. – George Mason The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. –Noah Webster, “An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (1787) in Pamplets on the Constitution of the United States (P.Ford, 1888) [T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or the state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People. – Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

you might want to locate mitsubishi. he is the professional spread betting gambler of the lot here. i am quite sure he can tell you exactly what happened and what you need to look at doing in the future. he might be hard to find as he disappears sometimes but he'll be back....just keep looking.

time for fessing up Please indicate yes/no to the following question. Do you own or have a gun in your home or premises (work...etc. or otherwise) 1) ingot54 2) suntrader 3) zdo 4) tams 5) johnw 6) Cory2679 7) Siuya 8)DbPhoenix 9) Mightymouse (with a name like that you better have one) 10) Predictor 11) SMmatrix 12) jimbo320 13) Colonel B 14) vince50 15) Madmarketscientist

you are correct. i too would do neither. i would get my guns and wait in the dark corner of my bedroom and let the bastard come to me.